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2" Tape is dead long live Pro Tools!!! Dynamics Processors (HW)
Old 16th October 2002
  #91
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

jon, you are far too rigid in your thinking it makes me wonder how well you actually CAN do this ART. your view regarding the art of recording is quite ignorant, elitist, pompous, and arrogant.

i would be willing to bet that independant recordists learn far more than in the traditional apprentice/master relationship without being confined to the limited knowledge of the "master" and the rules they possess.

and the internet only stretches that knowledge base on a world wide level. there are very few people who have a stronghold on superior talent to everyone else. gifted and talented people are all around. i have met, hung out with, dranken with, smoked with, and worked with many fine talented people all over... if you cant find them maybe its you that should get off your egotistical pillar and look for yourself. i have no problem meeting them.
Old 16th October 2002
  #92
Lives for gear
 
Fibes's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon
BTW, I'd be interested to meet/hear some of the most talented people you are referring to. Maybe we don't have the same standards, because incredible talent seems very rare to me, but I am always looking for genius people, whether engineers, assistants or artists.
You can drop by anytime, just call first.
Old 17th October 2002
  #93
Jon - you put the traditional assisting route on a pedestal above DIY home studio learning, yet you admit you haven't taken that route yourself at all.

Q - How can you diss 'teaching yourself' then? Have you somehow skipped that stage because of superior aptitude? What? Please do explain!

Jon said: "Critically, there are many things one can simply not hear as well, nor record as well, in a typical non-purpose built home control room/studio due to acoustics, size, and monitoring -- typical problems encountered in small studios.

Q - Would somewhere where you CAN hear these things be by chance.... (hang on - don't tell me, this sounds familiar, so I think I can get this one!) - YOUR NEW STUDIO?

And - "Then there is functional engineering. There are many formats and machines that one does not find in a typical home studio, and competence on a wide range of them, not just Pro Tools, is a given for a well-rounded freelance engineer."

Well rounded now is it? OK, well how about able to record well whatever comes through the door, that keeps us all here on an even playing field without you moving the goal posts ever wider..

"Working with the best people, rooms, acoustics, monitors and gear, hearing and understanding what the top standards are and where you can go with them, is a critical step that the DIY home studist does not usually have the opportunity to experience deeply."

I dont agree, I hear masterworks from dedicated home recordists that frustrate the biggest studio owners on a regular basis.

Clearly you are digging your new classy studio digs but I feel you must temper that with some humility and clear respect of the unquantifiable talent of others out there, it really is the great unknown for you and you can't ****can unheard engineering based on preconceptions.

Perhaps you are a "born again world class" engineer...

Praise the SSL for he hath saved us!

Is that it? heh

And to Charles Jon said:

"Again, while I felt your mixes were well-done and did a good job of serving the song -- which I agree is key and more important than pure sonics and which I complimented you on after the presentation "

Q - Which of the two (servicing the song & Sonics) was, shall we say...'left out' of your compliments? It's unclear and leads interpretation directly to a "veiled insult" to one of them!

Also "Where we disagree is about how that person can ideally learn."

Q - Ideally learn? Have YOU had an 'ideal education in engineering'? What is 'ideal' ? - I think this is a bogus term usage along with the above mentioned 'well rounded' - both mean - nothing really.

Finally,

Jon said - "but I am always looking for genius people, whether engineers, assistants or artists."

That's a noble pursuit I suppose, what is not of course, is imagining one every time you see your own reflection.

Old 17th October 2002
  #94
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C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
"Working with the best people, rooms, acoustics, monitors and gear, hearing and understanding what the top standards are and where you can go with them, is a critical step that the DIY home studist does not usually have the opportunity to experience deeply."

I dont agree, I hear masterworks from dedicated home recordists that frustrate the biggest studio owners on a regular basis.


I agree with the fact that you can hear masterworks coming from home recordists Jules ... but they are rather rare ... most home recordings sound bad. I do not mean performance or vibe or whatever ... I mean "sound" wise. I agree 100 % with Jon's point of view that rooms / acoustics / monitors and gear DO make a difference.

Now what Jon has to realise is that if those elements are available : rooms / acoustics / monitors and gear (and with gear I mean outboard) .... there is very little reason why a production done in a daw should sound worse then one done with a large console and 2 inch.
Old 17th October 2002
  #95
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Knox's Avatar
 

Jules . . . . . are you aware that you used the word "unquantifiable" in a sentence to describe something in the music business?

Maybe you are too damn smart to be in this business. Dummy up would ya? One syllable words are best . . . . . two syllables if you HAVE to. Especially when you are talking to us tape guys.

