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Help me Pick from Mics and Pres for Drums
Old 26th January 2018
  #1
Gear Addict
 

Help me Pick from Mics and Pres for Drums

Have a 3 piece project coming up. I have a basement studio with 7 foot ceilings and is only about 12 x 15. They have been filled with insulation and covered with acoustic cloth so that helps. I have a selection of mics and pres to record a 6 piece drum set plus guitar and bass. A friend has graciously loaned me his mic pre lunchbox. Here's what I have to work with.

Pres:
2x API512
2x OSA MP-1
2x Warm Audio WA12
2x Grace 101
1x Joe Meek VC3 pre&comp
8x Focusrite Saffire


Mics:
3x Neumann TLM 103
1x Audix D6
1x AKG D112
2x Octava MC012
1x Rode NT4 stereo XY
1x Sennheiser MD421
2x Shure BG4.0 condenser
Many SM 57 and 58
Many Sennhieser e604
Old 27th January 2018
  #2
Gear Maniac
I don't know those pre's to recommend (except API), and don't have several of those mics. I also don't know the genre of music you are performing.

With that being said, why not just experiment with some combinations of mic / pre. Start with your most important channels (likely OH) and then follow down to least importance for your project (maybe tom?). I have a large kit with many pre's and mics, and that really helped. Especially the mics.

For instance, I tried out NT5, NT5 modded, MK012 with HC capsule, and AT3031 for hats. By far, I loved AT3031 -- it was that big of difference. Test took maybe 5 minutes?

For kick, same thing. D6 and D112 -- also tested Midas XL4, Great River, API 512v, and BAE 1073 MP...choice was easy for me - D6 w/XL4. Again, a 5 minute test and now I don't doubt my choices anymore.
Old 27th January 2018
  #3
Gear Guru
 
monkeyxx's Avatar
I agree you seem to have a few similar choices of things for specific spots to audition between. Hopefully you have half an hour or more to do some testing.

e604 is an easy choice for me on rack toms. I'd probably put the D112 on the floor tom, though for a bigger bottom tom sound. This combo is what I use here.

If there's a hole in the kick maybe you can have one mic inside and one on the front head. I like blending between these as needed.

I would probably go with an SDC pair overhead. Either XY, spaced pair, recorderman, those types of configurations.

If the room sounds good maybe those TLM103 could pick up a good room sound.
Old 27th January 2018
  #4
Gear Guru
 
jwh1192's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tymish View Post
Have a 3 piece project coming up. I have a basement studio with 7 foot ceilings and is only about 12 x 15. They have been filled with insulation and covered with acoustic cloth so that helps. I have a selection of mics and pres to record a 6 piece drum set plus guitar and bass. A friend has graciously loaned me his mic pre lunchbox. Here's what I have to work with.

Pres:
2x API512
2x OSA MP-1
2x Warm Audio WA12
2x Grace 101
1x Joe Meek VC3 pre&comp
8x Focusrite Saffire


Mics:
3x Neumann TLM 103
1xc
1x AKG D112
2x Octava MC012
1x Rode NT4 stereo XY
1x Sennheiser MD421
2x Shure BG4.0 condenser
Many SM 57 and 58
Many Sennhieser e604
the OSA Pre's are very like API but have a slight more meat imho ..

57 for guitar amp
421 for bass amp

D112 kick out and Audix kick inside
57 snare top
NT4 for Rooms or OH's
or CM012's for OH
or 2 TLM103's for rooms
604's on the toms
you could try a 103 for a Front of Kit Mic

API#1 - kick
API#2 - snare top
OSA#1 & 2 - OH or Rooms depending on which you will use more of
Grace# 1 & 2 - whichever you do not use the OSA's for
Warm #1 - Guitar
Warm #2- Bass
Sapphire's - everything else ..
JOeMeek .. not sure, never used one .. maybe that is a bass thing !!


just a few thoughts ... my quick .02
Old 31st January 2018
  #5
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
the OSA Pre's are very like API but have a slight more meat imho ..

57 for guitar amp
421 for bass amp

D112 kick out and Audix kick inside
57 snare top
NT4 for Rooms or OH's
or CM012's for OH
or 2 TLM103's for rooms
604's on the toms
you could try a 103 for a Front of Kit Mic

API#1 - kick
API#2 - snare top
OSA#1 & 2 - OH or Rooms depending on which you will use more of
Grace# 1 & 2 - whichever you do not use the OSA's for
Warm #1 - Guitar
Warm #2- Bass
Sapphire's - everything else ..
JOeMeek .. not sure, never used one .. maybe that is a bass thing !!


just a few thoughts ... my quick .02
I was debating whether to use the Grace for OH. They are said to be very fast and clean but maybe clinical. Hadn't thought to use the OSA for OH. Anyone have experience with the 103s on OH?

The music I would call rock in general. Lots of influences from blues, country, punk etc pretty heavy drummer fairly active on the toms.
Old 26th February 2018
  #6
Gear Addict
 

Here's where I am so far. After doing a mic comparison recording for overheads between the Octavas, TLM 103s and NT4 we went with the TLM 103s. It was close between them and the Oktavas but the extra apparent size of the LDCs sound won me out.

API -> Audix D6 -> Kick In
Saffire -> TBD -> Kick Out
API -> SM57 -> Snare Top
Saffire -> Senn e609 -> Snare bottom
Saffire -> Oktava mc012 -> Hi Hats
Saffire -> e609 -> 8" Tom
Grace -> e609 -> 12" Tom
Grace -> e609 -> 14" Flr Tom
Saffire -> e609 -> 16" Flr Tom
OSA -> TLM103 -> Overheads (x2) <-- [This surprised me considering the bad rap 103s get around here..]
Warm WA12 -> SM57 -> Gtr Amp
Warm WA12 -> Direct -> Bass

I might still swap out a couple mics/pres for room mics if my room ends up sounding decent. Maybe put all toms on the Saffire and rooms on the Grace. Still need to decide on kick out mic. Maybe D112, still have a 421, MC012, e609, and other random mics available for that. Floor toms still need work too. Maybe just some tuning and dampening but possibly mic change.

