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Apogee/Symphony Performance Compared to Protools HD
Old 6th February 2007
  #121
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well said, nativeaudio.
Old 6th February 2007
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashermusic View Post
If you can hear siginificant latency on a singer singing through a software reveb on a Mac Pro/Symphony rig in Logic Pro i.e., you have far better ears than me.
Hi Jay, let me add that since you can set up a reverb send (better solution than a reverb plugin on the recording track) on both the systems we are discussing, this is a non-issue anyway...
Old 6th February 2007
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
But adding 'those plugins' does not add latency - a statement which is true for most plug-ins, and equally many plug-ins in the native world as in the TDM world. Nikki is right, entering the mode you need to be in for plugins to be available adds latency (on a native rig), but if Max is right, you'll get only 3ms @ 44.1,while a TDM rig has 2.38 ms @ 44.1. Sound takes 2 ms just to travel from your speaker to your ear, if you sit 2 feet away from your speakers, so 0.6 or even 1.2 ms doesn't make much of a difference. On a TDM rig, you can't leave that 'Software Monitoring' mode, meaning that you can never disable 'plugin mode' entirely, again meaning that you can never get below 2.38 ms @ 44.1kHz.
Just wanted to add that if one were to use Apogee AD16x/DA16x combo with PT HD, they would (should?) be getting below 2ms of latency/delay, Analogue - to - analogue. Also, "software monitoring mode" within a TDM system is the equivalent of hardwired bussing within a stand-alone digital mixer; yes, software controls the routing, but the routing itself is, essentially, hardwired. IMO, this is nanoseconds, although it could be on the higher side, closing in on the 1 sample area. Regardless, I would love to see Apogee provide a point-to-point comparison of Apogee fronted Symphony vs. Apogee fronted PT HD. As is, it is impressive, to say the least. Very impressive.

Nativeaudio, you really hit the nail on the head, and it is what I have been saying all along for years. When it comes right down to it, it is the workflow. Does the "headspace" you put yourself in when working with your DAW feel comfortable? Or are you fighting it tooth and nail? Are you constantly apologizing to the people recording? PARIS worked for me. I was truly hoping it would grow and mature into this wonderful entity. Crying shame it never had a chance. PT HD just does it for me, and I am hoping the MIDI side will mature just enough to make it a little nicer. I WISH I could love Logic. Or DP5. Or Cubase/Nuendo. Smaplitude/Sequoia. Something else. And knowing how unhappy I would be if someone forced me to use one fo those other apps as they are today instead of allowing me to use what I am comfy on is why I would NEVER tell ANYONE else that "this app" or "that app" is best. Symphony is a pretty bright sign that native vs "closed" enviornments comes down to comfort, and possibly $$$

So Max- any way we could get numbers for the T HD rig with AD16x and DA16x I/O's? Would love to see those for 44.1k/48k amd 96k myself.
Old 7th February 2007
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikki-k View Post
Does the "headspace" you put yourself in when working with your DAW feel comfortable? Or are you fighting it tooth and nail? Are you constantly apologizing to the people recording?
Well, I use Logic, and if we ignore for a second that there are features offered by the competition that Logic currently has no equivalent to, the answer to that first question is yes. The only thing I have apologized to clients is that automation aren't always copied when copying regions - this has improved, but isn't perfect yet.

It's hard to balance a deep set of features with a user interface that is transparent. The simpler user interface, the more 'intuitive' it appears. In a way I felt more comfortable using old Mastertracks Pro (anyone old enough to remember it?) than with anything else I've used, it was an extremely easy-to-use MIDI sequencer, and/but it was simple because it couldn't do all the stuff eg. Logic can.

I think we'll see a lot more editing functions in Logic's Arrange window in the future, improving the workflow, and probably Logic will be rebuilt at some point, and be 100% 'audio-centered', like Pro Tools. I'm also excited about CAF, Apple's new audio format.

