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Overheads great - Kick great - together not so great
Old 15th May 2017
  #1
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Overheads great - Kick great - together not so great

I'm looking to get a nice punchy, balanced drum recording.

When I record with just 2 pencil mics overtop of the kit, I get a nice, punchy, balanced sound between the snare and hats, but no kick.

When i record with just 1 kick drum mic, I get kick, but nothing else.

When I record all 3, the punch is lost.

I am looking to place the kick mic on the batter side, and when I do this, it ads a ****ty top end to the snare that is ****ing up the snare punch in the overheads.

Any suggestions? and please keep the recorder man glynn johns bull**** at bay. Thanks
Old 15th May 2017
  #2
Have you tried flipping the polarity of the kick mic? Maybe your getting comb filtering.
Old 15th May 2017
  #3
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Sounds like you're dealing with some phase alignment issues. Flipping polarity on your kick mic or moving the positioning of all 3 mics a bit might solve your problem.
Old 15th May 2017
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomdavids View Post
When I record all 3, the punch is lost.
Check phase and polarity, and consider time aligning the recorded tracks.

Quote:
I am looking to place the kick mic on the batter side, and when I do this, it ads a ****ty top end to the snare that is ****ing up the snare punch in the overheads.
I am not usually a fan of batter-side kick mics except if I am doing like 3 mics on the kick and going for a very specific sound. Very rare.

Having said that, if you have specific reasons why you want to do that, you should consider doing something to isolate the kick better - blankets, foam etc to shield the mic from the snare.
Old 15th May 2017
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godotzilla View Post
Sounds like you're dealing with some phase alignment issues. Flipping polarity on your kick mic or moving the positioning of all 3 mics a bit might solve your problem.
those have been tried. not working
Old 15th May 2017
  #6
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Gating is probably the only option left for the kick mic, then.
Old 15th May 2017
  #7
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Or put the kick mic inside the kick... Or use a more directional kick mic and a lo-pass filter... Or build some sort of foam shield to reduce snare bleed into the kick mic.

Hard to believe that phase issues aren't part of this though. If simple 'flipping' of the phase doesn't do enough, you might wanna try something like the 'Little Labs' phase adjustment plugin which lets you vary the phase in more subtle increments.
Old 15th May 2017
  #8
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Well, at least now you can see why people came up with that "recorder man glynn johns bull****".
Old 15th May 2017
  #9
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RE: Phase relationship, are you checking the stereo pair before adding the BD mic? Are you listening in MONO?

I'd try a packing blanked over the BD to create some isolation. A HPF on the OH can be super useful as well. I'd say I filter the Ovverheads about 40-50% of the time, and usually its because I feel like the BD is unfocused.
Old 15th May 2017
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GB Kuipers View Post
Well, at least now you can see why people came up with that "recorder man glynn johns bull****".
Oh yea? Cuz last time I checked the glyn johns technique couldn't even sniff a good kick drum sound
Old 15th May 2017
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
RE: Phase relationship, are you checking the stereo pair before adding the BD mic? Are you listening in MONO?

I'd try a packing blanked over the BD to create some isolation. A HPF on the OH can be super useful as well. I'd say I filter the Ovverheads about 40-50% of the time, and usually its because I feel like the BD is unfocused.
The stereo pair is in perfect alignment. It's the bd that throws it off
Old 15th May 2017
  #12
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If you don't have a phase switch, just keep a cable around that's wired and marked as such.
Old 15th May 2017
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vernier View Post
If you don't have a phase switch, just keep a cable around that's wired and marked as such.
I do have a phase switch in the daw, but that never helps
Old 15th May 2017
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vernier View Post
If you don't have a phase switch, just keep a cable around that's wired and marked as such.
Any chance that a wired cable would yield different results than a phase invert switch plugin? I've never tried it.
Old 15th May 2017
  #15
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High pass up anywhere from 400 to 1K
Old 15th May 2017
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnd5412 View Post
High pass up anywhere from 400 to 1K
And lose the low end of my snare? No chance
Old 15th May 2017
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomdavids View Post
Any suggestions? and please keep the recorder man glynn johns bull**** at bay. Thanks
If I can't talk about the two proven techniques which are the Atkins and Zone of scientifically correct, solid, punchy, minimally-miked drums... then nope. No suggestions.
Old 15th May 2017
  #18
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Whats all this?

