The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Is M4000 much better than M3000
Old 22nd February 2007
  #1
Lives for gear
 
hemmick reef's Avatar
 

Is TC R4000 much better than M3000

I have the M3000 for powercore and really like it, but I am curious to know what the difference is in the Vss3/Vss4 alogorithms.

Does the Vss4 have the edge with realism? Mind you I find the Vss3 very real in terms of its sound!

Thanks.
Old 22nd February 2007
  #2
Gear Maniac
 
FreeDanny's Avatar
 

IMHO

Quote:
Originally Posted by hemmick reef View Post
I have the M3000 for powercore and really like it, but I am curious to know what the difference is in the Vss3/Vss4 alogorithms.

Does the Vss4 have the edge with realism? Mind you I find the Vss3 very real in terms of its sound!

Thanks.
Hi,

to my ears theres a huge difference in quality, depth, 3D, realism between VSS3 and VSS4.

VSS4 is way better.

VSS4 is AWESOME (Reverb4 too), then in comparison the VSS3 sounds a little steril, but still a good reverb.

DVR2 and NonLin are great too, IMHO better than the VSS3 in sound quality, but this could be a personal taste.

i suggest to buy or demo a TC R4000 (not M4000 ) and i thinks you'll understand...
Old 22nd February 2007 | Show parent
  #3
Lives for gear
 
Ruudman's Avatar
 

I think, regarding the powercore platform, that the tc algo's released are complimenting each other very well. But you won't get a Reverb4000 in powercore. Not yet anyway

The VSS4 and MD4 are hardware only - for the time being.

If I was to get a new HW reverb, I think I'd get the 4000


ruudman
Old 22nd February 2007 | Show parent
  #4
Lives for gear
 
Dave Peck's Avatar
 

I've been using a Reverb4000 for a few weeks now and I absolutely love it. I can't offer a direct comparison to the 3000, but I can tell you that it's definitely a great sounding and very versatile hardware reverb (and the USB graphic interface is a huge plus that you don't get on the hardware version of the 3000). One thing to note - the 4000 does not include some of the non-reverb 'extras' that you do get in the 3000, like the chorus and pitch shifters. The 4000 is reverb only, but it's a very comprehensive reverb.

DP
Old 22nd February 2007 | Show parent
  #5
Lives for gear
 
audiomichael's Avatar
 

The Reverb 4000, is WAAAY better than the M3000. If you can't go 4000, than I'd just stick with plugins.

edited:
The Bricasti M7 is WAAAY better than the Reverb 4000 in every way (to my ears).

Last edited by audiomichael; 16th January 2009 at 08:55 PM.. Reason: A while after this post, I heard and bought an M7
Old 23rd February 2007 | Show parent
  #6
Lives for gear
 
Mastering101's Avatar
M3000 is strictly duel mono reverb...the 4000 has true stereo algorithms which makes it superior
Old 23rd February 2007 | Show parent
  #7
Lives for gear
 
theblotted's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by effectsnut View Post
M3000 is strictly duel mono reverb...the 4000 has true stereo algorithms which makes it superior
just outta curiosity, can you plz elaborate on stereo algo useage over dual mono?
Old 24th February 2007 | Show parent
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Mastering101's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblotted View Post
just outta curiosity, can you plz elaborate on stereo algo useage over dual mono?
The m3000 will take you stereo input and make it mono as it goes through
the reverb algorithm then convert it back to stereo on the way out which is not true stereo... the reverb 4000 has true stereo algorithms and will enter stereo
and leave uninterrupted in stereo which will give you a better and more realistic
reverb image ...important to some people not to others
Old 24th February 2007 | Show parent
  #9
F5D
Lives for gear
 
F5D's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeDanny View Post
VSS4 is AWESOME (Reverb4 too), then in comparison the VSS3 sounds a little steril, but still a good reverb.