I think we prefer the user interface we have spent most time with, and I've seen lots of examples of Logic or PT users claiming that ******* can de done only in the application they use, or that it's easier to do it there... more often than not, such opinions are based on lack of knowledge about other apps: what they can do and how they do it.

I guess all programmers can learn a lot by studying rivaling programs/user interface, and I guess the programmers that are the best listeners will end up with the most user friendly programs. So, all in all, I'm happy with Logic: these programmers have a long history of being good listeners. I'm also convinced that a m a j o r update/successor will be announced within max a year, addressing stuff like elastic audio, Beat Detective etc. And like every other Logic user, I hope it will happen today.

OSX and Logic developers work under the same roof, and a Logic programmer is probably more capable of influencing OSX / having changes made to the OS in order to achieve what he wants in Logic, then eg. Digideisgn or MoTu developers are. We haven't seen lots of Logic updates lately, but I take that as a good sign. I'm sure they're not scuba diving in Hawaii, but working on an update that just needs a little more time than a normal update.
Old 7th February 2007
  #125
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This has to be the best thread I've ever started. I got way more than I bargained for, in such a good way.
Old 7th February 2007
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H-Rezz View Post
Hi Tony,

Don't forget in this calculation that a Mac Pro 2.6 is not a HD3 but more like a HD8 system , if you go off by that as your starting figure the P.Tools system will cost you more like 25-30k, as apposed to roughly 8k for the Logic/Symphony combo .....

A far as support , you have the Apogee side of things , support is excellent , Logic/Apple have not the great support they had prior to Logic being bought out but the fact they are made by the same company ensures they play well together and problems are at a minimum from the get go.....

Maybe someone with the actual rig being discussed can chime in as to how it all integrates and the stability of it, i'm sure quite a few people making upgrades would be interested ......

Cheers
I´m not sure if you can compare Native and TDM 1:1 . It´s maybe not only the number of plugs you can dial in.
Old 7th February 2007
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huarez View Post
I´m not sure if you can compare Native and TDM 1:1 . It´s maybe not only the number of plugs you can dial in.
It's about a lot of other things as well. But when we're talking about plug-in counts, there is one thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread, and which is a major difference between native systems and TDM-systems: dynamic DSP allocation. If a test shows that a rig can run, say 200 plugins, this means 200 plugins in real life as well - if you're on a TDM rig. Even if a plugin is not in use in a given part of a song, it still occupies the same DSP-power as it would have done if it were actually doing something. On a native rig, if you have a chorus using lots of DSP-power, this power is 'released' for other use as soon as nothing is happening on these tracks. This means that if a static tests shows that you'll get 200 plugins on a given native rig, you'll probably get something like 300 in a real life test, because very few songs consist of tracks that are active from the beginning to the end.
Old 8th February 2007
  #128
Gear Nut
 

I think right about now someone should post a list of the ultimate highend plugins that are available in Pro Tools HD that are not available in Logic Pro, Digital Performer, or Cubase/Nuendo. Sound Blender, Drawmer, & GML to my knowledge are not VST, or Audio Units yet. This type of plugin availability is part of what would keep native based systems from being the ultimate highend. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Threshold.stike
Old 8th February 2007
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
I think right about now someone should post a list of the ultimate highend plugins that are available in Pro Tools HD that are not available in Logic Pro, Digital Performer, or Cubase/Nuendo. 'Sound Blender', Drawmer, & GML to my knowledge are not VST, or Audio Units yet. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Threshold.stike
oxford GML eq... i think.....
Old 8th February 2007
  #130
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H-Rezz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by huarez View Post
I´m not sure if you can compare Native and TDM 1:1 . It´s maybe not only the number of plugs you can dial in.
Well tell us what the other things are ?

