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NEVE 1073/WA LA2A or Neumann U87 Single-Channel Preamps
Old 6 days ago
  #31
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kennybro's Avatar
I'd open up the field and audition as many mics as possible before deciding. Mic is going to make the bigger difference. Preamps sound different, but in more subtle ways than mics. Mics are sledgehammers and preamps are tack hammers. You might find that something like an AT4050 suits your ears and needs at $700. For a pre, you may find satisfaction with something like a UA, Grace, Vintech, Daking, or something even cheaper. Spending 3 grand on a vocal chain often ends up as a lesson in the massive impact of source, song, monitors, room, mic technique, etc... last thing you should probably do is drop $3200 on a U87, expecting watershed results. I don't see good used ones selling for less than 2 grand plus. Great mic that works on a wide band of sources, but no magic bullet.

True that stuff can be hard to demo, but if you're in the States, GC can be useful in limited ways. Anywhere in the Midwest, a drive to Sweetwater in FT Wayne IN might be worthwhile, or B&H if around NYC, when spending 2 or 3 grand on something you will have to live with or end up losing money. There is simply no substitution for hearing gear in context. People will tell you what is working for them, not for you.
Old 6 days ago
  #32
Just get the u87ai.

As much hate as it gets around here (guilty as charged), it has a special sound to it. It’s a classic for a reason.

The 1073 clones out there are almost all pretty good. Besides, AMS is not really “Neve”.

Down the line, pick up a BAE 1073 (better sounding imo) and an la2a or similar.
Old 6 days ago
  #33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Producer.101 View Post
Dear all Gearslutz!


I have saved up around 2000 bucks & I am looking to upgrade my vocal chain.

I currently record through a TLM 103 which goes into the Apollo Twin Duo but I am not completely happy with the sound I get from this chain so far. I use the 1073 Neve plug in most of the time with gentle plug in compression whilst tracking. I feel like there is a slight distortion in the sound that I am getting. & the vocals also sound quite thin.


The question I have is... Am I better off sticking with my Neumann TLM 103 & getting myself a NEVE 1073N with an outboard compressor like the Warm Audio LA-2A or am I better off sticking with the unison plug in technology & just getting myself a better microphone like the Neumann u87.


I record bright male vocals with the genre being mainly Hip Hop/R&B & sometimes POP music at the moment.


How much better is an outboard compressor like the WARM AUDIO la-2a than lets say the UAD classic collection compressors? I own both the LA-2A & 1176 plug in collections so it would be good to know if there is a big different between them and the hardware as I have no experience with hardware units when it comes to compression.


Would be great if anyone can share some insight on this..


Thanks!!!!
Outboard is MUCH better than any compression plugin you can have. Once I bought my outboard comps, I will NEVER record without compression again as long as I can help it. It makes a huge difference. Yes you can record through compression plugins, but the sound isnt nearly as good. I don't care if it's uad its not going to be the same as a real hw comp.

I recommend getting both the Wa76 and the WA2a. The wa2a by itself sounds a little too fat, and the wa76 is a little bright, but both together work perfectly. Dialing in the right sound is pretty easy. I would say I got them both locked in for my voice within a month or two. I keep those same settings on every record I do, only change them for when I record other people. I feed the 76 into the 2a and I never touch the 2a just the input to my 76 to decide how much compression I want. Trust me they sound really great..

As far as what you should buy: ALL OF IT. lol. I would say get the pre / comps (get both) first. Then get the u87. But the pre / comps will take that harshness down from your 103 significantly. It's night and day. I also have a bae 1073mp it sounds GREAT it might be a cheaper alternative than buying a neve 1073n with a pretty much exact match in sound quality. (If the money's low, do what I did: put it on credit, try paypal credit or get a new cc will give you 12 months to pay with no interest. It's worth it!)
Old 6 days ago
  #34
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thismercifulfate's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Producer.101 View Post
What I am looking at the moment is Neumann u87ai into Warm Audio LA2A & then into my Apollo Twin Duo.
Microphones need to first go into a preamp before they go through any other outboard gear. EQs and dynamics processors are designed to recieve line-level signal. Mics put out very low mic-level signal, which is boosted to line-level with a preamp.

