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AES / TDIF / ADAT
Old 31st January 2007
  #1
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Cheech's Avatar
 

AES / TDIF / ADAT

I know all of this has been discussed, and I searched, but did not find what I was looking for.

Anyway, I am looking to interface my Radar (which has NO digital cards right now) with my Mac (Logic Pro), and I am trying to figure which would be the best route to take, as far as stability, and sound quality are concerned AES, TDIF, or ADAT?

Thanks for your suggestions!
Old 31st January 2007
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Zwinter's Avatar
 

Some additional information about your computer will be helpful. What mac do you have? Does it have PCI, PCIx, PCIe slots? The reason that we need to know this is because you need a card that will interface your computer to the RADAR's digital outputs.
Old 31st January 2007
  #3
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Cheech's Avatar
 

Yeah I guess I should have included that. Well, right now I am working on a G4 933, but will soon be upgrading to the Mac Pro G5.

Also if you could recomend a good card for the Mac to interface with. I saw that RME has a new AES coming out. I want a good card, I am not sure if there is anything much better than the RME?.?.?.?


Thanks Zach!
Old 31st January 2007
  #4
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Zwinter's Avatar
 

Well, I would upgrade your computer and then get the hardware, figuring you will ensure you don't have to buy something twice. The new Mac's have PCIe slots and, unfortunately, there aren't a lot of choices for digital I/O cards. The RME should work for you. I know Lynx is coming out with a PCIe version of their AES16 card, but it won't be shipping for months and something tells me you don't want to wait that long. I prefer Lynx cards because I have had less problems and their support rocks. I can't say that about RME. Anyways, if you don't want to wait for the Lynx then get the RME.

This means you need the AES digital cards for the RADAR. What kind of RADAR do you have?
Old 31st January 2007
  #5
500 series nutjob
 
pan60's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwinter View Post
I can't say that about RME.
because you do not sell it?
i have found RME, ( here in the USA at least ) to offer excellent service.
i can't say the same for lynx.
Old 31st January 2007
  #6
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Zwinter's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pan60 View Post
because you do not sell it?
i have found RME, ( here in the USA at least ) to offer excellent service.
i can't say the same for lynx.
We do carry RME, but we don't carry their full line. RME is not the only manufacturer that we do this with. We only carry product that we believe in. For products that we don't believe in, we don't carry them. It's pretty simple. With RME we feel that they do make some really cool products. Those products are listed on Mercenary's web site. Unfortunately, other products don't measure up to our high standards and that's why we don't carry them. I have personally used both RME and Lynx cards, using them in the same computer in Mercenary's recording studio, and feel Lync has a superior product.
Old 31st January 2007
  #7
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Cheech's Avatar
 

I have the Radar 24.......I am not sure if that best describes which Radar I have, but thats the only name it has.

So should I assume that you would go with AES over TDIF, or ADAT?

Thanks Zack!
Old 31st January 2007
  #8
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bit mangler's Avatar
 

I am assuming you have the Radar 24.

with ADAT card : Inexpensive interface solutions available starting from the m-audio lightbridge.
cons : clock stability in comparison to AES/EBU

with AES/EBU card

-advantage of being able to do long runs of AES/EBU

cons:
only 2 AES/EBU cards exist in the market currently.I'd suggest going the RME route because you get directmonitoring of all channels.Lynx doesn't do that
no possiblilty of using a laptop ,since there are no AES/EBU laptop interfaces
1 card supports 16 channels and so you'll have to get 2 cards if you want to use all 24 channels simultaneously
I currently have Radar 24 with AES/EBU and have a similar dillema because I have a laptop only.
When my fortunes improve I am planning on a DAW with 2 RME PCIe cards or going the MADI route with RME or SSl MADI hardware.but right now that is a distant dream
Old 1st February 2007
  #9
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Cheech's Avatar
 

Yes I am using the Radar 24.

1. I am not sure I understand what the ability to do long runs of AES/EBU means?

I would appreciate clock stability. 16 Channels would be perfect, because I would mainly be using it to sum to the Dangerous 2 Bus out of Logic. I am not too concerned with Laptop, I would just go ahead and get the apogee wit the Symphony mobile if I wanted a portable rig.


2. I am sure I could talk to N.J. over at IZ about this, but maybe one of you could help me out. ..... If I install the AES/EBU card on my Radar 24, will the Radar then give me the option of selecting the AES as the digital outputs, or do I have to upgrade the software on the Radar?
Reason I ask, is because right now the only Digital outputs I have access to are the SPDF.