Did you slobber when you used that word? . . . If so, then it is ok. GEEEZ!
Old 17th October 2002
  #96
Dummy up?

oh most certainly!

undubebedubbly!

I concurr!

Without reservation! (one can travel standby you know....?)

Consider it,

DONE!

dfegadlong wordz

Tomorows word will be carrot!

heh
Old 17th October 2002
  #97
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e-cue's Avatar
 

"I DIDN'T WANNA BE IN YOUR STUPID CLUB ANYWAY"

*runs into bedroom, slams door, and plays Indie DIY record real loud to piss of parents*

Old 17th October 2002
  #98
Ummmm......

Without fanning any flames, I kinda took Jon's assesment not as slam, but an acknowledgement of the general lack of training of home studio guys. Most home studio guys wouldn't know how to properly transfer stuff to or from 2" tape, don't understand proper gain staging, don't have properly treated rooms, etc...

That doesn't by any stretch mean all or discount those that have learned what they need to properly capture an artists vision. It simply means that as a general statement, most 'untrained' home studio guys aren't up to snuff 'technically'.
Old 17th October 2002
  #99
Jon makes out that any good work on a DAW must be some sort of miracle.

My point is that there are far more 'miracle workers' out there than he gives credit for.

In the past Jon has had to suffer a lot of badly recorded R&B and RAP music coming in for him to mix, two midi centered genres that are not usually associated with much 'mic recording' at all IMHO.

Anyhow, less reference to clueless home recordists if you please, we are talking about THE GUYS! - THE GANG! - us here! We rock, do we not?!

Are we not good? (we ain't Devo thats for sure)

Solidarity! (sorry Knox! 5 syllables!)

Build up - not tear down - tool is a tool - use it to make something (or wear protection)



BTW I can tell you that several students on my new 'Drink esspresso and get pissed off that you don't know how to do stuff' correspondance course are doing very well!
Old 17th October 2002
  #100
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Knox's Avatar
 

DUH! . . . . . what does "5" mean?
Old 17th October 2002
  #101
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Brad Blackwood
an acknowledgement of the general lack of training of home studio guys. Most home studio guys wouldn't know how to properly transfer stuff to or from 2" tape, don't understand proper gain staging, don't have properly treated rooms, etc....
well, MOST is a stretch. SOME dont know this... but a LOT of people DO know proper gainstaging. maybe they dont know how to work with 2" [i do] because they dont have the NEED to. working in digital is FAR different than working in analog. maybe they dont have properly treated room... but that is a HUGE expense most cant afford BUT they find work arounds for that. i know of a guy who in a LARGE CR would sit a boombox with an AUX IN on top of a Neve console, mix his WHOLE album on it not even bothering to check the mains or the nearfields.

and this whole sonics debate is SO SUBJECTIVE. when it really comes down to it its ALL ABOUT THE SONG. a great song and a capable engineer can take a VS880 with some crappy ass mics and make it sound cool as ****. its all about being proactive instead of reactive.

we want to talk about this like its art yet look at painting as an analogy. jon is basically saying that oil based realism is the ONLY way to go. was picasso better as a realism painter or was his work better later on when he abandoned all rules? or realism in general... is this the only way to paint? how about salvador dali and his surrealistic bent? or how about the graffitti artist? how does his cans of spray paint compare to expensive oils... and is it any less real because it wasnt made on a stretched canvas? or take it to photography, was ansel adams super clarity they only proper way to take pictures? [btw, i have seen digital photographs BLOW ansels stuff out of the water with detail and clarity]
Old 17th October 2002
  #102
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
well, MOST is a stretch. SOME dont know this... but a LOT of people DO know proper gainstaging.
I don't agree - you cannot lump yourself and the small percentage of home studio people (the ones in the know) in with the vast maojority of home studio guys. You have to realize that guys like yourself are esoteric and unusual.

But I agree that in general it doesn't matter. If you can please the artist and serve the music, it doesn't matter if you work in a bedroom or a multi-million dollar facilty. Period.
Old 17th October 2002
  #103
Gear Addict
 
mplancke's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
>Jon - you put the traditional assisting route on a pedestal above >DIY home studio learning, yet you admit you haven't taken that >route yourself at all.

Q - How can you diss 'teaching yourself' then? Have you somehow skipped that stage because of superior aptitude? What? Please do explain!
I went the "teaching yourself" route. Certainly not the easiest thing in the world to do. I think I would have definitely benefited from being in the thick on things on a session earlier on because I would have been exposed to many different techniques and aspects of what goes into making a record. Instead I read alot and practiced on many, many bands. Eight years later I think I'm beggining to get a handle on things.