With your Apollo twin, you don't have a way to insert gear between the preamp and the analog to digital converter, so you will want to hold off on the WA-2A until you get a standalone preamp.
Old 6 days ago
  #35
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

As said before, if you want to buy a Neve style pre, don't get the AMS Neve, it's the most boring thing. Get either a BAE or an Aurora Stinger. I vote Stinger as vastly more flexible tone maker with eq and saturation extras, fader, etc. Or actual Neve from Rupert in the form of Portico or Shelford.
Old 6 days ago
  #36
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Swurveman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by foldback View Post
If you have not sung through the mic and you don't like the sound of your TLM103 why choose another Neumann model? Bragging rights? Reputation? I've never tried a modern Neumann that was not bright and a bit thin sounding to my ears.
You sang or heard the difference between a 103 and an 87ai and ask "why choose another Neumann model? To me, this is poor advice. The correct advice is demo the 87ai. It sounds vastly different than the 103.
Old 6 days ago
  #37
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b0se's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
As said before, if you want to buy a Neve style pre, don't get the AMS Neve, it's the most boring thing. Get either a BAE or an Aurora Stinger. I vote Stinger as vastly more flexible tone maker with eq and saturation extras, fader, etc. Or actual Neve from Rupert in the form of Portico or Shelford.
If I didn't have the SilverBullet I'd be all over that Stinger. Looks great.
Old 6 days ago
  #38
Gear Head
 
Producer.101's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Overwhelmed by all the advice I have received so far & would like to thank everyone for their contribution on this thread to help me buy the right gear!

Taking everything into account thus far & doing a little bit of my own research I am now potentially looking at these chains...


OPTION 1: TLM 103 - BLACK LION AUDIO B173 - WA-2A - APOLLO TWIN DUO. (if this chain can get rid of the harshness from the microphone that would be great)


OPTION 2: TLM 103 - USED AVALON 737 - APOLLO TWIN DUO


OPTION 3: NEUMANN U87AI - APOLLO TWIN DUO


I have a few albums to record & want them to have best sound as possible. Vocals need to be crystal clear & clean. TLM 103 into the Apollo Twin is sounding very average if I'm going to be honest to the point where I feel like I have to improve the chain. The dry vocal sound is fuzzy & always a battle to mix and get things to sound smooth & big.
Old 6 days ago
  #39
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monkeyxx's Avatar
Using gear to attempt to "fix" a microphone problem is a fool's errand, if you ask me.

The real problem is the microphone. I would start there.
Old 6 days ago
  #40
Gear Addict
 
ProgFree's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
As said before, if you want to buy a Neve style pre, don't get the AMS Neve, it's the most boring thing. Get either a BAE or an Aurora Stinger. I vote Stinger as vastly more flexible tone maker with eq and saturation extras, fader, etc. Or actual Neve from Rupert in the form of Portico or Shelford.
This and add there the Heritage Audio TT-73
Old 6 days ago
  #41
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Producer.101 View Post
Overwhelmed by all the advice I have received so far & would like to thank everyone for their contribution on this thread to help me buy the right gear!

Taking everything into account thus far & doing a little bit of my own research I am now potentially looking at these chains...


OPTION 1: TLM 103 - BLACK LION AUDIO B173 - WA-2A - APOLLO TWIN DUO. (if this chain can get rid of the harshness from the microphone that would be great)


OPTION 2: TLM 103 - USED AVALON 737 - APOLLO TWIN DUO


OPTION 3: NEUMANN U87AI - APOLLO TWIN DUO


I have a few albums to record & want them to have best sound as possible. Vocals need to be crystal clear & clean. TLM 103 into the Apollo Twin is sounding very average if I'm going to be honest to the point where I feel like I have to improve the chain. The dry vocal sound is fuzzy & always a battle to mix and get things to sound smooth & big.
Smooth and big isn't exactly how I'd describe a U87Ai in its naked form either.....just saying.
Old 5 days ago
  #42
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SEED78's Avatar
 

I've heard some vocal recordings with the 87ai over the years that have really put me off. Sounds a bit hard/harsh to me - maybe I just heard duff ones.