Thanks
Chad
Old 1st February 2007
  #10
Gear Nut
 
N.J.'s Avatar
 

AES thumbsup

1. You could probably go a few hundred meters with AES.

2. RADAR always outputs out of all formats. (not software dependent)
Old 1st February 2007
  #11
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tamasdragon's Avatar
 

Go with the rme route. Compared to lynx, it's a better solution imho.

Tamas Dragon
Old 1st February 2007
  #12
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Cheech's Avatar
 

Thanks N.J. and everyone esle for the replies.

So what advantages would I have with AES vs TDIF?
Old 1st February 2007
  #13
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Søren Bendixen's Avatar
I saw that RME has a new AES coming out.
Where did you see that?!
I just waiting for an AES PCIe card for my Mac Pro
soebx
Old 2nd February 2007
  #14
Gear Nut
 
N.J.'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheech View Post
So what advantages would I have with AES vs TDIF?
-Support for high sample rate 'single wire' operation
-Less complicated (ie no framing to worry about)
-Generally viewed as a more stable and 'pro' format
Old 2nd February 2007
  #15
Gear Addict
 
Cheech's Avatar
 

The New RME AES card
go here >> http://www.rme-audio.com/english/madi/hdspaes32.htm



Thanks N.J. ! I'll be sacraficing a few channels of conversion, but I dont think Im gonna need them, AES is a whole heck of a lot more expensive, on both ends (Radar card, and the Mac card) , but I guess you gotta do what you gotta do.

Thanks so much for ya'lls help!!!!!!!
Old 2nd February 2007
  #16
Gear Maniac
 
Søren Bendixen's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheech View Post
Yeah I guess I should have included that. Well, right now I am working on a G4 933, but will soon be upgrading to the Mac Pro G5.

Also if you could recomend a good card for the Mac to interface with. I saw that RME has a new AES coming out. I want a good card, I am not sure if there is anything much better than the RME?.?.?.?


Thanks Zach!
As long as you know it´s an AES PCI card not an PCIe card

http://www.rme-audio.com/english/mac/index.htm
Old 2nd February 2007
  #17
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Cheech's Avatar
 

Woops! I guess I just skipped right over that.........

Whats the difference between PCI and PCIe?

and how will that affect me on the new Mac Pro?

Sorry for sounding so friggen dumb!

I greatly appreciate all the help!
Old 2nd February 2007
  #18
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Zwinter's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soebx View Post
As long as you know it´s an AES PCI card not an PCIe card

http://www.rme-audio.com/english/mac/index.htm
Oops I didn't look that close either, definitely a mistake on my part. I had already brought up the fact that this person needed a PCIe card, so I assumed he would only recommend a PCIe solution. That for pointing that out.

As far as the differences between the PCI formats I have written a tutorial on them for the Mercenary site. Here's the link, http://www.mercenary.com/apogeesymphony.html. I am not recommending the Symphony system in this case, but it's a great overview.

I will look around the internet for ADAT or AES PCIe cards. I will let you know what I find.
Old 2nd February 2007
  #19
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Cheech's Avatar
 

Thanks Zach!
Old 5th February 2007
  #20
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Cheech's Avatar
 

Dang it looks like the Symphony and Apogee DA 16 is my only option here.
Is there anything else?
Old 6th February 2007
  #21
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Mike O's Avatar
 

It has been implied above by NJ and others, but just to make sure Cheech understoods: If you want/need more than 12 channels of 96k at the same time you need AES.
Old 6th February 2007
  #22
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Cheech's Avatar
 

Hey mike thanks.... I think i am gonna stick with 48K though for the time being.
Old 6th February 2007
  #23
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Zwinter's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheech View Post
Dang it looks like the Symphony and Apogee DA 16 is my only option here.
Is there anything else?
Yes, the Symphony system is cool, but I don't think it would the best fit for you. I only referenced that page so you can understand the differences between the different PCI formats.