1)We covered great sounding apogee convertors
2)Latency comparable to P.Tools
3)Bigger plug-in count

And i agree you cann't compare it 1:1 because i'd have to buy 7 proccessor cards to one Mac Pro , not to mention slot alocation on the DSP chips themselves ....
Old 8th February 2007
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
I think right about now someone should post a list of the ultimate highend plugins that are available in Pro Tools HD that are not available in Logic Pro, Digital Performer, or Cubase/Nuendo. Sound Blender, Drawmer, & GML to my knowledge are not VST, or Audio Units yet. This type of plugin availability is part of what would keep native based systems from being the ultimate highend. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Threshold.stike
There are plenty of A grade plugs for native at half the price , and the ones you've mentioned will also be released sooner rather than later , might just have to do without the bomb factory stuff

Plug-ins or the 'lack' thereof is definately not the reason why someone would pay more for a HD rig and then incur double the price for plugs to boot ....
Old 8th February 2007
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H-Rezz View Post

2)Has G4, uprades to Mac Pro/Symphony/Rosetta800 for 7k....

Benefits;Has a system comparable to HD8 , enough grunt to sink a ships worth of Plugs/Synths/Libraries, is up to date with latest upgrades as it is not a proprietary hardware system , and in theory has no latency to speak of with great sounding convertors .... pays native prices for plugs .

This of course is my opinion so feel free to disagree , but i am conveying the stats of both systems and trying to be impartial .

Cheers
Waitaminutehere! HD 8? With a Mac Pro and Logic?

I have a G5 with Logic Pro and it gets nowhere close to my HD system so that's why I have both.

Of course I wish that it could so I could get rid of my PT HD system and have it all in one computer (arranging/recording/mixing) but it just doesn't cut it for now.

With the native system, I can't have 100 tracks running (full arrangement with stacked harmonies and orchestra) and track vocals at the same time without going into a 'math tech' mode trying to work out latency figures and compensate here and there and... @[email protected]#@%$#%@$ Just too much stress with the stress I already have working with the deadlines I've got.

So can someone enlighten me as to what I've missed or am doing wrong here? If so, I can sell off my HD system.

I'm serious. heh
Old 8th February 2007
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The MPCist View Post
So can someone enlighten me as to what I've missed
Missed? The power of a quad core Mac Pro (4*3 gHz)...

Re. plugin availability, it seems that most (but not all) important plugins that were TDM only have been ported over, like Waves, DUY etc, but there are a few left. Money talks, as usual, and since the native market is much bigger than the TDM market, and covers several DAW platforms, most likely, we'll see more plugins not making it to the TDM platform than the other way round in the future. There son technical reasons that a TDM plugin can't be ported over to the native world (there are technical reasons that some plug-ins may be difficult to make TDM versions of, like slow chips, very little on-board memory). The only TDM plug-in I really miss is SoundBlender, and on SoundToys' site, it still says that SB is "TDM Only (for now)".

Most, but not all important/high-end native plugins (AltiVerb, Native Instruments stuff like Reaktor etc.) have also been ported over to the Digidesign platform (TDM, or RTAS eg. when TDM isn't technically possible). In short, as longs as there's cash to be generated from porting code, I can't see why a plugin manufacturer wouldn't want to release version of their plug-ins for other platforms - unless, of course, someone would pay them for not doing it.
Old 8th February 2007
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The MPCist View Post
Waitaminutehere! HD 8? With a Mac Pro and Logic?

I have a G5 with Logic Pro and it gets nowhere close to my HD system so that's why I have both.

Of course I wish that it could so I could get rid of my PT HD system and have it all in one computer (arranging/recording/mixing) but it just doesn't cut it for now.

With the native system, I can't have 100 tracks running (full arrangement with stacked harmonies and orchestra) and track vocals at the same time without going into a 'math tech' mode trying to work out latency figures and compensate here and there and... @[email protected]#@%$#%@$ Just too much stress with the stress I already have working with the deadlines I've got.

So can someone enlighten me as to what I've missed or am doing wrong here? If so, I can sell off my HD system.

I'm serious. heh

Your G5 is not a Mac Pro ......

