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Crosstalk Issues with API 8200A Summing Mixer
Old 20th June 2007
  #61
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camus's Avatar
 

Quote:
There is no "cure" for the initial concerns. The question was presented to him about operating levels, that were never really answered.
But he did. See below.

Quote:
The system seems to be calibrated fine. I am coming out of a Digi 192. It only does +4 out. I calibrated it according to Digi's info on their site. I sent out a 1K tone using the PT tone generator to each output individually at -18 and measured pins 2 and 3 on a volt meter. They were all right around 1.228 volts which is correct.

Quote:
Also, the comment relates to any business that uses the equipment. Each industry has it's own version of what a HIT is. I would hope that you could see past that. A hit ad, a hit TV intro, even the ESPN 7 second lead-ins are hits.
Well, I've cut hundreds of spots for broadcast but I would in no way classify myself as a "hitmaker". I'm just a working professional. Best to leave the "hitmaking" ethos to wide-eyed 19 year-old Full Sail students, no?
Old 20th June 2007
  #62
Quote:
Originally Posted by camus View Post
But he did. See below.

Well, I've cut hundreds of spots for broadcast but I would in no way classify myself as a "hitmaker". I'm just a working professional. Best to leave the "hitmaking" ethos to wide-eyed 19 year-old Full Sail students, no?
Personally, I enjoy ads and spots better than most songs, so to me, you are a hit maker. Plus, every ad that plays might sell a product. That's more than we can say about the record industry...

The system is no doubt calibrated, but my concern was what levels he was running at. If he records hot, then that will add to the problem.
Old 20th June 2007
  #63
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Quote:
I would say you are on to something... but I would also say that in the end there could be many factors here. Maybe there was a production run problem with a few units? Maybe there was a problem with that specific unit? Maybe, and no offence intended to the original poster, there was a mistake in the usage of the equipment?
I'm not sure it was a mistake, but I am fairly certain that the reason that this is not a common complaint for these mixers is because of the way he's using it. Most people use these mixers as stereo mixers (I'm fairly certain), but in this particular case the original poster was using it in a rather unusual way...drums to one side and piano to the other side, for monitoring. Plus running through a mastering limiter...I would venture to guess that for most people, using it as a stereo summing mixer, there's no practical situation where the cutoff 50 dB down would be an issue. Otherwise I'm sure we would have heard from more dissatisfied users on this thread, because any time anyone has a problem with a piece of gear (or manufacturer, or retailer, or client, or phone company etc) on this forum people seem to come out of the woodwork to bash it. Here all we have are a few people saying that they have chosen not to buy one based purely on what they've read here, but nobody reporting a similar issue (that I recall at least...it's been a few months since I read the majority of the thread).

I would go so far as to say that if I were buying a mixer to create two separate mono monitor mixes with entirely different instrumentation in each mix, then I would not choose the 8200a.

Quote:
API has a great sound - if I want it I'll use the 3124mb+
I would be interested to hear, just for curiosity's sake, what the cutoff levels were on the 3124mb+ as well...I woudln't be surprised if they were exactly the same as they are on the 8200a, and you didn't notice because it's not a problem in most cases.

I too am a little surprised that you'd choose a Dangerous after considering an API...
Old 20th November 2008
  #64
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mpapatonis's Avatar
 

Sorry to bring an old post back to life but I haven't been on the forum for quite some time and I just read through all of the posts/responses.

Paul, I agree with you that tone is the most important factor. So much so, that I still have the 8200a. I was just a bit surprised at the specs, but you have answered some of my questions as to why it may be like that.

As to the fact that I was using the unit in an "unconventional" manner, I would agree with that. I don't normally use it for that purpose but I wanted to impart it's "tone" on the split tracks that I was mixing. Again, just surprised that it allowed that much bleed between the channels.

I'd like to thank some of you for the lecture about the mastering limiter adding to the problem. I didn't know that a limiter would bring up lower level sounds making the bleed worse. Is that what they do? heh LOL Please give me SOME credit. I understand that this compounded the issue but I was still surprised that lesser quality gear did not have that problem with or without the limiter at the end of the chain. BTW, no need to re-explain why that is the case. I understand now. Still surprised, but I understand.