Also, I have been looking around for any PCIe card that had 24 channels of AES or ADAT I/O. Unfortunately, I haven't come across anything yet. So far the best fit was a Firewire box that has 16 channels of ADAT I/O. I am still looking and let you know when I find something.
Old 7th February 2007
  #24
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Cheech's Avatar
 

Thanks Zach!!!! I greatly appreciate your Help.
Ya know TDIF is an option also. I dont know if you guys have something against TDIF or not.?.?.
Old 7th February 2007
  #25
Gear Maniac
 
Søren Bendixen's Avatar
according to local dealers and Namm news Lynx is releasing a AES PCIe card mid - year and RME is releasing an AES PCIe card this spring, around april my local dealer suggested...(not confirmed!)
soebx
Old 10th February 2007
  #26
Gear Addict
 
Cheech's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soebx View Post
according to local dealers and Namm news Lynx is releasing a AES PCIe card mid - year and RME is releasing an AES PCIe card this spring, around april my local dealer suggested...(not confirmed!)
soebx

Thats interesting...... I sure hope something pops up. I will soon be getting to the place where I need to make a move. The new Mac Pro is for sure the way I am going. Its got some serious power, and will be great for Logic Pro.

Thanks for all the help fellas.

Chad
Old 10th February 2007
  #27
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midnightsun's Avatar
 

Cheech:

I would caution against getting new, expensive equipment (Mac Pro) with the presumption that you can get the necessary interface. REASON-- if you spend the money on the Mac now by the time the interface you need hits the street your new computer will be the "older model."

I started my digital adventures with a RADAR II (48K max but still a GREAT MACHINE AND SOUND). I later went for a DAW Mac G5 Quad. I agonized over interfaces-- failed in my attempts to find an AES interface that was compatible with PCIe. Therefore, I settled for TDIF-- Motu 2408 with its PCIe card. It actually worked perfectly for 24 I/O up to 48K/24bit.

First of all, I am presuming that you are wanting to just pass through the RADAR for the converters but do your actual tracking to the DAW/Logic. If this isn't the case can't you just move your RADAR session hard drive over to your DAW for editing?

Possible solution-- Get a PCI AES card for your G4 and AES cards for your RADAR. This depends on how much horse power you need from your DAW. Are you mixing in the Logic software, digital console, analog console? When the the PCIe cards are reliable and available then consider making your move to the Mac Pro. Your only loss will be the PCI AES cards. But the G4 could then be your back up.

Another possible solution-- If you need to run Logic Pro at top speed now get a Mac Pro and settle to run at 48K via the Motu 2408 via TDIF-- The down side is that when the PCIe AES interface is available you will lose the investment of the TDIF cards and cables.

Third option-- Get a receiver for your DAW that will accept your RADAR session hard drive.

One thing for certain is that you own a great machine-- RADAR.

I also have Symphony with 16ADX & 16DAX. Each 16 can also handle either 8 AES at highest sample rate or 16 and lower sample rate. I only have experience running AES in via DSub- to 8 AES breakouts. It works but would be a very convoluted way to connect a RADAR to a DAW with PCIe above 48K.
Old 12th February 2007
  #28
Gear Addict
 
Cheech's Avatar
 

Midnight:

I use Radar for tracking, then FTP the files over to my MAC for mixing in Logic Pro.
Currently I have to deal with a lot of work arounds for a session with a lot of tracks.
I want to take advantage of the new Mac Pro's power. I also want to use the converters of the RADAR so I can sum to the Dangerous 2 Bus. That is the main need for interfacing between the mac and Radar. Its the summing. I have no problem tracking sessions to Radar, and if it would sound the same, I would use the RADAR converters to track straight to Logic, but that is not my main concern right now.

So I guess I can hold out on the summing, but a new interface where I can clock Logic to the Radar would be a big step forward. Right now I am using my old Digi 001 as my logic interface, and something is wrong with the spdf connection so I cant clock my 001 to the Radar.

Nothing new in life though. Its always give and take.
Old 12th February 2007
  #29
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I also like to work on Logic and dig the RADAR converters. The FTP transfer would personally push my patience, especially when it comes to over dubs and the necessary work arounds. If you are able to wait, AES for the PCIe would be definitive or MADI may also prove to be a solution. I think that iZ is coming out with MADI and hopefully PCIe will be there soon.

What sample rate are you presently working at? Regarding clocking-- I used my RADAR as the master and ran a BNC cable to the MOTU 2408 and it worked fine.
Old 19th February 2007
  #30
Gear Addict
 
Cheech's Avatar
 

I guess I will wait.

I am currently clocking at 48k. Thats the highest sample rate available on my Radar.
I have no problems with it. I think it sounds great. I really need to get set up so I can lock up to the radar as my master clock. I just hate to spend money on a new interface, then later on get the PCIe card and them my interface is useless. Maybe I can find something decent used just to get by.?.?
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