DVR2 and NonLin are great too, IMHO better than the VSS3 in sound quality, but this could be a personal taste.
It must be personal. I haven't heard the vss4/reverb 4000/6000 but I own vss3 and imo it sounds superb compared to any other reverb I've heard. I also tested DVR2 and nonlin2 which were ok, especially the nonlin2 was good for some fx sounds but dvr2 was a little disappointment. I get much bigger, smoother and more realistic reverb from vss3.
Old 14th January 2009 | Show parent
  #10
Lives for gear
 
Nobilmente's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by effectsnut View Post
M3000 is strictly duel mono reverb...the 4000 has true stereo algorithms which makes it superior
Hi
I don't know what the truth of all this is, but just for the record, the comment below about the M3000 is from a Sound on Sound review. This was pretty much confirmed to me too by a well-known M3000 classical recording engineer/M3000 user.


"In Linked mode, the two Engines will link together to perform true stereo operation, one on the left channel and one on the right. This means that the preset in Engine 1 will be copied into Engine 2 and the edit pages will lock together."
Old 14th January 2009 | Show parent
  #11
Lives for gear
 
Mastering101's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobilmente View Post
Hi
I don't know what the truth of all this is, but just for the record, the comment below about the M3000 is from a Sound on Sound review. This was pretty much confirmed to me too by a well-known M3000 classical recording engineer/M3000 user.


"In Linked mode, the two Engines will link together to perform true stereo operation, one on the left channel and one on the right. This means that the preset in Engine 1 will be copied into Engine 2 and the edit pages will lock together."
If i were you I would download the manual. From what i remember when i owned a M3000 in 1999 was that you can load 2 of the same presets mono left and right. It was not capable of monolithic operation which is one algorithm running on 2 DSP engines running true stereo...The m3000 is no slouch I liked it.. I'm hoping TC comes out with a new rack unit with vss4 and effects at NAMM...Or Vss4 on the powercore 6000...
Old 14th January 2009 | Show parent
  #12
Lives for gear
 
Mastering101's Avatar
The block diagram shows mono in mono out of the DSP. So not true stereo... call those guys... So its a stereo unit because of left and right but not true stereo reverb....Still sounds great for the price...
Old 14th January 2009 | Show parent
  #13
Pat
Gear Addict
 
Pat's Avatar
 

I can only recommend the tc 4000.
You have to tweak it a bit.
A real beast once you know it.
Old 15th January 2009 | Show parent
  #14
Lives for gear
 
Mastering101's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat View Post
I can only recommend the tc 4000.
You have to tweak it a bit.
A real beast once you know it.
Have you heard the Bricasti? similar in some ways...I miss the control software
and its free with the 4000
Old 15th January 2009 | Show parent
  #15
Lives for gear
 
TheRealRoach's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by effectsnut View Post
The m3000 will take you stereo input and make it mono as it goes through
the reverb algorithm then convert it back to stereo on the way out which is not true stereo... the reverb 4000 has true stereo algorithms and will enter stereo
and leave uninterrupted in stereo which will give you a better and more realistic
reverb image ...important to some people not to others
This is incorrect. From the M3000 manual:
"To use the M3000 as a Stereo Reverb:
The VSS™ algorithm is basically a mono-input/stereo-output algorithm, but by using both Engines it is possible to turn the M3000 into a input/output Stereo Reverb."

I have done tests on my m3000 and it operates in stereo while in linked mode. For example: sending a signal into the left input while in linked mode (aka stereo mode) creates a stereo return that places the source heavily on the left side of the stereo image. This would not occur if there stereo were down mixed to mono for processing.
Old 15th January 2009 | Show parent
  #16
Lives for gear
 
Mastering101's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRealRoach View Post
This is incorrect. From the M3000 manual:
"To use the M3000 as a Stereo Reverb:
The VSS™ algorithm is basically a mono-input/stereo-output algorithm, but by using both Engines it is possible to turn the M3000 into a input/output Stereo Reverb."