The personal attack was a bit harsh though. I may indeed never have a hit record - mainly because I don't work in the record business which is in the toilet. I make a VERY healthy living in other aspects of the recording industry working for large corporations and ad firms. I like them better. They pay on time.

Regardless, the gear has to meet a need. In that particular case it did not. It has however met my need for tone when I need to produce/record music for these same clients. And again, for that reason I still have the unit.

Best,

Michael
Old 20th November 2008
  #65
Just keep in mind that the 8200 was done for the simple reason to provide a Dangerous type summer with a different tone. Still today, this is the first complaint I have heard. But, you could always sell it and buy a Tonelux system, but I wouldn't be able to quote the specs.
Old 20th November 2008
  #66
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mpapatonis's Avatar
 

Understood and agreed. The 8200 meets the need for those of us who want summing with character. I've tried other summing mixers and have kept the API because I like the sound. I own a lot of API gear for that reason (as well as other high quality pieces).

Perhaps in the future I will try your Tonelux equipment. But I have to say this is a pretty rough start to a business relationship. I never accused you of anything on this forum. I simply posed a question about an issue that I was having with the API.

To say that "it doesn't matter because I'm not making hit records with it" is a strong statement. In the future perhaps you shouldn't make accusations about my "hit making" ability. You don't know anything about me and your comment was insulting. Trust me, at the rates I charge and the money that I spend on gear, IT DOES MATTER - to my clients and to me.

Thank you.
Old 20th November 2008
  #67
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TheSweetener's Avatar
 

When I read this thread und Pauls reactions I just thought:
this is exactly the way a designer or manufacturer should NOT react. Even if he's no longer in the company.

I like API stuff and I'm sure the Tonelux stuff is great but IMHO Paul's statements were unfortunately not as professional as his gear.

Still I'm interested to know if the bad crosstalk specs of the 8200a are real or not. Regardless if people make hit records with them or not!
Old 20th November 2008
  #68
Lets be real. The last post was almost a year and a half ago. If you are still hurting, maybe you need a little thicker skin. This industry is much harder than I am to survive in. When I made that comment, I was referring to the fact that there wasn't any outside pressure on you to correct a situation or problem with a mix or that the mix was being held up until it was corrected. The 8200 is a great solution and offers an alternative to the Dangerous, which has much better specs in that regard, but it was designed to have it that way. The Dangerous 2-bus is also nearly twice as much and the 8200 has level, panning, 2 sends and solo.

The actual problem is not really a crosstalk problem. It is a cut-off problem, where the pan put isn't turning off completely. It could be improved by adding some ground wires around the panner. Crosstalk would be if channel 1 was bleeding into channel 2 when channel 1 was off. This is a left right thing.

Time to move on.
Old 20th November 2008
  #69
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mpapatonis's Avatar
 

Paul,

Agreed that this is an old post. I mentioned that when I replied recently. If you read the whole thing, you'll also notice that I said that I haven't been on the forum for quite some time so all of this was new to me. I'm not still hurting from a year and a half ago. I just read these for the first time and felt that you were being unfair in your judgment.

I've been nothing but civil with you and you've been nothing but abrasive.
As to your last comment, most of the companies that I do work for are bigger and in many ways more demanding than record labels so can we stop acting like anyone who doesn't work inside the record industry doesn't have a real job or real deadlines or real issues. IMO, it's very elitist and no way to treat potential customers.

For the record, in addition to my production company, I teach audio part-time at a college, write for one of the major audio trade magazines, and do consulting work for many large churches in the area. In short, I influence a lot of purchasing. I can't say that this has left a great impression on me. But thanks again for the lecture on how to survive in a business that I'm doing just fine in.
Old 20th November 2008
  #70
Gear Head
 
elmono's Avatar
 

...

I have worked on a lot of records.. been doing this for 21+ years and i have to say.. i am emotionally attached to the sound of api... if it sounds good i use it and love it.

Paul i am a fan.

Thank You,
Old 20th November 2008
  #71
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpapatonis View Post
Paul,

Agreed that this is an old post. I mentioned that when I replied recently. If you read the whole thing, you'll also notice that I said that I haven't been on the forum for quite some time so all of this was new to me. I'm not still hurting from a year and a half ago. I just read these for the first time and felt that you were being unfair in your judgment.

