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Crosstalk Issues with API 8200A Summing Mixer
Old 19th February 2007
  #31
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Old 19th February 2007
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sizzleboy View Post
For future reference, net etiquette dictates that when a statement ends with one of these guys heh or the pre html :-) or it means it's a joke.
I didn't even see it. Sorry that I jumped all over you. Now I'm laughing.
Old 19th February 2007
  #33
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Before you start quoting figures of -55dB, you should really tell us exactly how you arrived at this measurement. Do you have an audio voltmeter? At what frequency was this measured?

This is how it should be done;

Feed in 0dBu at 1 khz into 1 channel only panned hard left. Turn all other channels down or mute them. Calibrate that input so that the device is outputting 0dBu on the left main out with the Master full. Pan it hard right and check the right output is also 0dBu. Now, pan it back left and measure the residual on the right output. You can do this at 100Hz 1kHz and 10kHz to get an idea of how the crosstalk varies with frequency.

Usually the weakest link in consoles for L/R crosstalk is the pan pot circuit. A good console should show -70dBu at 1kHz, but -60dBu is not uncommon. This usually rises with frequency, and -50dBu at 10k is not uncommon.

Tim.
Old 19th February 2007
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Farrant View Post
Before you start quoting figures of -55dB, you should really tell us exactly how you arrived at this measurement. Do you have an audio voltmeter? At what frequency was this measured?

This is how it should be done;

Feed in 0dBu at 1 khz into 1 channel only panned hard left. Turn all other channels down or mute them. Calibrate that input so that the device is outputting 0dBu on the left main out with the Master full. Pan it hard right and check the right output is also 0dBu. Now, pan it back left and measure the residual on the right output. You can do this at 100Hz 1kHz and 10kHz to get an idea of how the crosstalk varies with frequency.

Usually the weakest link in consoles for L/R crosstalk is the pan pot circuit. A good console should show -70dBu at 1kHz, but -60dBu is not uncommon. This usually rises with frequency, and -50dBu at 10k is not uncommon.

Tim.
Fair Enough.

I fed a 1K tone from the Pro Tools signal generator out a 192 interface to the API 8200A (DB25 to DB25). I sent to only one input at a time with all of the other channels muted on the 8200A. The input channel on the API was wide open (that's unity but I actually tried it at other levels as well). The outputs of the API summing buss went to an external stereo meter. There is no master fader on the 8200A, only input attenuators on each channel. There are no meters on the 8200A either.

I panned hard left and fed signal through the API until I reached 0dBu on the left meter. The right meter actually read -50. When I panned to the right I got 0dBu on the right meter and -50 on the left.

Again, I want to point out that when I did the exact same test with a Mackie 1202 instead of the 8200A (using the line inputs), the opposing meter did not show any signal (it goes down to -70).

Also, API ran tests using a 2K tone and told me that they came up with -55dB crosstalk. I have this documented in an email that they sent me but I haven't posted it because I'm not trying to bash API. I just think that this specific product has an issue with the summing bus.

BTW, I calibrated the PT outputs before I did this test. They read 1.228 volts while sending out a -18 signal at 1K.

If anyone else has an 8200A, I would really like to hear what they find.
Old 22nd February 2007
  #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Farrant View Post
Before you start quoting figures of -55dB, you should really tell us exactly how you arrived at this measurement. Do you have an audio voltmeter? At what frequency was this measured?

This is how it should be done;

Feed in 0dBu at 1 khz into 1 channel only panned hard left. Turn all other channels down or mute them. Calibrate that input so that the device is outputting 0dBu on the left main out with the Master full. Pan it hard right and check the right output is also 0dBu. Now, pan it back left and measure the residual on the right output. You can do this at 100Hz 1kHz and 10kHz to get an idea of how the crosstalk varies with frequency.

Usually the weakest link in consoles for L/R crosstalk is the pan pot circuit. A good console should show -70dBu at 1kHz, but -60dBu is not uncommon. This usually rises with frequency, and -50dBu at 10k is not uncommon.