If we are talking bright, not too harsh, not crazy expensive:
Stellar CM6
Telefunken Cooperhead
Costing less: ISK B2 or something by 3U or Violet on one of their 70% off sales

Mono Neve style Preamp:
Great River/BAE/Heritage - if cheaper is needed Stam/Black Lion/Seventh Cicle N72

Compressor (that sounds clean and isn't so expensive):
Stam LA3A - GAP version if you get really skint.
TC Phoenix HG15 (mono version)

Or 500series (buy used and your money will go long way):
Great River preamp>EQ(choose from 20million, like Harrison/Maag/Clari etc ) > Serpent Chimera
Old 5 days ago
  #43
Gear Maniac
 
Lander's Avatar
 

My two most used vocal mics are a u-87 and a LeWilson 247 C. Been recording with u-87s for a few decades and the LeWilson 5 to 7 years I think. They are very different from each other. The 87 reminds me of a Electro-Voice re 20. The way you can EQ it and it never comes anywhere near falling apart. I do record with some nice preamps then from there into a tube compressor then into a VCA compressor. Sometimes I'll sandwich an equalizer in there someplace.

When I look at your options, the list you posted, not sure really how to advise you other than sharing my experience. I'm not sure what the 87 would sound like through your existing preamp. I tend to look at things, gear, as plateaus. $1,000 microphone through $1,000 preamp yada yada yada kind of thing. Relativity is what I'm getting at. Maybe others can chime in on what they think about this. If you can a compressor into your budget... Can you even insert that into the duo? After the preamp before DAC?

87s are awesome and versatile and their sound is malleable. Not all microphones hold up under the knife. It's off-axis sound is very pleasant too, that's another area where other mics fail.
Old 5 days ago
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx View Post
Using gear to attempt to "fix" a microphone problem is a fool's errand, if you ask me.

The real problem is the microphone. I would start there.
Yes exactly, spot on!
Old 5 days ago
  #45
Gear Head
 
Producer.101's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
A big question I feel needs answering is HOW GOOD is the Apollo Twin Duo? compared to the other interface/premps like the Apollo 8?

I feel we have definitely addressed the TLM 103 issues.. pretty harsh & doesn't take EQ too well which is true in my personal experience.

I feel the Apollo Twin sounds a bit fuzzy to me but that could be the MIC I am not sure. When I watch established mixing engineers mix dry vocals on Youtube.. (Pensado, Jimmy Douglas, Graham Cochrane) etc I find that there dry vocal recordings are incredibly clear & when they move knobs on compressors or eq the vocals don't drastically change into some unmusical distortion even when they do drastic things with them. Couldn't say the same with my vocal recordings.. I feel like I have to be really delicate with EQ & compression or else my recordings are ruined

Any thoughts on this?


Thanks!
Old 5 days ago
  #46
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monkeyxx's Avatar
The interface and preamp are a very small part of the total equation. As @kennybro said a sledgehammer vs a tack hammer.

I have had no similar problems with my Apollos, but I have had similar problems with inadequate microphones.

I do think preamps and conversion are important, but not in the way that you are describing.

I will also say, from what I have heard, that the TLM103 is not a great microphone. It does some funny stuff that I don't necessarily like. I have not owned one, but I have heard it against other mics in shootouts, and it stood out in a certain way.

I think that too much of your focus is on "one microphone." It would be good if you could expand your horizons, try some other top class mics, get to know them. You can probably learn a lot.
Old 5 days ago
  #47
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jwh1192's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Producer.101 View Post
A big question I feel needs answering is HOW GOOD is the Apollo Twin Duo? compared to the other interface/premps like the Apollo 8?

I feel we have definitely addressed the TLM 103 issues.. pretty harsh & doesn't take EQ too well which is true in my personal experience.

