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What is lost by locking to the grid Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 23rd March 2018
  #1501
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
That I find is absolutely worth analyzing and being aware of so that mistakes aren't repeated. Why is this that hard for you guys to accept??
I wasn't replying to you, I was replying to two other posters.
My reply had virtually nothing to say about your posts, but anyway, I was writing from my own experience (the benefit of hindsight). I'm sorry, you are just going to have to accept people will write posts based on their experiences.
Old 23rd March 2018
  #1502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Balanced?
I see coming from you not so much balance, but myopia, sweeping generalizations/stereotypes made from very limited personal anecdotes...
It's an attitude I encountered a lot in middle schoolers I taught.

Fortunately, most of the high schoolers had advanced to the stage where they had at least a general awareness that there is value in entire paradigms of thought and systems of knowledge that lie beyond their current comprehension. It probably helped that I was teaching mainly students who were well traveled, and were well versed in Humanities and Liberal Arts, and had thus been exposed to a great number of foreign concepts.

I couldn't possibly count all the adults I've encountered who spend their lives lamenting the time and effort, and opportunities lost as a result of not learning fundamental skills early on, and can't count a single person I've ever met who lists receiving those skills as a detriment later in life.... with the possible exception of simply having wasted time from a few who used school as a way to hide from life for many years.

There does seem, however, to be no shortage of folks who will take any education, lack thereof, or whatever other excuse seems handy to blame their misery on external forces. Funny how that never seems to change even when their circumstances do. People always seem amazed when most lottery winners self destruct. I'm not. Someone dishonest enough with themselves to blame all their problems on a lack of money in the first place is exactly the kind of person who will then blame all their post-winning problems on the PRESENCE of money. Most common quote from those folks: "The lottery ruined my life."

Number one regret among nursing home patients: Not realizing early in life that they and they alone are responsible for their happiness, and that they've essentially wasted their lives blaming other people or circumstances.

Never once heard in a nursing home: Regret for having received an education.
Old 23rd March 2018
  #1503
Great post.
Old 23rd March 2018
  #1504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ain't Nobody View Post
There does seem, however, to be no shortage of folks who will take any education, lack thereof, or whatever other excuse seems handy to blame their misery on external forces. Funny how that never seems to change even when their circumstances do. People always seem amazed when most lottery winners self destruct. I'm not. Someone dishonest enough with themselves to blame all their problems on a lack of money in the first place is exactly the kind of person who will then blame all their post-winning problems on the PRESENCE of money. Most common quote from those folks: "The lottery ruined my life."
My motive is not to whine and blame though, I'm the furthest thing from victim mentality there is, my first reaction to everything is "what was my role in this outcome." I actively maintained the right attitude (minus a few teenage years where you're swamped with confusion), leaned what I could from what was there, got out of the lesser optimal situations as quickly as possible, followed my own path, and made it all work. I'm great

I'm looking out for the future, the people who I have the ability to now impact, which I'd like to do so as effectively as possible. This requires analyzing one's own experiences for potential improvements, and requires analyzing both the good and bad teachers/mentors you yourself have experienced over the course of your life.

The above is another straw man. . you can totally analyze areas of your life that were lacking or less than optimal for ways of improvement, without being the "blame others" type you're describing above. Two unrealted things.

I'd argue NOT doing what I'm doing is the irresponsible move here. You're a professional teacher - you're telling me you've never analyzed the good and bad from your own experiences being taught things? You've never thought "I definitely DON'T want to do that with my students, its not optimal, I've found THIS to be considerably more effective"??? I find that impossible to believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I wasn't replying to you, I was replying to two other posters.
My reply had virtually nothing to say about your posts, but anyway, I was writing from my own experience (the benefit of hindsight). I'm sorry, you are just going to have to accept people will write posts based on their experiences.
Of course. The tone is moving in the direction of blind acceptance of teachers and educational systems though, with "you'll see the light decades from now" being an argument in that direction. There isn't always a bright light at the end though, people in mass average out to be mediocre and this goes for teachers too. You're lucky that that was your personal experience, but I think blind acceptance of something is never a great move, and "you'll see the value of this decades from now" a common argument for blind acceptance that teachers like to use. So I accept this as your personal experience, but don't like this notion as the go-to that teachers love to use it for.