Tim.
Thank you Tim. For every dB you increase the input level, you will get the same in crosstalk. Channel to channel had better be good, but if you are using the left side for tracking and the right for headphones, you will get a nice mix in both...
Old 22nd February 2007
  #36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
My cheap little Soundcraft console also has balanced bussing. It has the left/right channels right next to each other on the ribbon connector, less than 1/16" apart. It measures -90 db crosstalk on the AP.

This is not that hard to do. Unless one relies on hearing only for testing, these problems can and should be worked out in design with suitable test gear.

Consider the real possibility that this design has problems that could of been caught with test gear before production. To have a customer call the manufacturer to task on this is not good in any way for the reputation of API, or the designer.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
I don't need you to tell me what is good for my reputation. Why don't you manufacture something other than your video mic pre and see the reality of this world. It's one thing to put fast op-amps in other people's designs and another to design, manufacture and market a successful product line.

Slew rate and bandwidth are not the only two things in this world. There is this thing called "tone". In all cases, tone has always won out over specs. If the Mackey and Soundcraft consoles are so good, why aren't more records made on them?

What hurts the reputation of "a designer" is when they make stupid comments about designs that are 100% successful and everyone loves. This is true about my old stuff and my new stuff.

Keep your subtle insults to yourself.
Old 22nd February 2007
  #37
You really need to quit while you are behind.

I don't give a sh*t about what you think is right or wrong. When you out another company or designer just to show your perceived greatness disguised as trying to help some one (seems to be your MO, you have done this before to me and others in the past) it only shows your lack of professionalism.

If what you are saying about this product is true, then you should have said the following:

That seems odd that it would have that much crosstalk. Let me know what the test was. Additionally, maybe there is something I could do to improve it for you (generating income). Maybe Paul Wolff (with 2 f's) could shed a little light on this also, since he designed it.

But instead, you decided to make yourself look great and everyone else look like a fool by saying:

-50~55 db, not so good. That's worse than a Tascam Portastudio. The worse I measued in high end stuff was -44 db in a Rupert Neve AMEK Mozart.

I suggest you call Paul Wolf and ask him to send you the Audio Precision stereo crosstalk plots, or the D-scope or whatever test rig they use there.

If he balks, that's not good. You know they have them. If you like, I'll run it into my AP if you pay the shipping of it here. Then we can post the results on the web, assuridly to cause some pain for Mr. Wolf but a boatload of info for the prospective buyer.

These guys charge way too much money to not fully test and publish the results of their products. Maybe they don't want you to see the results?

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades


Not a single word of advice, no suggestions as to a possible cause, nothing about how to fix it and nothing that anyone on this board could learn from. If you want to cause pain, you should be prepared for the wrath of what it will bring from myself and others. Unknown and unwarranted comments like the above only make you look more like an idiot, not less. You don't know what you are talking about with what went on or what didn't as far as tests go, so you are simply speaking out of your ass. By the way, you should ask for a spell checker for Christmas. Use it some time. It makes you look smarter.

Again, quit while you are behind.
Old 22nd February 2007
  #38
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToneLux View Post
You really need to quit while you are behind.

I don't give a sh*t about what you think is right or wrong. When you out another company or designer just to show your perceived greatness disguised as trying to help some one (seems to be your MO, you have done this before to me and others in the past) it only shows your lack of professionalism.

If what you are saying about this product is true, then you should have said the following:

That seems odd that it would have that much crosstalk. Let me know what the test was. Additionally, maybe there is something I could do to improve it for you (generating income). Maybe Paul Wolff (with 2 f's) could shed a little light on this also, since he designed it.

But instead, you decided to make yourself look great and everyone else look like a fool by saying:

-50~55 db, not so good. That's worse than a Tascam Portastudio. The worse I measued in high end stuff was -44 db in a Rupert Neve AMEK Mozart.

I suggest you call Paul Wolf and ask him to send you the Audio Precision stereo crosstalk plots, or the D-scope or whatever test rig they use there.

If he balks, that's not good. You know they have them. If you like, I'll run it into my AP if you pay the shipping of it here. Then we can post the results on the web, assuridly to cause some pain for Mr. Wolf but a boatload of info for the prospective buyer.