I feel the Apollo Twin sounds a bit fuzzy to me but that could be the MIC I am not sure. When I watch established mixing engineers mix dry vocals on Youtube.. (Pensado, Jimmy Douglas, Graham Cochrane) etc I find that there dry vocal recordings are incredibly clear & when they move knobs on compressors or eq the vocals don't drastically change into some unmusical distortion even when they do drastic things with them. Couldn't say the same with my vocal recordings.. I feel like I have to be really delicate with EQ & compression or else my recordings are ruined

Any thoughts on this?


Thanks!
from what i could find without calling UA (which i would say do if you want the real anser from the horses mouth) is that the AD/DA and Preamps are the same in 8P and TWIN as long as they are both Silver or Black Face respectively ..
Old 5 days ago
  #48
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Producer.101 View Post
I feel the Apollo Twin sounds a bit fuzzy to me but that could be the MIC I am not sure.
I've heard and read many critiques of the Apollo, and know a few who have it, and "fuzzy" is not something I've ever encountered in any review or from the few people I know who use them.

Also, I have a TLM 103, and haven't gotten fuzzy tones from it. I quite like it. I also have a some 87's, not Ai but older models, and the 103 is different and not as "wide range" usable, but a very nice mic for professional sounding vocals in the right situation for the right voice.

Are you certain that all gain staging is correct in your chain? First thing I'd do before dropping any cash is to determine exactly what is causing the fuzzy tone you describe.
Old 5 days ago
  #49
Gear Head
 
Producer.101's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
To back my "fuzzy" statement. I downloaded dry mix stems from Cambridge MT.. & the difference between the dry vocals I downloaded there compared to mine were NIGHT & DAY. Can't believe the different in quality I am hearing what is going on!? lol

I have attached the Dry Vocal recordings below through a DropBox Link :-

Dropbox - 25_LeadVoxCAMBRIDGE DRY MIX STEM.wav.zip

^ DRY MIX STEM from the website CAMBRIDGE MT

Dropbox - Audio 45DRY MIX STEM.wav.zip

^ Outtake from an artist I recorded on Monday (starts at 0:05)

I hope everyone on here can see what I meant by "fuzzy" distorted kind of sound.

Now this will be really interesting to see what people think!!!

Many Thanks.
Old 5 days ago
  #50
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tkaitkai's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Producer.101 View Post
^ Outtake from an artist I recorded on Monday (starts at 0:05)

I hope everyone on here can see what I meant by "fuzzy" distorted kind of sound.
Good news: your track doesn't really sound bad at all. I wouldn't call it fuzzy or distorted, and it's really not a terrible match for that guy's voice. It actually sounds exactly what I would expect a TLM 103/Apollo combo to sound like — clean, bright, and sterile. Not exactly world class, but also not bad.

The Cambridge vocal certainly has a richer, smoother tonality (although some of the sibilants are actually quite painful in comparison to yours), but something to consider is that this is a completely different person with a different voice in a different room through different gear.

That said, the unfortunate truth is that everything in your chain is important — the mic, the preamp, any outboard processors, and even the converters. The mic will probably make the most significant difference, but even if that's the only purchase you make for now, you'll eventually see the reason for upgrading everything else.

I know you have a specific budget, but if it's possible to stretch it, I would seriously consider ponying up for the U87, a BAE or Heritage 1073, and a Warm Audio WA76 or WA2A. Investing in that kind of gear effectively takes the gear out of the equation, so you can stop pulling your hair out and get back to making music. If that's simply not doable for you, there's no shame in going with a high quality clone, like the WA87 or 3U Audio Warbler. They often sound just as worthy in their own right
Old 5 days ago
  #51
Gear Addict
 
ProgFree's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
Also, I have a TLM 103, and haven't gotten fuzzy tones from it.
Same thing here.
To the op: a U87 into the apollo won't give you immediate warmth and roundness. You need a preamp and/or compressor with that type of color.
Old 5 days ago
  #52
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monkeyxx's Avatar
Some of the esses sound a little strange to me. Other than that it seems like a good vocal sound. Maybe a little too bright in the 7-15K area.

Well what would you know, look at the frequency response of the TLM103
Attached Thumbnails
NEVE 1073/WA LA2A or Neumann U87-103freq.png  
Old 5 days ago
  #53
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx View Post
Some of the esses sound a little strange to me. Other than that it seems like a good vocal sound. Maybe a little too bright in the 7-15K area.