Heres a guy complaining that he hit trees when driving with his eyes closed...and the advice thats given is: get a navigation system?


Just get the damn mic in front of the kickdrum. No point placing it on the beaterside.
Old 15th May 2017
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
If I can't talk about the two proven techniques which are the Atkins and Zone of scientifically correct, solid, punchy, minimally-miked drums... then nope. No suggestions.
Explain to me how two overheads only yields a good kickdrum sound! You can't hear the bass drum!!!!! And don't even think about bringing up eq
Old 15th May 2017
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
If I can't talk about the two proven techniques which are the Atkins and Zone of scientifically correct, solid, punchy, minimally-miked drums... then nope. No suggestions.
Yea the snare is perfectly in phase but so is any proper spaced pair setup
Old 15th May 2017
  #21
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iMixOTB's Avatar
 

textbook phase problem, if simply flipping the kick mic phase doesn't help, you have to align that mic to the other 2,
and hope to get a decent sound, listen in mono when you do that
Old 15th May 2017
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pief View Post
Whats all this?

Heres a guy complaining that he hit trees when driving with his eyes closed...and the advice thats given is: get a navigation system?


Just get the damn mic in front of the kickdrum. No point placing it on the beaterside.
yea no point in getting a desired tone? right? I mean hell who would want to do that?!?!?
Old 15th May 2017
  #23
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Jerrick's Avatar
 

Beta91 inside the kick, that will get a nice beater sound and less bleed from the other shells. Or gate the beater side mic, so it only opens up for the kick hits. Flipping the polarity of the beater mic should of fixed it though.

Should be able to get a great kick/full kit sound just from the overheads too. Maybe your room has some bad nulls around 100hz, or you just need to lay into the kick more.
Old 16th May 2017
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomdavids View Post
Any chance that a wired cable would yield different results than a phase invert switch plugin? I've never tried it.
I never tried it, but wasn't sure if the OP had a phase switch.
Old 16th May 2017
  #25
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@Tomdavids: it takes some nerve to ask a newbie question and then act as though you know better than experienced AE's. If you don't want to move your mics until they are cooperating to make a good drum sound then do this:

1) time/phase align (using little labs plugin or other) so that the low end of the kick comes into focus when playing along with the OH's.

2) gate or use an expander on the kick track.
Old 16th May 2017
  #26
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Maybe try a placement on the kick that minimizes the bottom snare? Put a packing blanket over if there's space to do so.
Old 16th May 2017
  #27
You're placing a mic under the snare (yes pointing at the kick, but still under the snare) and wondering why you're getting a bunch of snare in it.

Your options are:

Gate it/edit out the snare (sidechaining from snare might work).
Put the mic somewhere else eg inside the kick like most people!

I've never ever recorded a batter side kick I don't believe - certainly not without conventional in and out kick mics too.
Old 16th May 2017
  #28
Gear Maniac
Little Labs IBP, hardware or software, on the kick. Phase flipping isn't helping because it's not 180 degrees out of phase. Phase problems can be frequency specific, so "fixing" it in the low end might not fix it so much in the mids.
Old 16th May 2017
  #29
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What mic are you using? An unpleasantly fizzy snare under sound is probably just a bad sounding mic with crap off-axis sound? Bright snare under mics is not a thing at for me...

RE bass punch, try just time aligning the mics. Pan both the overheads left, the bass drum mic right (with headphones) and adjust the levels until they're about the same. Now add a time delayer plugin on the bass drum channel and keep adding delay in samples until the bass drum and overheads feel like they 'snap' into focus in the centre of the stereo image. If you can't get them to line up then you might need to flip the polarity (often referred to as phase ΓΈ incorrectly).

And no, a polarity flip cable shouldn't sound any different to a polarity flip plugin unless you're using compression or saturating a preamp on the way in while recording...
Old 16th May 2017
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GB Kuipers View Post
Well, at least now you can see why people came up with that "recorder man glynn johns bull****".
Haha! So true!
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