These guys charge way too much money to not fully test and publish the results of their products. Maybe they don't want you to see the results?

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades


Not a single word of advice, no suggestions as to a possible cause, nothing about how to fix it and nothing that anyone on this board could learn from. If you want to cause pain, you should be prepared for the wrath of what it will bring from myself and others. Unknown and unwarranted comments like the above only make you look more like an idiot, not less. You don't know what you are talking about with what went on or what didn't as far as tests go, so you are simply speaking out of your ass. By the way, you should ask for a spell checker for Christmas. Use it some time. It makes you look smarter.

Again, quit while you are behind.
LOL

thumbsup
Old 22nd February 2007
  #39
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mpapatonis's Avatar
 

I’m sorry that I ignited this firestorm. That was not my intention when I posted. I would like to add a few things here though.

Again, I’m not a tech or a designer but this is not a hard test to do and I am a professional engineer that uses high-end gear all the time. I know “what’s what.” I’m pretty sure that my findings are accurate especially coupled with the fact that API confirmed the numbers that I posted earlier. Also please note that no one from API has posted to rebut this issue.

Having said that, I want to reiterate that the unit sounds awesome. I love the tone; it just falls short when it comes to performance especially for some of the work that I do. I really noticed a problem when I was creating backing tracks for a vocal act that needs a keyboard reference on the left channel of a 2 track for their in-ear’s and drums on the right channel for FOH. I was hearing A LOT of bleed between the two in my studio monitors and through the sound system at their live shows. The mastering limiter made it worse of course. That’s when I started running some tests.

Remember that this unit was a “secondary” design that came from the 8200. Something could have happened during the reverse engineering. I’m guessing at this. Perhaps Paul could fill in the details.

I've asked the dealer that I bought the unit from to find out whether an 8200 with a 7800 master has the same issue. If it doesn’t, I would consider buying it to replace the 8200A. The difference in cost is about $1800 but I would pay it if I could be sure. Since I have no further information on this, I guess that I’m going to try out the Neve 8816.
Old 22nd February 2007
  #40
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpapatonis View Post
Since I have no further information on this, I guess that I’m going to try out the Neve 8816.
Why not the Tonelux? Great stuff...
Old 22nd February 2007
  #41
There are many reasons why things don't work. I try as much as I can to help and teach others what I know. I find value in this for many reasons, such as the fact that people like myself won't be around forever and if you really love the industry, you want others to learn and then take it to the next level. You never know, some idea that someone learned from me might give them a different idea and then when I learn of it, I get a different idea, and so on. There have been a lot of things that I have come up with first, or something that someone else came up with but didn't present it in the right light to be useful. Others may take the idea or modify it into something even more useful. This all helps to make the industry create better recordings of the arts which in turn helps me because I get to listen to better sounding music.

I, of course can be abrasive and an asshole, but if you look backwards on any of my posts, it's usually when some idiot tries to belittle or discredit someone in some fashion or another. When that happens, I can become one of the nastiest there is because I think people that do that to others on forums should be booted off because all it does is ruin it for the people that want to learn.

People get used to the specs of digital, which has theoretically, no crosstalk or noise floor to speak of. I have built no less than 30-40 consoles of various sizes in the past, and as shocking as it may seem, the noise floors were not a whole lot better than -70 and the cross talk in the panners wasn't much better.

As Tim said, these are the weakest points of consoles. Placing drums in one channel and piano in the other will cross talk, plus don't forget the make up gain in the mastering compressor. If this is 10 dB, your crosstalk just went up by 10dB. Peak oriented sounds always crosstalk more because they have peaks that you can't see and HF content that is even worse.
Old 22nd February 2007
  #42
Gear Nut
 
mpapatonis's Avatar
 

Paul,

Thanks for the information. As I mentioned before and I think that you know, my intention with the post was not to slam your abilities. I understand that crosstalk is inevitable. I'd be fine with -70. It's -50 (or -55 as API emailed me) that I'm having an issue with.

I don't think that I would hear much, if any, of the bleed in the example that I gave if it were -70. Again, this may be an issue with the 8200A only. It does have a lot of stuff packed in a single rack space.