I have done tests on my m3000 and it operates in stereo while in linked mode. For example: sending a signal into the left input while in linked mode (aka stereo mode) creates a stereo return that places the source heavily on the left side of the stereo image. This would not occur if there stereo were down mixed to mono for processing.
call TC and ask them...you cant see the block diagram in the manual?
Its not true stereo Reverb Not until you use a reverb 4000 VSS4 agorithm...
I'm talkin true stereo reverb. Not that its a big deal or anything
Also mono in algorithm is not true stereo reverb so you gave yourself the answer
Old 15th January 2009 | Show parent
  #17
Lives for gear
 
Nobilmente's Avatar
 

Hmm!

?????????
Old 15th January 2009 | Show parent
  #18
Lives for gear
 
Nobilmente's Avatar
 

I see on the T C Electronic site, that the M300 is listed as true Stereo Reverb - its algorithm (we should say algorhythm in a musical context!) is the Rev3, which is also listed as being available on the M3000.

Slightly confusing.
Old 15th January 2009 | Show parent
  #19
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobilmente View Post
I see on the T C Electronics site, that the M300 is listed as true Stereo Reverb - it's algorithm (we should say algorhythm in a music context!) is the Rev3, which is also listed as being available on the M3000.

Slightly confusing.
It's main algo is the VSS3, which TC introduced with the M3000. It also has the REV3, which originated in the M5000. The VSS3 is mono in - stereo out. Don't know about REV3, this might really be a true stereo algorythm.
Old 15th January 2009 | Show parent
  #20
Lives for gear
 
Tube World's Avatar
My understanding is the VSS4 are reverbs modeled on rooms, and not syththetic sounds that the VSS3 and all the Lex reverbs are on. So it's not that the VSS4 are better reverbs, their different. If you have a good convolution reverb then the VSS4 may not be needed as much.

Of course the VSS3 reverb is stereo!
Old 15th January 2009 | Show parent
  #21
Lives for gear
 
jamwerks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tube World View Post
My understanding is the VSS4 are reverbs modeled on rooms, and not syththetic sounds that the VSS3 and all the Lex reverbs are on. So it's not that the VSS4 are better reverbs, their different. If you have a good convolution reverb then the VSS4 may not be needed as much.

Of course the VSS3 reverb is stereo!
VSS3 isn't stereo true stereo. There are good discriptions and papers on the TC site. VSS4 is much better (no comparison imo) that VSS3. There are several threads and examples here on GS. I'm pretty sure that VSS3 was their top of the line up to about 7-8 years ago, now it's VSS4 and others. They both function in the same way, letting you control size, modulation etc.

I wouldn't suggest buying a M3000, but rather a powercore PCI e and the reverbs apart and you'll have up to 8 instances (more that you might need) as compared to only. If you want great true stereo reverbs, the Lexicon PCM96 gives you 2 instances compared to TC4000 one.

TC should (?) soon introduce the successors to the 4000 and 6000.
Old 16th January 2009 | Show parent
  #22
Lives for gear
 
Nobilmente's Avatar
 

[Sound on Sound quote]
"In Linked mode, the two Engines will link together to perform true stereo operation, one on the left channel and one on the right. This means that the preset in Engine 1 will be copied into Engine 2 and the edit pages will lock together."

I'm reading this as -
"The two channels of stereo are converted into mono for the application of the reverb, and then returned to stereo with the reverb added. Now that could mean that the reverb remains in mono when it is 'reconstituted", or equally it could be true stereo. If it is not true stereo, why are people all over the place, including the reviewer mentioned above, calling it true stereo - including T C Electronic, given that their description of the Rev3 algorithm (which is included as part of the M3000) as being true stereo. It's not that clear cut at all, there are unanswered questions.
Old 16th January 2009 | Show parent
  #23
Lives for gear
 
Mastering101's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobilmente View Post
[Sound on Sound quote]
"In Linked mode, the two Engines will link together to perform true stereo operation, one on the left channel and one on the right. This means that the preset in Engine 1 will be copied into Engine 2 and the edit pages will lock together."