Last edited by newguy1; 23rd March 2018 at 07:22 PM..
Old 23rd March 2018
  #1505
I don't think anyone said anything about 'blind acceptance'. Again, your hyperbole wrecks your argument.
Which student is ever immersed in college work 24/7?
I probably had four or five hours of college per day. the rest of my time was doing off-curriculum stuff with tutors (the avante-garde electronica jams I mentioned earlier for example) and using college facilities to rehearse with student bands.
My first pro gig came out of doing a masterclass with a top guitarist who was in college for one day. Nothing to do with the overall course.
I think many colleges have visiting masterclasses and visiting artists.
Old 23rd March 2018
  #1506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I don't think anyone said anything about 'blind acceptance'. Again, your hyperbole wrecks your argument.
Man. . I try to qualify these things pretty clearly and carefully. I said "the tone is moving in the direction of blind acceptance of teachers." Which it is, I'm getting attacked for coming with any critique against teachers and education at all here. I'm told to stop whining, stop playing victim, stop acting like a middle schooler, and accept that teacher knows best.

It only becomes hyperbolic when you pluck the words "blind acceptance" out of their well-qualified context. . . But this is all a side point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Which student is ever immersed in college work 24/7?
I probably had four or five hours of college per day. the rest of my time was doing off-curriculum stuff with tutors (the avante-garde electronica jams I mentioned earlier for example) and using college facilities to rehearse with student bands.
My first pro gig came out of doing a masterclass with a top guitarist who was in college for one day. Nothing to do with the overall course.
I think many colleges have visiting masterclasses and visiting artists.
I guess my personal issue comes down to the amount of musical and creative energy in my reserves. After 6 hours of academic musical study, I found it quite hard to turn to music as part of the yin/yang pattern it tends to serve. My Street Fighter musical energy levels were already in the red at that point. So that semester where music was my major ended up the most soul sucking of them all, depleting my energy and so taking away the release of passion that I crave, the whole core drive behind it all.

Which goes back to my main point. If your primary passion is creativity and exploration (right brain), then there are better ways to educate to make the most of that than a near 100% focus on memorization, note reading, theory, rules, and learning to play existing pieces (left brain.) This is the trap when it comes to the creatively motivated. You of course need a good heaping helping of the latter left brain stuff, but as the near sole focus? Its missing the mark for where that kind of student's passion actually lies.
Old 23rd March 2018
  #1507
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post

It only becomes hyperbolic when you pluck the words "blind acceptance" out of their well-qualified context. . . But this is all a side point.
Again, you stretch credibility with your response. You wrote the phrase 'blind acceptance' three times in one short paragraph. I hardly 'plucked' it out of nowhere.


Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Which goes back to my main point. If your primary passion is creativity and exploration (right brain), then there are better ways to educate to make the most of that than a near 100% focus on memorization, note reading, theory, rules, and learning to play existing pieces (left brain.) This is the trap when it comes to the creatively motivated. You of course need a good heaping helping of the latter left brain stuff, but as the near sole focus? Its missing the mark for where that kind of student's passion actually lies.

Wow, I strongly disagree.
I've used reading skills every day as a 'creative' studio drummer.
I've also used theory a lot. At one point I got tired of drumming on tour and switched to composing and recording for film & tv. A strong background in composition and theory made it possible. Being just a 'creative drummer' with no other skills and I'd have been screwed.
The more you write, the more you just come across as anti-academic, anti-establishment, anti-the system.
That's fine as a personal decision. But I think it's way more clever to use the system, learn the rules and know what you are doing when you break them.
As I said earlier, knowledge is power, and I have found that to be very true in my career.
The people who flounder are the ones who don't really know what they are doing.
The greats, like Miles Davis or Picasso, studied, knew the rules, and knew exactly what they were doing when they moved creatively away from 'the rules'.
Old 23rd March 2018
  #1508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Again, you stretch credibility with your response. You wrote the phrase 'blind acceptance' three times in one short paragraph. I hardly 'plucked' it out of nowhere..
There was plenty of context that you're not accounting for. My point was not hyperbolic, you're getting nit-picky here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Wow, I strongly disagree.
You don't feel there's an optimal yin/yang balance in life that puts you in superior vs inferior states for creativity? "Where's my muse/how do I find the inspiration" are VERY COMMON threads among the creative. A HUUUGE part of my professional life has been trying to maintain that optimal balance that best supports a superior and inspired creative state. That's a massively important key to it all!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I've used reading skills every day as a 'creative' studio drummer.
I've also used theory a lot. At one point I got tired of drumming on tour and switched to composing and recording for film & tv. A strong background in composition and theory made it possible. Being just a 'creative drummer' with no other skills and I'd have been screwed.
I've never used reading skills but definitely theory. I've used much of what I've learned. But this has nothing to do with the fact that I could have learned things in ways that would have been more benficial to me, in hindsight, that can be applied in ways to make other's experiences more optimal for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
The more you write, the more you just come across as anti-academic, anti-establishment, anti-the system.
I definitely think "the system" when it comes to musical education largely steers people in the wrong direction, yes. Most of the popular culture creative greats from the point of rock & roll forward do not come from a strong musical education background. For a reason. From John Lennon to Aphex Twin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
That's fine as a personal decision. But I think it's way more clever to use the system, learn the rules and know what you are doing when you break them.
As I said earlier, knowledge is power, and I have found that to be very true in my career.
Of course that's what I did. There's always the "make the most of what's there" angle, of course! And that's your best play at any given time, agreed.