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showt...ight=Mac+crazy

I personally haven't stepped up myself i'm waiting on a couple of compatible plugs or i just might wait for the octa core , what is certain is my friend has one and he is having difficulting getting to 25% cpu usage ....heh
Old 8th February 2007
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H-Rezz View Post
Well tell us what the other things are ?
3)Bigger plug-in count

And i agree you cann't compare it 1:1 because i'd have to buy 7 proccessor cards to one Mac Pro , not to mention slot alocation on the DSP chips themselves ....
Actually, with TDM, you always get what everyone else does, PLUS the TDM count. It is simply 1 does not equal 1+x.

But I get the point- native alone is capable of more plug-ins than TDM cards alone.
Old 8th February 2007
  #136
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Plug-ins that are TDM but not native...
Eventide for one. Mainly because the coding for the hardware units happens to be the same as for the HD cards. To port the over would require alot of work. Might explain why they are not too expensive; not much work to "port" for HD. There are others, but it is stupid to contemplate this I think. As an exmaple, I wanted to rid myself of Waves forever. But how to replace MondoMod and others? Simple...there are hundreds of plug-ins out there. Maybe "A" is not exactly the same as "Z" that you have used for several years, but quality? Lol...yeah, somehow I think you would be able to find something as good...

As far as the rest of the arguments concerning "Well, native can as much and more than TDM, why would I want to waste my money with it then?" Well, it is quite simple: if you do not get this, then you might be in the group that never will. Yet others do not want to understand. And others do not want anything "Digidesign." But, there is a small group who understand, and prefer that enviornment. As an example, if I were presented with two rooms to do my tracking and mixing, both completely identical except one had an HD7 Accel with the PT HD software (the other room could also have PT HD software if I wanted, without requiring I use the HD cards, and both rooms had all the same plug-ins available as TDM, RTAS, VST, AU, etc, and I could use any native DAW app in the other room if I wanted), and if use of either room was the exact same cost (free maybe? just for this "what if?"), I would pick the HD7 Accel room every time, no doubts. If I were outfitting my own project studio for my use? I would rather have the PT HD software in a native only form. I would not want to be sinking the cash into it. But, if there was just enough money and I could choose between Symphony or PT HD (Mac Pro with an HD3 Accel), I would choose spending the extra for the PT HD rig. Would love to have the PT HD software available for use with native only though...
Old 8th February 2007
  #137
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my 2 c would be...

now that you can put RTAS plugs on an aux return in ProTools HD.... you can use the CPU power of your G5 or your MacPro for RTAS plugs.... plus the TDM power in an HD rig - so you get the best of both worlds....

and.... yes, it is more expensive to get a TDM rig, but i think a TDM rig with Protools is, by far, the best for mixing ITB, and editing ITB..... WAY better than Logic or other native solutions.... and the basically zero latency can be very, very handy in ProTools HD. (especially for going out and back to analog processors)

if you are a serious mixer or editor, using ProTools HD is a no-brainer. If your business can afford the rig, and you need it, then buy it.

If it is just a hobby, then it is a completely different story......

just my 2c

YMMV
Old 9th February 2007
  #138
Gear Nut
 

OK,

Pro Tools HD1 System:
4400 = 192IO W/.8 channel expansion card
7000 = Pro Tools HD1 System - Software Included
2500 = Mac Pro
Totals = 13900


6500 = AD16x, & DA16x
700 = Symphony Card, & Software
2500 = Mac Pro
1000 to 2000 = Logic Pro, Nuendo
Totals = 10700 to 11700


If you get the Pro Tools HD1 system you get the worldwide compatability of Pro Tools professional user base + an immense amount of plugins that can be run in RTAS because of the power of the Mac Pro, & a reliable platform with good technical support from one company.

If you get the Symphony system with Logic Pro, or Nuendo you only get the power of the Mac Pro, & a weak professional user base with a divided tech support establishment. Why divided. If you have a problem with the system you have to talk to both Apple for Logic Pro, &/or Steinberg for Nuendo plus Apogee.