I'm reading this as -
"The two channels of stereo are converted into mono for the application of the reverb, and then returned to stereo with the reverb added. Now that could mean that the reverb remains in mono when it is 'reconstituted", or equally it could be true stereo. If it is not true stereo, why are people all over the place, including the reviewer mentioned above, calling it true stereo - including T C Electronic, given that their description of the Rev3 algorithm (which is included as part of the M3000) as being true stereo. It's not that clear cut at all, there are unanswered questions.
forget sound on sound they are wrong and should remove that... I at one time called Tc and asked support if it was true stereo reverb. They said Quote" NO, Its stereo in to mono reverb algorithm out stereo Unquote" ....Stereo output but not true stereo reverberation.. One thing I really liked n the M3000 was some algorithms had real good early reflections. very strong and you could do some real cool stuff with it.
Old 16th January 2009 | Show parent
  #24
Lives for gear
 
Nobilmente's Avatar
 

I've got the chance of buying a new M3000 at half the retail price, which is one of the reasons I'm interested in the whole stereo thing. I suppose this might be because of the newer reverbs available. The price, however, is cheaper than I've seen anywhere else (in the world).

We record about 95% classical music on location. I think I may go along the path of getting the M3000 at this price as a new M4000 would be around four times as much.

I wonder why T C Electronic made the M2000 a true stereo reverb and followed up with the M3000 as a stereo into mono into stereo reverb. Strange move that - unless it doesn't really have much importance.
Old 16th January 2009 | Show parent
  #25
Lives for gear
 
TheRealRoach's Avatar
Confusion is arising with the terminology. What we have here is a difference between:
Stereo algorithms with stereo in/stereo out routing - M4000 (or the swing-term of "true stereo reverb")
Two mono->stereo algorithms with stereo in/stereo out routing - M3000 linked ("stereo reverb")
Two mono->stereo algorithms with mono in/stereo out routing - M3000 dual-input ("mono to stereo reverb")

This M3000 stereo/mono thing still needs more clarification.

In linked mode, the M3000 passes stereo signals uninterrupted to the stereo output without down mixing to mono. It would not rationally make sense for TC to design the linked mode to force both engines to process the same mono signal. This would be redundant. Why not instead left Engine 1 process the left input, and Engine 2 process the right.... well this is what they did. Although the algorithms are mono to stereo, the routing is not. This is the fundamental difference. It applies a post-input, pre-DSP pan to make sure the left and right are treated exclusively from one another.

Take this scenario: you have two mono delay units (or flangers, compressors, eqs, whatever) You send the left side of a stereo bus to one of the delay units whose return is panned left, and so the same, respectively for the right. This is still stereo processing although you are applying mono "algorithms".

It seems that effectsnut is confusing Linked mode with Dual-Input mode. In Dual-Input mode all input sources are treated as mono, center. It would be a shame if the reason for selling the unit was due to a misunderstanding of its routing. In any case i'm sure the M4000 is killer.
Old 16th January 2009 | Show parent
  #26
Lives for gear
 
Mastering101's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRealRoach View Post
Confusion is arising with the terminology. What we have here is a difference between:
Stereo algorithms with stereo in/stereo out routing - M4000 (or the swing-term of "true stereo reverb")
Two mono->stereo algorithms with stereo in/stereo out routing - M3000 linked ("stereo reverb")
Two mono->stereo algorithms with mono in/stereo out routing - M3000 dual-input ("mono to stereo reverb")

This M3000 stereo/mono thing still needs more clarification.

In linked mode, the M3000 passes stereo signals uninterrupted to the stereo output without down mixing to mono. It would not rationally make sense for TC to design the linked mode to force both engines to process the same mono signal. This would be redundant. Why not instead left Engine 1 process the left input, and Engine 2 process the right.... well this is what they did. Although the algorithms are mono to stereo, the routing is not. This is the fundamental difference. It applies a post-input, pre-DSP pan to make sure the left and right are treated exclusively from one another.

Take this scenario: you have two mono delay units (or flangers, compressors, eqs, whatever) You send the left side of a stereo bus to one of the delay units whose return is panned left, and so the same, respectively for the right. This is still stereo processing although you are applying mono "algorithms".