That doesn't mean there aren't better ways to go about recognizing the best way to teach an individual, should you have the chance to zoom in that closely on a student (as a mentor or parent can do). This is the angle I'm hitting this from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
The people who flounder are the ones who don't really know what they are doing.
The greats, like Miles Davis or Picasso, studied, knew the rules, and knew exactly what they were doing when they moved creatively away from 'the rules'.
Not really. As I said above, most of the creative greats post rock & roll didn't come from higher level music educational systems. Most of who are considered the most influential creatives the past 70 years are self-taught and followed their own paths. An educational approach that supports this (for those who are drawn to that direction) is more than appropriate to explore IMO.
Old 23rd March 2018
  #1509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
...After 6 hours of academic musical study, I found it quite hard to turn to music as part of the yin/yang pattern it tends to serve...
BECAUSE of the education you received, you now have the tools and perspective to contextualize any innovations you want to achieve. You think 6 hours of study is exhausting? Try 60 YEARS of hunting and pecking because you never learned to type, or 60,000 hours over a lifetime spent searching for the notes you hear in your head. Think spending a few years as a cog in a machine is exhausting? Try a lifetime reinventing the wheel. It's a fool's errand. Breaking the rules effectively implies knowing them intimately.

It must be hundreds of times I've heard musicians later in life lamenting all the wasted time and energy they've spent going around in circles because they didn't get a proper systematized introduction that allowed them to write, read, and communicate with less friction.

Is that "Left Brained". Sure. Whatever. Lots of things we need to function as individuals and a society are. Much of education is by default, and it's a feature, not a design flaw. We don't NEED school to finger paint with no rules. We DO need school to learn Calculus. The right brained part needs encouraging, but it's most often the left brained part that needs TEACHING.

The entire conversation is in English... using thousands of words and phrases you didn't willingly CHOOSE to learn. You are able to participate for the sole reason that you were forced to learn a comprehensive system of syntax and grammar that had no more meaning to you at the time than it does to the family dog.

If there's one defining feature of our species, it's that we don't need to learn everything from scratch the hard way. It's not completely unique. Chimps can teach other chimps to use basic tools. The core capacity is there, yet we achieve so much more. It's not that we're so much better at using the tools, but rather that we're so much better at teaching that allows us to develop ever more complex tools since each generation is taught a common framework from which they can innovate further rather than having to reinvent each step.

Multiply that by eons and countless generations, and the compounding effect is staggering. It's no accident that we spend a fourth of our lives in school learning what came before our otherwise solipsistic existence. Our horizons are vast BECAUSE we stand on the shoulders of giants.

Your parents understood that on some level.

50 years from now, you will too.
Old 23rd March 2018
  #1510
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Of course. I haven't said don't teach the fundamentals at all. I'm focusing in on "the way in which" and "the percentage of time and energy devoted to."