I think the 2200 to 3200 cost difference is worth it to have Pro Tools HD just based upon the user base, & the lack of hastle in dealing with only one company for tech support. Especially if you run a commercial facility where a small amount of down time could mean losing a whole days studio booking fees, not to mention your reputation. I've already gone thru issues in the past going back, & forth between Digidesign, & Apple in getting Logic Pro to work with Pro Tools HD hardware. The same might happen with me between Apogee, & Apple for Logic Pro, or Steinberg for Nuendo. Just my opinion.


Thresholdstike
Old 9th February 2007
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
OK,

Pro Tools HD1 System:
4400 = 192IO W/.8 channel expansion card
7000 = Pro Tools HD1 System - Software Included
2500 = Mac Pro
Totals = 13900


6500 = AD16x, & DA16x
700 = Symphony Card, & Software
2500 = Mac Pro
1000 to 2000 = Logic Pro, Nuendo
Totals = 10700 to 11700


If you get the Pro Tools HD1 system you get the worldwide compatability of Pro Tools professional user base + an immense amount of plugins that can be run in RTAS because of the power of the Mac Pro, & a reliable platform with good technical support from one company.

If you get the Symphony system with Logic Pro, or Nuendo you only get the power of the Mac Pro, & a weak professional user base with a divided tech support establishment. Why divided. If you have a problem with the system you have to talk to both Apple for Logic Pro, &/or Steinberg for Nuendo plus Apogee.

I think the 2200 to 3200 cost difference is worth it to have Pro Tools HD just based upon the user base, & the lack of hastle in dealing with only one company for tech support. Especially if you run a commercial facility where a small amount of down time could mean losing a whole days studio booking fees, not to mention your reputation. I've already gone thru issues in the past going back, & forth between Digidesign, & Apple in getting Logic Pro to work with Pro Tools HD hardware. The same might happen with me between Apogee, & Apple for Logic Pro, or Steinberg for Nuendo. Just my opinion.


Thresholdstike
Your math is not correct and you are missing items to make a true comparison. I’ll use your example. Prices are based on Retail for both packages; you would get comparable discounts online for all products listed.

Retail to Retail

Pro Tools HD1 System:
3995 = 192 I/O
1295 = 8 channel AD Expansion
1295 = 8 channel DA Expansion
7995 = Pro Tools HD1 System - Software Included
2500 = Mac Pro
Totals = 17,080


6990 = AD16x, & DA16x
795 = Symphony Card, & Software
200 = XSymphony Card
200 = XSymphony Card
2500 = Mac Pro
1000 = Logic Pro
Totals = 11,685

Variance = 5,395

Although I would rather use a Protools LE system than use a Logic/Symphony system, only because I do not like Logic. I love protools, so, I’m the guy that will spend the extra cash just to use protools. Plus in real world, if I was looking to make the jump, and I have been looking. I would buy used, so here is what it looks like used based on my observations from eBay.

Pro Tools HD1 System:
2200 = 192 I/O
700 = 8 channel AD Expansion
700 = 8 channel DA Expansion
3400 = Pro Tools HD1 System - Software Included
2500 = Mac Pro
Totals = 9,500

This is not the best comparison because it’s based on an HD1 Core and not Accel and the prices would be more realistically compared to street prices on above.
Old 9th February 2007
  #140
Gear Nut
 

barryjohns,

I don't know who you buy from but whatever retailer it is is getting you, & good too. He He.heh Also you can only put one AD expansion card in a Digidesign 192IO hence my quote is correct. Also the Symphony card in my prices is included in the cost for the AD16x, & DA16x.

Threshold.stike
Old 9th February 2007
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
barryjohns,

I don't know who you buy from but whatever retailer it is is getting you, & good too. He He.heh Also you can only put one AD expansion card in a Digidesign 192IO hence my quote is correct. Also the Symphony card in my prices is included in the cost for the AD16x, & DA16x.

Threshold.stike
Ok, that just stupid. I clearly indicated in my comments that the example is for retail to retail for price comparison only. If you are going to compare Apogee AD/DA 16's then you have to put both an AD and a DA card in the 192 for a total of 16 I/O. You also need the Xsymphony, 1 each, for both the Apogee DA16 and AD16, you forgot about that. Your prices were all over the board and not correct. Some items were close and others nowhere close. The prices I listed are from Sweetwater retail.