When I went from mixing ITB at my studio to mixing through the 8200A, I immediately noticed a tighter low end, forward mids, and a smoother top end. I also noticed a more three dimensional image. However, the stereo field didn't seem wider at all. This may or may not be because of the crosstalk. When I mix on desks at other studios (Trident's, SSL's, etc.), it normally seems wider to me than ITB.

I still love the sound of the unit.
Old 22nd February 2007
  #43
Dan
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So, do you suppose it's the pan pots causing the crosstalk? Would it be possible to swap those out?



First one to help can piss further!
Old 23rd February 2007
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan View Post
So, do you suppose it's the pan pots causing the crosstalk? Would it be possible to swap those out?



First one to help can piss further!
If it were just the pan pots, I would have them changed in a heartbeat and be done with this. According to API, it would virtually take a redesign to get this fixed.
Old 23rd February 2007
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpapatonis View Post
According to API, it would virtually take a redesign to get this fixed.
Hello API?
There's some work for you! Keep the tone and bring the crosstalk to a Mackie level!

I thought about purchasing a 8200A for mixing but also for tracking (padding the 3124+ outputs). After reading this, I'm more and more thinking about a ADT Toolmix instead!
Old 20th June 2007
  #46
Gear Maniac
 

I was just about to buy one of these before I found this thread - now it's a Dangerous Mixer for me.

Also, this doesn't seem to be an issue with my 3124+mb
Old 20th June 2007
  #47
Quote:
Originally Posted by twotracker View Post
I was just about to buy one of these before I found this thread - now it's a Dangerous Mixer for me.

Also, this doesn't seem to be an issue with my 3124+mb
An API and a Dangerous box are two completely different animals, not even in the same design direction. If you are basing your purchasing decision on this thread that is a crazy a$$ thing to do.

Here is an idea, how about getting the unit in your room and see if you like it?

If you don't then look into the Tonelux before the Dangerous box because the Tonelux is in the same design direction as the API.... Paul Wolf after all.
Old 20th June 2007
  #48
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new View Post
An API and a Dangerous box are two completely different animals, not even in the same design direction. If you are basing your purchasing decision on this thread that is a crazy a$$ thing to do.

Here is an idea, how about getting the unit in your room and see if you like it?

If you don't then look into the Tonelux before the Dangerous box because the Tonelux is in the same design direction as the API.... Paul Wolf after all.
Yep, it's crazy - sorry API
Old 20th June 2007
  #49
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Quote:
If you are basing your purchasing decision on this thread that is a crazy a$$ thing to do.
At -50dB crosstalk, a pricetag of $2500, and not an API rep in sight to defend the product, I'd say hell yeah.
Old 20th June 2007
  #50
I thought this was finally dead.

I would have imagined that after this initial post, someone would have ponied up with more "bad" experiences, and except for JW conspiricy theory, it looks like no one has. Like I said before, many records have been done on all three now, and no one seems to give a **** about any of the "issues". It is very simple. Tonelux sounds like Tonelux, API sounds like API, and Dangerious sounds like Dangerious. Base it on tone and what you are looking to add to your overall mix. If you do it on the API and a customer calls and wants his money back for a recording because he could hear a little high hat leaking into one side at -50, then I guess you are busted. Something tells me that the customer will be real happy unless the song sucks, the all three can only make the crap sound as good as possible, so it would be great sounding crap. Then again, that might be just me.

One additional thing to remember. The Mackie and Soundcraft consoles use ICs, so they can do great things with balanced everything. They can buffer each stage, they can even buffer the buffers. When a company tries to compete with real pro stuff, they usually go for low noise, low distortion and low cost. That is because it is very difficult to design with a good tone, so clean becomes the main spec.

When using only one or two op-amps in a module, you gain the designer's insight on minimalization and conservation with amps, but you do sometimes get a little more noise and some crosstalk issues. If there were some buffers after each side of the panners, you would see the result with little cut-off bleed through. You would also see it starts to sound like crap. The tone of a properly designed system will always shock you, so every thing has it's trade-offs.