Any thoughts?
Old 27th February 2018
  #7
Gear Guru
 
monkeyxx's Avatar
I'm confused why you listed all the signal paths backwards?
Old 27th February 2018
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Cardinal_SINE's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tymish View Post
Here's where I am so far. After doing a mic comparison recording for overheads between the Octavas, TLM 103s and NT4 we went with the TLM 103s. It was close between them and the Oktavas but the extra apparent size of the LDCs sound won me out.

API -> Audix D6 -> Kick In
Saffire -> TBD -> Kick Out
API -> SM57 -> Snare Top
Saffire -> Senn e609 -> Snare bottom
Saffire -> Oktava mc012 -> Hi Hats
Saffire -> e609 -> 8" Tom
Grace -> e609 -> 12" Tom
Grace -> e609 -> 14" Flr Tom
Saffire -> e609 -> 16" Flr Tom
OSA -> TLM103 -> Overheads (x2) <-- [This surprised me considering the bad rap 103s get around here..]
Warm WA12 -> SM57 -> Gtr Amp
Warm WA12 -> Direct -> Bass

I might still swap out a couple mics/pres for room mics if my room ends up sounding decent. Maybe put all toms on the Saffire and rooms on the Grace. Still need to decide on kick out mic. Maybe D112, still have a 421, MC012, e609, and other random mics available for that. Floor toms still need work too. Maybe just some tuning and dampening but possibly mic change.

Any thoughts?
you definitely want SDC for overheads with a low ceiling like you have. Also you place them in XY
Old 27th February 2018
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx View Post
I'm confused why you listed all the signal paths backwards?
Lol I was wondering the same thing.
Old 27th February 2018
  #10
Lives for gear
If your gonna buy stuff:
BIV ribbon mic's and CM3 SDC's are both a good buy. e906 and CAD179(I think) are both well rounded decent mics. One M88 or RE-20 or SM7b is handy. One tube mic would also be cool, look at advanced audio and warbler. A well rounded kick mic and sub kick are nice options like ATM25 or E602. The D6 is good for a clicky sounding kick for metal.

The 421 is worth a shot at kick and use the 112 for floor tom if the tune is mellow. 103's or ribbons will be your overheads. you have many choices for how to set two or three of them up. Pick 3 or 4 ways and test them. In s small room an XY in front of the kit can work. I would give the 3'rd 103 a shot at outside kick and snare position.

The main trick is getting the mic live through headphones, and listen to the mic as you place it. After done with each part of the kit, check phase with overheads and kick and snare. Edit mic placement & phase buttons to fix phase issues.

When placing the mic on the guitar cab, listen for the noise, that's where the good sound is.

I would use one of the warm preamps on snare and something more clear and better low end on the bass. A good bass DI can do wonders for the overall sound.
Old 27th February 2018
  #11
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx View Post
I'm confused why you listed all the signal paths backwards?
Must be my sydlexia Well actually just typing too fast and multi tasking. Thanks for the arrow policing.
Old 27th February 2018
  #12
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardinal_SINE View Post
you definitely want SDC for overheads with a low ceiling like you have. Also you place them in XY
I started with X/Y, then tried ORTF and ended up with a spaced pair slightly angled inwards. Ceiling joists are filled with 6 inches of sound absorbancy and covered with acoustic cloth killing reflections and pretty decent bass trapping. I am going more towards capturing the cymbals than a full kit sound from the overheads in this room. So far sounds good. I'll still try a couple other positions record and compare but need to get to tracking soon.

Why SDC vs LDC? Do SDCs have a tighter cardioid pattern?
Old 27th February 2018
  #13
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by elegentdrum View Post
If your gonna buy stuff:
BIV ribbon mic's and CM3 SDC's are both a good buy. e906 and CAD179(I think) are both well rounded decent mics. One M88 or RE-20 or SM7b is handy. One tube mic would also be cool, look at advanced audio and warbler. A well rounded kick mic and sub kick are nice options like ATM25 or E602. The D6 is good for a clicky sounding kick for metal.
Thanks for the reply.

Budget is now mostly non existent but maybe I can get loaners. Might be able to borrow a pair of Josephson C42s. I used them once and they were nice but seemed too bright for rock. I did get my hands on an SM7 just the other day though. I like the D6 but yes the pre EQed top and bottom is pretty heavy. Great live but too much by itself for recording.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elegentdrum View Post
The 421 is worth a shot at kick and use the 112 for floor tom if the tune is mellow. 103's or ribbons will be your overheads. you have many choices for how to set two or three of them up. Pick 3 or 4 ways and test them. In s small room an XY in front of the kit can work. I would give the 3'rd 103 a shot at outside kick and snare position.
Was thinking using the 421 as outside kick mic. Would it be better inside with something else outside? Had to sell the third 103. Maybe I'll try the octavas X/Y in front of kit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elegentdrum View Post
The main trick is getting the mic live through headphones, and listen to the mic as you place it. After done with each part of the kit, check phase with overheads and kick and snare. Edit mic placement & phase buttons to fix phase issues.

When placing the mic on the guitar cab, listen for the noise, that's where the good sound is.

I would use one of the warm preamps on snare and something more clear and better low end on the bass. A good bass DI can do wonders for the overall sound.
I have a SansAmp Bass Driver DI and the bassist has another Sans Amp DI I've had good luck with.
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