I have a habit of doing this in my life. I did the same thing 20 years ago in my first career, computer programming 101 - sink or swim.
Old 17th October 2002
  #104
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Fibes's Avatar
 

I choose to listen (watch) and learn rather than blathering on about my relative superiority. The one reason for this is that if you listen you hear a new point of view... What good is there in speaking if you already know what you're going to say? When you stop learning you might as well be dead. When you rely on crutches and whine about it, you're not learning.

To quote the unknown: "It's the pilot not the plane." ....of course some pilots are insecure enough to require the perceived "holy grail" for their insipid sipping.


Brad,

I agree that there are plenty of crappy home recordists out there and Jon's SSL/2" combo can't help them. Hell, it may not help...
Old 17th October 2002
  #105
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Knox's Avatar
 

AJ . . I understand in theory what you mean, and some of it I agree with, but just because a rap artist is in a movie next to DeNiro . . . . it doesn't make him an actor. It means some 'suit' has decided this would make money. Is a rap artist a "musician" just because he makes noises that some find pleasing? Would you compare him to a real musician that has learned a musical instrument and chord structure? I don't. He raps . . . not a musician . . per se.
(yea I know some people are going to disagree)

Is a person that buys a digital camera and lucks up on a great photo a real ARTIST like Ansel Adams? (Not talking about the photos you have seen, talking about some person in the neighborhood that buys a camera)

Is a guy in a basement, that does indeed, at times make a good noise, really an engineer? Not saying he can't make some relevant music at times . . . . but is he a REAL engineer?

Again . . . I'm not talking about guys like you that know what they are doing that have a studio in their house.

I think the formats are important for capturing certain situations. You, in particular buy the mic pres you like and the mics for the same reasons. Given a situation, would you not use the right gear to capture the right sound? Would you not bring the right person to capture it (an engineer)?

Believe me . . . . if I recorded Britney Spears . . .you can bet your ass I would be doing it in some digital format that could be edited to death. If you got a call to record Zepplin (with Bonham) or any kick ass rock band . . . . would you honestly record them with Digital Performer with a guy (not an experienced professional) that has a computer set-up in his house?

I feel SOME people get very defensive about recording on a computer, in a home, because that is what they have and can afford (I can relate to monetary constraints) . . . . but is that the optimum format / situation for many recordings?
Old 17th October 2002
  #106
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Fibes's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Knox
If you got a call to record Zepplin (with Bonham) or any kick ass rock band . . . . would you honestly record them with Digital Performer with a guy that has a computer set-up in his house?
People rent houses and throw a PT system, a Radar or whatever in there and make some of the best albums out there currently. You know who they are. If digital Performer was Flood's, Bud's or Lanios' fave you bet I/you would. Rationalisation can get us nowhere.

BTW I don't currently record in my house but some of the best things I've ever done have been in houses. Fortunately I live in an Historic city with lots of great Great spaces but...
Old 17th October 2002
  #107
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Knox's Avatar
 

Of course . . . if you had those guys recording it or guys of that level. Many of my favorite recordings were done that way. I love the under dog, don't get me wrong and I love anyone doing things that are left of center. A great, experienced engineer can record great records anywhere. Lanois is a GREAT example.
Old 17th October 2002
  #108
" If you got a call to record Zepplin (with Bonham) or any kick ass rock band . . . . would you honestly record them with Digital Performer with a guy that has a computer set-up in his house?"

Actually, hand on heart, having heard his work, I would have no reservations about sending them to Alphajerks studio. - Honest!

Old 17th October 2002
  #109
Han
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Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk



and this whole sonics debate is SO SUBJECTIVE. when it really comes down to it its ALL ABOUT THE SONG. a great song and a capable engineer can take a VS880 with some crappy ass mics and make it sound cool as ****. its all about being proactive instead of reactive.

But it would sound so much better with great mics and a two inch 16 track.
Old 17th October 2002
  #110
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

i understand what you are saying knox... because im kinda saying the same thing. give a amateur a keychain camera [you know the ones they gave away for free that used 110 film] and give a professional the same camera... the professional will take far better pictures every single time.

this also shows where im coming from with the medium as well. the medium is moot. its what you DO with the medium that makes all the difference.

see, i agree with some things you say... like some guy who bought cool edit pro and does little demos in his room, or even on a vs880 or something. those guys might not get the best possible sound... thats what differentiates them from people who are dedicated to the ART of recording. those who do it, experiment, whatever who make the medium transparent and the final product is all that stands.