Time to put this to bed.
Old 20th June 2007
  #51
Quote:
Originally Posted by twotracker View Post
Yep, it's crazy - sorry API
Quote:
Originally Posted by camus View Post
At -50dB crosstalk, a pricetag of $2500, and not an API rep in sight to defend the product, I'd say hell yeah.
That is ridiculous. Go read what Paul wrote above.. I will wait here....




Done reading? Good.... now tell me, what "specs" better a Mackie or a Neve preamp? I guarantee you the Mackie will look better on paper any day of the week but do you listen to music with your eyes? If you do then you are in the wrong business.

Ever see the specs on a Marshal Plexi or a Fender Vibroking? They look hideous on paper but side by side with you guitar plugged into each and then into a perfectly clean B&K monoblock tell me which you prefer the sound of... Even when you set the Marshal or Fender up to be as clean as they can get they still have bad specs but sound much better for the application than something that specs way way better.

In many cases good gear sounds good exactly because it specs out poorly. dfegad on specs, use your ears.
Old 20th June 2007
  #52
$1000 bet that what ever he buys, he won't ever have a hit record anyway, so it doesn't matter. I learned 40 years ago by a guy that recorded with a couple of EV mics and an old Ampex reel to reel, when I asked him why he didn't use 'more' equipment, he said "I like the way this sounds". Wow. Such insight.

So many great recordings were done on what some consider "crap". Remember Ace of Bass? They recorded that record on a 16 track Tascam reel to reel. No hiss there.

Word of advice, now that I am the old one:

Pull your head out of your ass. When you do, you will be able to see many more things.

A hit single has the following 10 things in it:

1 the song
2 the song
3 the song
4 the song
5 the song
6 the song
7 the song
8 a good producer, engineer and mixer and musicians,
9 distribution,
10 some equipment to record it on.
Old 20th June 2007
  #53
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Quote:
I really like the sound of the unit but there are some major crosstalk issues. I really started to notice it when I was doing some backing tracks for a client. There are drums on one channel of the stereo mix and a piano reference for the in-ears on the other channel. I am getting a ton of crosstalk between the left and right of the stereo outs and the mastering limiter just makes the problem more pronounced.

After some experimenting, I discovered that the crosstalk is about -50 to -55 dB. Even if I mute every channel but one on the 8200A, it still does it.
This was the original poster's issue. He bought the product for a practical purpose. It failed him in this particular aspect of operation. Enough so that he wanted to return the unit. There is nothing on this thread I have read that even begins to address his initial concerns. Can't we have a reasonable explanation at least?
Old 20th June 2007
  #54
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Quote:
$1000 bet that what ever he buys, he won't ever have a hit record anyway, so it doesn't matter.
95% of the people working in audio will never have a hit record. They make a living providing a professional service. They need equipment that satisfies these requirements. Why is that so hard to understand?

And for the record that is just an incredibly arrogant thing to say about someone that spent two and a half grand on a product that doesn't work right.
Old 20th June 2007
  #55
Gear Maniac
 

Hey, sorry fellas - I passed up the 8200a based on this thread - that's why I read this forum.

Dangerous seems to fit what I need - if it sucks I'll send it back.

But I'll leave the 8200a for you professionals and hitmakers.
Old 20th June 2007
  #56
Quote:
Originally Posted by camus View Post
This was the original poster's issue. He bought the product for a practical purpose. It failed him in this particular aspect of operation. Enough so that he wanted to return the unit. There is nothing on this thread I have read that even begins to address his initial concerns. Can't we have a reasonable explanation at least?
That is actually a very fair statement and valid for sure.



I would say you are on to something... but I would also say that in the end there could be many factors here. Maybe there was a production run problem with a few units? Maybe there was a problem with that specific unit? Maybe, and no offence intended to the original poster, there was a mistake in the usage of the equipment?

I don't know the answers to any of these questions and really no one here does, it is all speculation.

Also to assume because a rep from API didn't show up here to defend the product it must be crap is going pretty far isn't it? API reps can't just sit around waiting for a post about an API product on every forum out there can they? If they did they would spend all their time reading Zaza's posts alone...