Well what would you know, look at the frequency response of the TLM103
Yes, a nice match to darker voices, especially though UA 6176. I always add presence to my own voice with an 87, and the 103 hits it out of the box. When some say it doesn't take EQ well, they are probably boosting HF. I HP around 150 or 200 and add a wide touch at 1k, and it cuts through mix well, and still has a sense of warmth and detail. But not for everyone/every voice.

I also like it as a mono drum OH. It does the AKG C451 or 414 thing well, with a bit more "round." Great addition to an already fairly well-stocked locker.
Old 5 days ago
  #54
Here for the gear
 

IMHO put the Beyer M88, on your short list, as a prospective vocal mic, to add.

2 main reasons...

1) Wherever you record, is the room "acoustically treated"?

2) On many voices, it's reputed (including by AE Bob Ohlsson!) to have a similar
"sound vibe" to the U87.

I would totally understand the benefit, of getting a Neumann U87 to impress
potential clients though! I only have to impress myself, so I have an 'umble
U87 clone instead.

Chris AKA "chessparov"
Old 4 days ago
  #55
Gear Head
 
Producer.101's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by tkaitkai View Post
Good news: your track doesn't really sound bad at all. I wouldn't call it fuzzy or distorted, and it's really not a terrible match for that guy's voice. It actually sounds exactly what I would expect a TLM 103/Apollo combo to sound like — clean, bright, and sterile. Not exactly world class, but also not bad.

The Cambridge vocal certainly has a richer, smoother tonality (although some of the sibilants are actually quite painful in comparison to yours), but something to consider is that this is a completely different person with a different voice in a different room through different gear.

That said, the unfortunate truth is that everything in your chain is important — the mic, the preamp, any outboard processors, and even the converters. The mic will probably make the most significant difference, but even if that's the only purchase you make for now, you'll eventually see the reason for upgrading everything else.

I know you have a specific budget, but if it's possible to stretch it, I would seriously consider ponying up for the U87, a BAE or Heritage 1073, and a Warm Audio WA76 or WA2A. Investing in that kind of gear effectively takes the gear out of the equation, so you can stop pulling your hair out and get back to making music. If that's simply not doable for you, there's no shame in going with a high quality clone, like the WA87 or 3U Audio Warbler. They often sound just as worthy in their own right


Hey man appreciate the feedback! Maybe I was being over-critical. Always good to know what other people think.. thanks.

& yes the u87 - 1073 - WA2A - TWIN would be the most ideal option in the world & I would love that to happen.

Only way it can happen is if I can make that 2000 bucks multiply into 6000 could invest in LITECOIN for a couple of months & see what happens! lol

any suggestions?
Old 4 days ago
  #56
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cheu78's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Producer.101 View Post
A big question I feel needs answering is HOW GOOD is the Apollo Twin Duo? compared to the other interface/premps like the Apollo 8?

I feel we have definitely addressed the TLM 103 issues.. pretty harsh & doesn't take EQ too well which is true in my personal experience.

I feel the Apollo Twin sounds a bit fuzzy to me but that could be the MIC I am not sure. When I watch established mixing engineers mix dry vocals on Youtube.. (Pensado, Jimmy Douglas, Graham Cochrane) etc I find that there dry vocal recordings are incredibly clear & when they move knobs on compressors or eq the vocals don't drastically change into some unmusical distortion even when they do drastic things with them. Couldn't say the same with my vocal recordings.. I feel like I have to be really delicate with EQ & compression or else my recordings are ruined

Any thoughts on this?


Thanks!
The apollo is the apollo, honestly I think it's pretty good for what it is.

My suggestion would be to try some of the gear you want to buy first, THEN decide what to get.

I'd not get any warm audio stuff or inexpensive clones.. some of those are really not bad actually, but they don't keep their value, imho it's not worthed. Again there are very few exception to this (i.e. If you DIY, the value is not increased but you LEARN a lot).