Also. . . music and the arts are something more than the sum of the parts that came before them. You can pull off genius stuff with very little, because the real spark that attracts people to the arts is the feeling they get from participating with a piece, and feelings can be communicated very strongly with very little. Its not like calculus. . . where once something is explored that's that, its now just a math problem, and the only creativity is happening at the actual outer limits of the field by those who know everything inside and out. With music you can explore entry, middle, and advanced grounds with full throttle creativity (with entry and middle actually having the highest overall appeal to the most people.) There's an important balance there that's unique to the creative arts, between maintaining this innocent direct-connection to your core passion and feelings, and filling your head with information and rules, that can easily be tipped off balance potentially leading a creative person down a less optimal path. With my own kids, I'm planning to account for all this in how I go about their education.
Old 23rd March 2018
  #1511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ain't Nobody View Post

I saw the same thing daily as a teacher. Kids would spend DAYS typing something that would take me 15 minutes for the simple reason that they never learned to type. I didn't WANT to learn to type either at that age. Seemed like a huge waste of time. Turns out, it was the most valuable class I ever took that has probably spared me YEARS of wasted time over all.

Beyond that, the kids I see that don't learn those skills end up becoming so discouraged at the difficulty of the overall project, that they never develop the confidence necessary to see a major project through... and all because they never mastered the basic skills.
But sometimes not doing things the "right" way, or not learning basic skills, or forging your own path....works. Other people do things the right way, still doesn't work out. So who can really say.

The above mentioned Beatles did not learn many basic skills, still worked out. Now their path is touted though no one could have predicted it as being anything but a probable failure full of regrets.

All I'm saying is it's hard to know what anyone will regret, so why regret it...you can if you want...but that was your choice...
Old 23rd March 2018
  #1512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ain't Nobody View Post
It must be hundreds of times I've heard musicians later in life lamenting all the wasted time and energy they've spent going around in circles because they didn't get a proper systematized introduction that allowed them to write, read, and communicate with less friction.
Is anyone saying that it's good to not learn anything at all? Obviously, most people in music feel they need to learn what they need to learn depending on what their goal is. Are they naive when young? No doubt. That seems part of the equation. Who goes into music that doesn't have a sense of, uh, adventure.

I think many, many, many, many musicians can lament things regardless of what they learned...and hindsight is always 20/20.
Old 24th March 2018
  #1513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
But sometimes not doing things the "right" way, or not learning basic skills, or forging your own path....works. Other people do things the right way, still doesn't work out. So who can really say.

The above mentioned Beatles did not learn many basic skills, still worked out. Now their path is touted though no one could have predicted it as being anything but a probable failure full of regrets.

All I'm saying is it's hard to know what anyone will regret, so why regret it...you can if you want...but that was your choice...
Of course all sorts of things do or don't work out for all kinds of people, and there will always be those that transcend any circumstance. I have an ex business partner who if he was kidnapped, and dropped into the middle of some random city halfway around the world with no money, no contacts, no ability to speak the language... would be running the place within months. It's just who he is. (And, as any student of human nature might guess from the above description, I've never once seen him gripe about anything or blame anything or anyone but himself for any circumstance.)

It's universally true that outcomes sometimes defy predictions, but I've heard the same things over and over from artists and many others for decade after decade. If you saw a coin flipped thousands of times, and it landed on tails 99% of the time, pointing out that it COULD land either way next time is just choosing to miss the point of what's actually happening. The coin is unbalanced. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

Of course, some will always focus solely on outliers. That's fine. I spent many years doing it myself. Contrarianism is always particularly popular among fringe groups like artists. I've known a few to develop entire life philosophies around it, but in the end, I've found it to be much wiser to at least START with the assumption that you're NOT smarter than everyone who ever lived before you.
Old 24th March 2018
  #1514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ain't Nobody View Post

Of course, some will always focus solely on outliers. That's fine. I spent many years doing it myself. Contrarianism is always particularly popular among fringe groups like artists. I've known a few to develop entire life philosophies around it, but in the end, I've found it to be much wiser to at least START with the assumption that you're NOT smarter than everyone who ever lived before you.
Okay, well you figured that out...if only you had a time machine.

I still think there's no point in regrets. If you didn't learn something you think you should have before, learn it now, and all will be solved...unless life is over.
Old 24th March 2018
  #1515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
I still think there's no point in regrets. If you didn't learn something you think you should have before, learn it now, and all will be solved...unless life is over.
Couldn't agree more. On an average day, I squeeze in at least a few tutorials... on any of a few dozen subjects. I've nearly always got one going in the background when I take a few minutes to do something less productive... like typing on GS.
Old 24th March 2018
  #1516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
But sometimes not doing things the "right" way, or not learning basic skills, or forging your own path....works. Other people do things the right way, still doesn't work out. So who can really say.