LOL

Really, the only point I am making is that we don't know what is up here and to dismiss a product from a well respected company based on one thread at one Internet forum seems like jumping the gun a little.
Old 20th June 2007
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new View Post
... If they did they would spend all their time reading Zaza's posts alone...
I'm crying from laughing so hard. thumbsup

I don't know why but I get a kick out of all the ZAZA bashing around here! Seems like he's got a good sense of humor. Sorry ZaZa. heh
Old 20th June 2007
  #58
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new View Post
That is actually a very fair statement and valid for sure.



I would say you are on to something... but I would also say that in the end there could be many factors here. Maybe there was a production run problem with a few units? Maybe there was a problem with that specific unit? Maybe, and no offence intended to the original poster, there was a mistake in the usage of the equipment?

I don't know the answers to any of these questions and really no one here does, it is all speculation.

Also to assume because a rep from API didn't show up here to defend the product it must be crap is going pretty far isn't it? API reps can't just sit around waiting for a post about an API product on every forum out there can they? If they did they would spend all their time reading Zaza's posts alone...

LOL

Really, the only point I am making is that we don't know what is up here and to dismiss a product from a well respected company based on one thread at one Internet forum seems like jumping the gun a little.

But he said he had a response from API confirming his results - no other 8200a owners offer any differing findings - 2 are selling their mixers on the forum (and are probably not happy to see this thread again.)
API has a great sound - if I want it I'll use the 3124mb+
Old 20th June 2007
  #59
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Quote:
I would say you are on to something... but I would also say that in the end there could be many factors here. Maybe there was a production run problem with a few units? Maybe there was a problem with that specific unit? Maybe, and no offence intended to the original poster, there was a mistake in the usage of the equipment?
That was my intial thought as well. But again, the original poster said API emailed him saying -55dB was about right, it was part of the design, and there was nothing they could do about it.

I'd expect that kind of response from Behringer or something, but API? Jesus.
Old 20th June 2007
  #60
Quote:
Originally Posted by camus View Post
This was the original poster's issue. He bought the product for a practical purpose. It failed him in this particular aspect of operation. Enough so that he wanted to return the unit. There is nothing on this thread I have read that even begins to address his initial concerns. Can't we have a reasonable explanation at least?
There is no "cure" for the initial concerns. The question was presented to him about operating levels, that were never really answered. They emailed him with the correct response. It is the way it is and there is nothing that can be done about it without a redesign. To my knowledge, there doesn't seem to be many with this complaint. If there were, I'm sure they would redesign it quickly.

I explained 10 different ways why it does what it does. If you haven't "read" that then you are looking for some other kind of answer. It was a more than reasonable answer. If anyone wants a solution, there isn't one other than providing the right operating level going in, which is +4 dBu. Additionally, comparing it to a cheap product is not a bar, either. The answer is this, to make it simple and clear:

There is no solution to that perceived problem. The design of most high end name brand products don't have the same specs as the cheap stuff for specific reasons. I explained why it does what it does so I won't repeat myself. Additionally, when you put piano in one side and drums in the other, SSL, Neve, API, Tonelux, Etc will have some bleed to different degrees. It is NOT crosstalk. It is called CUTOFF, where the panner isn't completely cutting the signal off. This frequently happens when you minimalize the number of amplifiers in a unit. The level pot has to be 1/10 the value of the panners so the panner doesn't load the level pot. A cheap console will put a buffer between them. If the panners are 20K, the level control must be much lower for the thing to work. It's just the way it is. All those hits over the years with panner cut-off problems.

As far as the hit makers comment, my point was that so much time is spent doing anal exams of this equipment that when the final report is out, the band is dead, the songs are gone and the studio is out of business. That's the head-in-ass relationship.

Also, the comment relates to any business that uses the equipment. Each industry has it's own version of what a HIT is. I would hope that you could see past that. A hit ad, a hit TV intro, even the ESPN 7 second lead-ins are hits.

The Dangerous is a fine box. It is designed to NOT color the mix. That is what it does and it does it very well. They are a great company. If you want to ad color to your mix, that isn't the box for you.
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