You’re trying to make a point that is not based on facts. I simply corrected your incorrect numbers with the right ones.

If your going to make a financial comparison, then do it apples to apples, either retail on both, or street prices on both, not retail on some and street prices on others, which is what you were much closer to.

Threshold, you seem like some young kid. If you want to be taken seriously in a forum like this, you've really got to think before you type.
Old 9th February 2007
  #142
Gear Nut
 

barryjohns,

The proper definition of a retail purchase is when product is purchased from a retailer. That price does not have to be 'list'. You should have said list price from the beginning. Also what you should have said was retail to consumer. The normal scheme is wholesaler to retailer, then retailer to consumer. Go to business school, & take a marketing, economics or accounting class then come back, & talk to me. Also I don't know of any 'kids' with college credits in business, & academically have performed tasks on an MBA level. If you can't define 'retail' correctly I would'nt trust you to compile a due diligence report, tell me what a deviation analysis, or quick test is in the area of business/finance. These are a few things I've had to deal with in commerce.

Threshold.stike
Old 9th February 2007
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Threshold View Post
barryjohns,

The proper definition of a retail purchase is when product is purchased from a retailer. That price does not have to be 'list'. You should have said list price from the beginning. Go to business school, & take a marketing, or accounting class then come back, & talk to me.

Threshold.stike
"Your math is not correct and you are missing items to make a true comparison. I’ll use your example. Prices are based on Retail for both packages; you would get comparable discounts online for all products listed."

I think its understood by the average guy that Retail and List is interchangeable terminology. Also, I indicated as you can see, regarding typical discounts that we all get when purchasing gear. I don't know why I do this with you. You’ve frustrated about everyone in this thread with your rhetoric about written documentation when people were trying to help. You just want to argue. There doesn't seem to be any reasoning with you.

Oh, and by the way, recording is my passion, not my source of income, I run an 80 Million Dollar a Year operation in Las Vegas. I think I know a thing or two about running a successful business. Stop by and see me the next time your in Vegas, I'll show you what that's like.
Old 9th February 2007
  #144
Gear Nut
 

Yeah,

I can tell by your equipment list(that music in only your passion not your source of income).
But, thanks anyway for your input. Oh, & by the way I used to work with a 'major' casino in New Jersey before I got into the music biz so I can tell you a few things about what goes on in 'Vegas' as well.

Threshold.stike
Old 9th February 2007
  #145
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guys, give it a rest....

Old 9th February 2007
  #146
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Alright.
Old 9th February 2007
  #147
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OK then. Back to the original subject.

Threshold.stike
Old 9th February 2007
  #148
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A few comments...

Here's the setup I used after having sold the DSP cards (before I let go of the entire HD-system):

Pro Tools HD1 System:
3995 = 192 I/O
1295 = 8 channel AD Expansion
7995 = Pro Tools HD1 System
Totals = 13,285

Right now I'm on RME FF800, which is good, but I think the 192 sounds slightly better.

A major minus with a PCI-card based setup is lack of portability. To run it, I either need a large Mac, or a portable Mac with an expansion chassis (extra cost, weight, size).

Now, one of the alternatives could be:
6990 = AD16x, & DA16x
(price not announced?) = Symphony Mobile
200 = XSymphony Card
200 = XSymphony Card
1000 = Logic Pro

This could run on a MacBook Pro - without an expansion chassis, which for me is rather important - so important that I would be willing to pay extra for it (but I assume that the small Symphony Mobile card will be less expensive than the PCI-e equivalent.) I don't need 16 outs, so a drawback with this system is that I'm paying for lots of outs I don't want. A solution with Rosetta 800 or 200 should probably be considered instead. It would cost less, but then I wouldn't have the benefits of the built in BigBen clocking technology in the AD16/DA16s... (not that I would have these with Digidesign's 192 I/O either).