The above mentioned Beatles did not learn many basic skills, still worked out. Now their path is touted though no one could have predicted it as being anything but a probable failure full of regrets.

All I'm saying is it's hard to know what anyone will regret, so why regret it...you can if you want...but that was your choice...
One of my favorite quotes is "Success can result from a flawed effort, and failure can result from a flawless effort"

This is not to suggest that hard work and being meticulous is useless, or make excuses for a lack of success. Hardly. It just means we have limited control over outcomes. And just because someone was successful does not necessarily mean they did everything right.

How many companies in the Silicon Valley try to do everything the way Google does it because Google is so successful. And I often times make the point "Google has rooms with fish tanks and massage chairs because they can afford it. It may or may not have anything to do with their success"
Old 24th March 2018
  #1517
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vernier's Avatar
Can't lock to the grid using tape.
Old 24th March 2018
  #1518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vernier View Post
Can't lock to the grid using tape.
Yes you can, with time code.
Old 24th March 2018
  #1519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vernier View Post
Can't lock to the grid using tape.
We used a Franz quartz metronome, stuck it in the live room with a mic on it and let it run for a bit more than the length of the song - and recorded it on track 1 of the multi-track deck. Then we overdubbed to it until we were almost out of tracks and then we went over track 1. Did this all the time on tape. Even as far back as four-track days.

And it was certainly our intention to "lock" to this - that's what we were going for in our playing, and if we got off, we punched in and did it again.

And while I did not do so myself, I read articles about people who would use a ruler to measure drum timing and splice together a full-length drum track that had 100 cuts in it - adding and subtracting here and there to achieve a machine-like regularity. Exactly what people do now in the DAW, just much much more time-consuming.

I also remember making loops on tape that were literal loops. End-spliced-onto-the-beginning loops. This also provided what I would call a form of "grid".
Old 24th March 2018
  #1520
Quote:
Originally Posted by vernier View Post
Can't lock to the grid using tape.
Actual you can, and I've personally had it done to me.
Check out the famous photo of the Boston drum tracking session.
Old 24th March 2018
  #1521
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post

And while I did not do so myself, I read articles about people who would use a ruler to measure drum timing and splice together a full-length drum track that had 100 cuts in it - adding and subtracting here and there to achieve a machine-like regularity.
This....
Although the engineer didn't use a ruler.
But cutting out slivers of tape to 'lock to the grid' was surprisingly common.
Old 24th March 2018
  #1522
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
...and hindsight is always 20/20.
Good point.
I think what I and others are saying is that older teachers have that 20/20 hindsight. 'newguy1' is saying those teachers are imposing some draconian and irrelevant rules on students. I'm saying they eventually learnt from their mistakes and naivety and are trying to stop the next generation making those same mistakes.
I see it all the time in my work.
I try and instill the importance of certain things to learning musicians, but they instead hone in on some tiny irrelevance.
Like I talk about the importance of groove, musical taste, and all the students want to do is discuss the fill I played right at the end.
Old 24th March 2018
  #1523
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
But sometimes not doing things the "right" way, or not learning basic skills, or forging your own path....works.
Agreed. It's often the way we innovate in the arts.
My point is, the greatest often learned the rules, practiced the rules, then broke the rules. There is more power in understanding what you are doing, than just breaking a couple of rules because you didn't know they existed.

Like Miles Davis, or the Impressionist painters.
They studied, perfected the old ways, then blew them up.
Old 24th March 2018
  #1524
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doorknocker's Avatar
I teach guitar to a 12-year old kid who is very much into The Beatles. We looked at 'Got to get you into my life' and while checking the chords I realized that the chorus is speeding up massively - or better said: the chorus has a much different tempo that the verses. It's interesting that I never noticed this in decades of hearing the song.

No doubt it's intentional or maybe they edited different takes. Now with Ringo (though Macca might have played drums on it?) you had a drummer that was capable of playing steady and rock solid but for musical reasons, the Beatles were choosing whatever approach fit a particular song best. A looped, dead-on groove on 'Tomorrow never knows (still 'modern' sounding today and way ahead of it's - no pun - time.) Or the 'sections' approach like above or what the Beach Boys did on 'Good Vibrations' and many other songs.