I'd try to get a vintage U87 if possible (maybe touched by Andreas Grosser)..very versatile mic.

you could also consider the Violet Design Amethyst Vintage (is a modern, rather bright non harsh mic that sounds very good..) IF you want to get a preamp as well.
Although I'd suggest you to get also a second, different mic.. An SM7 could be a good option for your needs, especially paired with a neve preamp (or a great sounding preamp).

If you want to shop for a 1073 sound these are imho your best options: Avedis MA5 plus lunchbox, Aurora Audio the Stinger or a GTQC (great channelstrip), or a BAE.
Want something cleaner? Getting a lunchbox with an MA5 would allow you to get a Forssell preamp as well later on or some compressors..

A nice tracking compressor could also be a daking Fet II.

So in the end what I would do is:
Selling your tlm103, get an u87 vintage and an sm7 and pair it with a great preamp/channelstrip mentioned above. The apollo should be fine for now.

If you don't have the budget start with the mics and get the preamp when you can. Don't go into debt.

I hope this helps,


Cheu
Old 4 days ago
  #57
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jwh1192's Avatar
do you have any other mics ?? or just the 103 ?? and if you back off the 103 a little it might not be as "Muddy" ... the other reference is almost too bright .. somewhere in between would be nicer ..

and the 103 - i jjst never liked what that mic sounded like .. kinda boring .. Lauten or ADK make some nice mics .. you seem to be caught uyp on the 87 for maybe the Neumann Name .. good all around utility mic but really nothing fancy .. but this is jjust my opinion obviously
Old 4 days ago
  #58
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monkeyxx's Avatar
he took your avatar, haha
Old 4 days ago
  #59
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jwh1192's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx View Post
he took your avatar, haha
i have had that one since 2002 .. i am licensing it to him !!! LOL
Old 4 days ago
  #60
Gear Head
 
Producer.101's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheu78 View Post
The apollo is the apollo, honestly I think it's pretty good for what it is.

My suggestion would be to try some of the gear you want to buy first, THEN decide what to get.

I'd not get any warm audio stuff or inexpensive clones.. some of those are really not bad actually, but they don't keep their value, imho it's not worthed. Again there are very few exception to this (i.e. If you DIY, the value is not increased but you LEARN a lot).

I'd try to get a vintage U87 if possible (maybe touched by Andreas Grosser)..very versatile mic.

you could also consider the Violet Design Amethyst Vintage (is a modern, rather bright non harsh mic that sounds very good..) IF you want to get a preamp as well.
Although I'd suggest you to get also a second, different mic.. An SM7 could be a good option for your needs, especially paired with a neve preamp (or a great sounding preamp).

If you want to shop for a 1073 sound these are imho your best options: Avedis MA5 plus lunchbox, Aurora Audio the Stinger or a GTQC (great channelstrip), or a BAE.
Want something cleaner? Getting a lunchbox with an MA5 would allow you to get a Forssell preamp as well later on or some compressors..

A nice tracking compressor could also be a daking Fet II.

So in the end what I would do is:
Selling your tlm103, get an u87 vintage and an sm7 and pair it with a great preamp/channelstrip mentioned above. The apollo should be fine for now.

If you don't have the budget start with the mics and get the preamp when you can. Don't go into debt.

I hope this helps,


Cheu

Hey man thanks for the in depth overview of the gear.. will definitely check them all out at some point!!

I think due to a lack of budget at the moment & a couple of full length albums desperatley needing recording I'm going to cut a deal with an audio warehouse.. where I can rent gear out for a couple of weeks/months.

I was looking at renting the Neumann u87 - Neve 1073 - CL1B - Apollo 8.. for around 700 bucks for 8 weeks. I know this puts pressure on the projects/artists but to record some great songs through that chain would be well worth it in my opinion.

I don't want to sacrifice quality due to lack of budget so I feel this could be the best solution. I have rented through this warehouse company before & they cut me a reasonable deal on the u87/avalon 737 for a week.

With this option in mind would you say that is the best chain I could wish for? I think it allows for more higher end options.. they also have the Sony C800 G/LA2As/1176s for rent also at a reeeasonble ish price.
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