None of these comparisons would be 100% 'fair', since the systems aren't identical re. ins and outs, and because AD16/DA16 is considered an upgrade to the 192 I/O by most people, not only because of the extra ins/outs and the UV22HR, but due to the difference in sound quality. My personal conclusion is that there seems to be a missing link in the Apogee product line, namely an I/O that has the sound quality and clocking of the AD/DA-series, but the format of the 192 (8 analog ins and outs). Or even better: 10-12 analog ins and 4-6 analog outs.

Since neither the 192 or Rosetta has the BigBen-technology, someone would maybe suggest that a more fair comparison would be between a Symphony system running Rosetta 800, and a ProTools HD rig running the 192, but I don't know enough about the difference between the two to have an opinion about that. If they are in the same sound quality league, the price difference would be rather big.

The most fair comparison would maybe be between a PT system using AD16 and DA16, and a Symphony system using the same converters. In that case, the price difference would be $6200 (wouldn't it?), but since a HD1 system doesn't offer much DSP power, the main thing (if we exclude all kinds of preferences regarding functionality/features for now) we would get for those $6200, would be the 0.something ms difference in latency (and a little DSP power).

The ProTools software costs $4000 (the difference between a HD1 package and a card alone - the core cards are essentially the same as the plain DSP cards). Not only that, but Digidesign is happy to sell the cards for $2000 each (if you buy an expanded system like HD2 or HD3) which means that they can sell these cards for $2000 list and still make money on them. Essentially, this either means that the real world price for the PT software alone is $6000, and/or that they are charging double the price of what they could have charged for each card sold separately.

If they would charge $1000 for the software, like most others do, and sell the core card for $2000 (which they could do, if they wanted to), a PT HD1 system would have cost $3000 ex. I/O. Now, that would have been interesting, if it weren't for the un-portability involved in using PCI-cards (which matters for me personally) and other issues those of us who prefer Logic or other native solutions have with PT/TDM.
Old 9th February 2007
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
A few comments...

If they would charge $1000 for the software, like most others do, and sell the core card for $2000 (which they could do, if they wanted to), a PT HD1 system would have cost $3000 ex. I/O. Now, that would have been interesting, if it weren't for the un-portability involved in using PCI-cards (which matters for me personally) and other issues those of us who prefer Logic or other native solutions have with PT/TDM.
I think they are going to have to do something like this in the near future, with Native evolving like it is. If they do, I believe they would increase their market share significantly.
Old 9th February 2007
  #150
Max
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
Now, one of the alternatives could be:
6990 = AD16x, & DA16x
(price not announced?) = Symphony Mobile
200 = XSymphony Card
200 = XSymphony Card
1000 = Logic Pro

This could run on a MacBook Pro - without an expansion chassis, which for me is rather important - so important that I would be willing to pay extra for it (but I assume that the small Symphony Mobile card will be less expensive than the PCI-e equivalent.) I don't need 16 outs, so a drawback with this system is that I'm paying for lots of outs I don't want. A solution with Rosetta 800 or 200 should probably be considered instead. It would cost less, but then I wouldn't have the benefits of the built in BigBen clocking technology in the AD16/DA16s... (not that I would have these with Digidesign's 192 I/O either).
Symphony Mobile retails for $595.00. As for not needing 16 outputs, using the AD-16X in Advanced Routing Mode would allow you to configure an AD-16X and a Mini-DAC ($795.00) for 16X2 in a 2U rack and save money on the D/A. This setup also provides attenuation and a high quality headphone out without compromising D/A quality.

A setup we did for Seal includes 2 Mini-MP mic pres ($795.00 Each) to fill out the second rack space and provide 4 channels of high quality mic pres.

So the base system would spec out like this:

$3,495 - AD16-X
$595 - Symphony Mobile
$200 - X-Symphony Card
$795 - Mini-DAC
$995 - Logic Pro

Total: $6080.00

Add 4 channels of Mic pre via the Mini-MP without adding rack space for $1,590 more.

We have a bunch of sample systems with the MSRP listed on our website: http://www.apogeedigital.com/product...ny_systems.php.
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