It seems that effectsnut is confusing Linked mode with Dual-Input mode. In Dual-Input mode all input sources are treated as mono, center. It would be a shame if the reason for selling the unit was due to a misunderstanding of its routing. In any case i'm sure the M4000 is killer.
Thats what i was saying= true stereo reverb algorithm not stereo vs Mono unit.
even 2 linked reverb algorithms is not one true stereo reverb algorithm. anytime you have one source going into one reverb its because its mono reverb on the M3000...even 2 reverbs linked on the M3000 is not monolithic operation Its dual mono controlled by one set of parameters
Old 17th January 2009 | Show parent
  #27
Lives for gear
 
Nobilmente's Avatar
 

Thanks everyone for contributing to this subject. I've got it clearly now I think.

The algorithms are calculated on the individual channels of a stereo input, but not after they have been summed into mono.

Given that digital reverb is not "real" in anycase, I guess that having the reverb created on two separate legs of a stereo input is not an enormous drawback. The M3000 seems to have many advocates too in these pages. The cost of the new M3000 for me, at 25% of a new M4000, seems the way to go. Of course, the M4000 would be nice to have, but there are always cost considerations at whatever level you approach these things, and the m3000 does appear to have FX's which the M4000 does not have, and so would be a machine to keep if and M4000 were bought later on.

I'm assuming, now that I understand that the stereo signal is not summed into mono, that if needed, the M3000 might even be useable as a handy AD 24bit 44.1 kHz converter if the need arose.

I'm very grateful to all of you for the discussion and the information you've given. Thanks effectsnut and Mike.

All the best
Old 17th January 2009 | Show parent
  #28
Lives for gear
 
jamwerks's Avatar
 

You should be able to pick up a powercore PCI E card with VSS3 for about 700 bucks on ebay and that would give you many more instances of verbs + other plug for less money
Old 17th January 2009 | Show parent
  #29
Lives for gear
 
TheRealRoach's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobilmente View Post
*snip*
I'm assuming, now that I understand that the stereo signal is not summed into mono, that if needed, the M3000 might even be useable as a handy AD 24bit 44.1 kHz converter if the need arose.
*snip*
I'll check about this when I get to the studio. There is an "I/O" menu where you select the I/O format, Analog, AES/EBU, ADAT. The unit itself does have a latency to it, being digital and all... I believe it's about 0.3ms. I can check about this too.

I personally like having the hardware instead of the software verbs because it doesn't exert any load on the system and because i enjoy the tactile experience more of being able to push buttons and dial in settings. I also like the idea that the hardware verbs will retain their value much better than software verbs, even if they are pci/pcie card based, and - on the same train of thought - I will always be able to use it, even if i go to a strict analog -only system, or likewise when Windows 9 comes out and the operating system is a chip implanted in our brain. I don't think PCI cards will be compatible with that... or if they are, they certainly wouldn't be very fashionable.... unless they're retro by that time... i'll stop now.
Old 17th January 2009 | Show parent
  #30
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
I had two M3000's for many years. They are really great at creating realistic spaces, and some nice lush reverbs. I never cared about true stereo reverbs as I always drive them off a mono effects send, and let them create a stereo reverb effect.

For a true stereo reverb that is affordable, find yourself a Roland R880, which I also had two of for quite some time. Also good with ambience effects as well as kick ass in your face sort of reverb. Best value out there i.m.o. I did set them up with stereo sends for true stereo reverb, but not sure if that is really such a big deal anyway.
📝 Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 38 views: 8915
Avatar for AcoosticZoo
AcoosticZoo 14th September 2009
replies: 11 views: 14129
Avatar for LeMauce
LeMauce 25th November 2011
replies: 73 views: 17731
Avatar for SDM_Slut
SDM_Slut 16th April 2020
replies: 51 views: 11652
Avatar for GBP
GBP 1st September 2019
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
🖨️ Show Printable Version
✉️ Email this Page
🔍 Search thread
🎙️ View mentioned gear
Forum Jump
Forum Jump