I've been nothing but civil with you and you've been nothing but abrasive.
As to your last comment, most of the companies that I do work for are bigger and in many ways more demanding than record labels so can we stop acting like anyone who doesn't work inside the record industry doesn't have a real job or real deadlines or real issues. IMO, it's very elitist and no way to treat potential customers.

For the record, in addition to my production company, I teach audio part-time at a college, write for one of the major audio trade magazines, and do consulting work for many large churches in the area. In short, I influence a lot of purchasing. I can't say that this has left a great impression on me. But thanks again for the lecture on how to survive in a business that I'm doing just fine in.
You are missing my point. I never degraded what you do. I was (as I said before) commenting on the fact that it doesn't matter if you like the sound and the tone you get, and if no one is insisting that it is unacceptable because of it, then there is a work around.

If I have offended you, then I am sorry, but what I say is the truth about the industry. If you choose not to suggest my stuff because of this, then you may be doing a customer a disservice by suggesting something that may not be in his best interests and needs. If you are willing to do that, then you are just getting even with me, which serves no purpose. I would be happy to modify it for you if it would solve your cutoff problem.

And, to Jim, they have sold more of these than any other simple summing system out there, so there must be some value in them other than slew rate and not sounding like a Soundcraft..
Old 20th November 2008
  #72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Can you quote the specs of the 8200 then?

Crosstalk, pan wiper cut-off, leakage, mute switches, whatever the cause, it's measurable.

My cheap Soundcraft with pan buffers and fader recovery amps measures -90 db at 10k hz. That's with cheap 90 cent Japanese Alps pots. I can clip the inputs and still no pan pot cut-off, leakage or crosstalk problems.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
I don't know if you can remember, but I don't work for them and don't own the company any longer. My suggestion is that if you really want to know, measure it. I never did, they never did, and except for this thread and you, most really don't care, as they are making great sounding recordings and are making money.
Old 20th November 2008
  #73
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nosebleedaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
For public information, anyone can send one of these to me and I will perform the crosstalk measurements with the Audio Precision and post the results here, without charge. You pay shipping.

The fact that this is considered a high end audio piece and was never qualified or tested leaves me a bit baffled. Crosstalk (leakage, pot wiper residual resistance, capacitive coupling or whatever) is a non sonically related spec, as is noise. That has nothing to do with tone, but is is an important consideration unless you mix in mono.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
I agree, if it was my design I would have been curious how well it performs...

In fact I have measured API's pres, Eq's ect for my own info, and found problems/issues that MY clients were not aware of. One is the older 512b pin 3 was hot on the mic input... I mentioned this before on this forum to see if anyone else had noticed this...
Old 20th November 2008
  #74
Gear Nut
 
mpapatonis's Avatar
 

Paul,

I believe that we got off on the wrong foot. I would never trash talk your product. That would be unprofessional. Besides, I know that Tonelux and API make great gear (who doesn't?). As I said before, I still own the summing mixer, even with the bleed issue, because I like the tone.

I was just surprised at how aggressive the correspondence was. I was simply looking for some input from the audio community on an issue that DOES exist. I wasn't expecting such a heated debate or personal attacks. Please keep in mind that I didn't post any of the accusations directed at you.

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck and I hope that our paths cross sometime so that we can have a drink and laugh about this.

Thanks.
Old 12th October 2013
  #75
Here for the gear
 

I have the 8200A and I made a test to check the crosstalk. I sent a mono track to one 8200 channel, and panned it completely to the left, then sent the output (left and right) of the 8200 to a stereo audio track in Pro Tools and recorded it. There is absolutely no audio recorded on the right side, no crosstalk at all
Old 6th September 2016
  #76
Here for the gear
 

Wow, the last post here....
Old 6th September 2016
  #77
Maybe you should use it for mixing and not testing and see if the record fails. If it does, it's absolutely because of the crosstalk.
Old 30th September 2016
  #78
Here for the gear
 

Lol Paul yr vibe on here really makes me want to get my hands on some of yr product
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