My conclusion is that we should use modern tools and editing but the danger is limiting oneself by it.In other words I suspect that a record like 'Got to get you into my life' might not be created today simply because folks are either afraid or don't even think of intentionally varying tempo in a song or follow the natural buildup on many classic records where the tempo gets faster in a natural way. Thus building excitement and drama - as opposed to tempo variations due to mediocre musicianship.

Last edited by doorknocker; 24th March 2018 at 10:43 AM..
Old 24th March 2018
  #1525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u87allen View Post
One of my favorite quotes is "Success can result from a flawed effort, and failure can result from a flawless effort"

This is not to suggest that hard work and being meticulous is useless. Hardly. It just means we have limited control over outcomes. And just because someone was successful does not necessarily mean they did everything right.
The thing, too, about music...is doing things "wrong" seems to go hand in hand with music evolving and "success"...someone can certainly be "successful" following all the rules...but people who break them generally seem to be the ones who truly "succeed". Of course, someone will say you can't break the rules without knowing them, but that's not entirely true...
Old 24th March 2018
  #1526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Agreed. It's often the way we innovate in the arts.
My point is, the greatest often learned the rules, practiced the rules, then broke the rules. There is more power in understanding what you are doing, than just breaking a couple of rules because you didn't know they existed.

Like Miles Davis, or the Impressionist painters.
They studied, perfected the old ways, then blew them up.
Haha...yeah..see above...many blew up rules they didn't know though...

all of hiphop/rap...turntables...they knew rules? I don't think so. McCartney...Lennon...can't read music....so many of Ringo's things came out of what he didn't know, couldn't do....and on and on.
Old 24th March 2018
  #1527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker View Post
A looped, dead-on groove on 'Tomorrow never knows (still 'modern' sounding today and way ahead of it's - no pun - time.
I'm pretty sure that was not looped...just Ringo and Paul doing their thing clickless!

Quote:
My conclusion is that we should use modern tools and editing but the danger is limiting oneself by it.In other words I suspect that a record like 'Got to get you into my life' might not be created today simply because folks are either afraid or don't even think of intentionally varying tempo in a song or follow the natural buildup on many classic records where the tempo gets faster in a natural way. Thus building excitement and drama - as opposed to tempo variations due to mediocre musicianship.
Agree!
Old 24th March 2018
  #1528
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doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
I'm pretty sure that was not looped...just Ringo and Paul doing their thing clickless!
You might be right. I don't have time to check the books right now, I'm sure there are miles of internet discussions about it though.... I seem to remember reading that they used a percussion tape loop but that might not have stayed in the final version. In any way, it's still a mindblowing production. And Ringo is the man.
Old 24th March 2018
  #1529
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
McCartney...Lennon...can't read music....
But they studied, studied, studied the music that went before them. That goes for Buddy Holly, British Music Hall, folk music and even classical.
Towards the end they were studying Indian music and contemporary classical. Which is why they went to George Martin with ideas about using unusual instruments and techniques like tape loops.
They didn't do it because they had no idea what they were dong. They'd heard it (not in Rock n Roll) and wanted to use the same sounds and techniques.
Old 24th March 2018
  #1530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
But they studied, studied, studied the music that went before them. That goes for Buddy Holly, British Music Hall, folk music and even classical.
Towards the end they were studying Indian music and contemporary classical. Which is why they went to George Martin with ideas about using unusual instruments and techniques like tape loops.
They didn't do it because they had no idea what they were dong. They'd heard it (not in Rock n Roll) and wanted to use the same sounds and techniques.
@hhamilton and I are bros now lol.

They followed their hearts in their study though. No forced curriculum, it was a more pure chasing of passion, where the "learning" gets turbo charged by "organic inspiration" rather than being a trudge down "here's what you're supposed to do" avenue. I think that's more important for creative types than most institutionalized music curriculum accounts for, and that its no coincidence that John Lennon found a way of failing out of the advanced arts school his family had pulled strings to force him into:

Lennon failed all his GCE O-level examinations and was accepted into the Liverpool College of Art only after his aunt and headmaster intervened.[30] Once at the college, he started wearing Teddy Boy clothes and acquired a reputation for disrupting classes and ridiculing teachers. As a result, he was excluded from the painting class, then the graphic arts course, and was threatened with expulsion for his behaviour, which included sitting on a nude model's lap during a life drawing class.[31] He failed an annual exam, despite help from fellow student and future wife Cynthia Powell, and was "thrown out of the college before his final year".[32]
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