saying 2" is ALWAYS better regardless of the engineer is silly. look at steve albini. his **** sucks ass, a die hard analog fan but it doesnt make him any better at recording. its not the medium that makes the songs great. its the song, the players, the room... and then the engineer being able to figure how it is all going to fit together in the end.

p.s. i would do a zepplinesque band all digital in a split second. go buy Clutch's jam roon [done on ADAT's] and it sounds immaculate.
Old 17th October 2002
  #111
Jax
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Quote:
Originally posted by e-cue
"I DIDN'T WANNA BE IN YOUR STUPID CLUB ANYWAY"

*runs into bedroom, slams door, and plays Indie DIY record real loud to piss of parents*

LMAO! Thanx for the 1st good laugh of the day. hehehe
Old 17th October 2002
  #112
Jax
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Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk

its all about being proactive instead of reactive.
That phrase is starting to make me cringe because it sounds like it could have rolled off the lips of George Bush, Sr.
Old 17th October 2002
  #113
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Knox's Avatar
 

AJ . . I disagree with the "medium" not being important. Tape is more pleasing to my ears and creates more of the vibe / sound I am looking for. Though I agree with you . . . . tape is not the ONLY answer by far.
Old 18th October 2002
  #114
Gear Head
 

2" Tape sucks!!!grggt

dfegad rollz 2" Tape is making me it is such an old format. Do not get me wrong it "sounds" great but how the hell are you gonna get 85 channels of choir on these mere ass 24 tracks without bouncing or having 5 Studer 2" Tape Machines. Give up this bull **** about it sounds so good and I love punching in live and all that crap.

Just buy 32 pieces of the Cranesong hedd 192 that will give you 64 channels of Tape emulated sound right on to your SSL, and will only cost you 32*3500$=112000$>>>discount>>>80000$ equals 1 Studer 24 track crap machine.

And while I am at it, why do we not just get rid of the whole analogue section and buy Neumanns Solution-D Microphone and go just freakin digital right in to the Cranesong Hedd 192 and use Triode, Pentode and Tape button for the analogue feel straight into PT HD at 192 kHz sample rate and you tell me "JON" if you can get that sound on your freakin dfegad 2". I find Jules being a really nice guy and I support him 1000%. I started this post and I knew there would be loud Discussions, and my advise to JON and his gang calm down we Pro Tools user are only gonna put you old 2" out of business soon, very soon.

I can feel the old "big" studio owners going competition oh no.

Tomorrow I am helping the biggest studio in Sweden with the installation of his PT HD3 system he is a 2" guy and does'nt know **** about editing or even starting the computer that's a tragedy, you gotta stay with your time man.

The Beatels recorded all their hits on 4 tracks, but hey man that was the best format that was available at that time, ask Sir Paul M'carthy what the hell he has been using on his latest albums about 50 tracks so why the hell did he not stay with working on 4 tracks. It is totally clear to me I used 128 tracks on my last production. And the system was running 4 months,7 days a week, 24 hours a day with no CRASH!!! Try to beat that with dfegad 2"

Jules, thanx!

:eek: Oh no, JON the space clowns will eat you...

There is something wrong wiyh my face

I believe in Neumanns Solution-D, finally all Digital only ones and zeros
Old 18th October 2002
  #115
Han
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2"tape sucks, do you ever get (very) tired of yourself?
Old 18th October 2002
  #116
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Steve Smith's Avatar
 

Quote:
2" Tape is making me it is such an old format. Do not get me wrong it "sounds" great but how the hell are you gonna get 85 channels of choir on these mere ass 24 tracks without bouncing or having 5 Studer 2
umm,, hire a an 85 voice choir and Bruce Sweiden?

Quote:
ask Sir Paul M'carthy what the hell he has been using on his latest albums about 50 tracks so why the hell did he not stay with working on 4 tracks
Yep, and look at all those 2" machines slaved together...

and to repeat the best bit of knowlege to be found here, it is the slut that matters most, not the gear...
Old 18th October 2002
  #117
Gear Addict
 

Why do you need 85 tracks to record a choir?

Bear
Old 18th October 2002
  #118
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alphajerk's Avatar
 

i was wondering that myself.
Old 18th October 2002
  #119
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
I want to know about the 85 track choir myself. Didn't Nuemann drop the idea of a digital mic? I saw some press about it and that was it. No pricing, no reviews, no nothing. Kind of like that Beyer digital mic.
Old 18th October 2002
  #120
Gear Maniac
 
Neve Sucks!'s Avatar
 

oooooverdubs.....2 background vocalists and 85 tr of protools. Not a gospel choir......
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