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Sommer/Monster/Mogami Test - Does It Realy Matter ?
Old 23rd January 2007
  #1
Gear Head
 
steviesteve's Avatar
 

Sommer/Monster/Mogami Test - Does It Realy Matter ?

I'm an italian musician/producer and not an real engineer.
now i'm upgrading my gear to get a better sound (sick of digital ...ProTools)
So i tested some cables:

I recorded them with a Rhode NTK > Rhode Tube Cable > Rhode Power Supply > Cable(=test) > Mindprint DTC > RME ADI 8 AE > ProTools Mix3 TDM on OS9(Mac).
Cables:
Monster Pro Series 1 (the super thick one), Monster StudioPro1000, Sommer Albedo, Mogami Neglex2534, Cordial CMTOP222.

My results/opinion:
At least the Monster Series 1 became my favorite. There is more transparency and db/loudness. Sommer Albedo is realy cool but there are more high frequences (well its a metter of taste and i like it) and it hasn't all the tranparency (like all the other cables) that has the thick Monster. But i must admit that SOMMER makes realy fine stuff.

... i have for monitoring a Sommer EPILOGUE between the RME and an NAD 350 AMP to custom made speakers and i'm pretty satisfied with the tranparenc highs.

The Monster Studio1000 is on the second place but the difference to the other cables isn't that significant. Place three is the Mogami ...last the Cordial.


in my outboard racks there are Monster 500 snakes and old Belden 15128
... of course Monster is much better.

Here in Italy everyone has PROEL (and some Tasker). Never tested them but i'm sure they can't keep up with the other ones.

(?)
Before updating the whole studio to Monster (maybe some Sommer) (into a Focusrite 115HD) and spending a lot of money, i want to know if there are realy better solutions (i read other threats... but nobody mentioned SOMMER Cables and the importance of the right tin-solder).
(?)
Are AMPHENOL better than NEUTRIK connectors ?
(?)
Should i use WBT silver tin-solder ?

_____
steviesteve
Old 23rd January 2007
  #2
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A440's Avatar
Have you tried Van Damme cables? What do you think of those?
Old 23rd January 2007
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A440 View Post
Have you tried Van Damme cables? What do you think of those?
Those must be kick-ass cables. Literally.
Old 23rd January 2007
  #4
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steviesteve's Avatar
 

VanDamm cables: never heard about

here in italy we don't have all these super fine gear in the stores
their are rare to find ... very rare ...that's why i am here in this form ... to learn

only the very big studios here have some fin gear ... but i must admit that reading
their equipment list, the most of the are using standard gear ...the normal things offered in europe's on line stores(except london). you are in the states in gears heaven!

as i mentioned, here they use a lot of proel cables.

i think there is nobody thinking about tin-solder ;-) and using amphenol connectors instead of neutrik ...

i read insome tread here that they consider VOVOX cable to be better then MONSTER. ... that would be nice because it's a swiss product ..not to far from me.
Old 23rd January 2007
  #5
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andrewj's Avatar
VOVOX???

ever compared iwth the monsters???
Old 23rd January 2007
  #6
Lives for gear
This thread is useless without sound samples. Otherwise, I will continue with my assertation that high end mic cables are snake oil bull****.

But feel free to prove me wrong.
Old 23rd January 2007
  #7
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steviesteve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewj View Post
VOVOX???

ever compared iwth the monsters???
i've never compared them

a producer friend of mine swears on monster prolink series 1
(i think it's difficult to find) and we both bought it

it's incredible how a simple SM58 sounds much much better with this cable.

a singer i know uses only vovox and is pritty happy with it.

so you're telling me that nothing(or vovox)is better than monster ?
or do you have expiriences with alternatives ?
Old 23rd January 2007
  #8
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steviesteve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorGlory View Post
This thread is useless without sound samples. Otherwise, I will continue with my assertation that high end mic cables are snake oil bull****.

But feel free to prove me wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoorGlory View Post
This thread is useless without sound samples. Otherwise, I will continue with my assertation that high end mic cables are snake oil bull****.

But feel free to prove me wrong.
well, i don't think mp3s are the right choice to compare the samples
... well, ok,...we should do it with wav (which i'm sure i will not find on my harddisks anymore ?-) )

but maybe you are realy right that all this cable hype is bullshxx
first of all we need a realy good soundin control room (well measured)

and i hope that my new mic pre (focusrite 115HD ... it's not yet cabled/my in rack and i realy don't know if it is all the money wort i spent) will put into perspective all the cable threads around in gearslutz i'm checking out.

but i think, the gooood engineers swears on good cables (so do i)

anyhow
there is also the question, if i purechase the monsters, about cabeling my outboard racks.
the monster snakes are only the prolink500 (unfortunately not 1000).
so i am about to cable every gear apart with 1000ers directly into the rme's
...no snakes ...i don't use patchbays to get a more direcy signal.

is that a good idea ore are ther cool snakes doing a better job than the monsters 500?
Old 23rd January 2007
  #9
Gear Nut
 
*CISKO*'s Avatar
 

tin solder, don´t knock it

its obvious the silver will sound nicer, but hey ssl uses 60/40 rosin core tin solder, so if its good for them its good enough for me
rawk!
Old 23rd January 2007
  #10
Lives for gear
 
Zwinter's Avatar
 

Well, I am of the opinion that there are bigger fish to fry. For example, the Rode mic you are using isn't my personal favorite, in fact it's not in my top ten. I have used the Rode mics and compared them to Gefell and Soundelux, the results were the Rode mics never sounded as good. They were harsh and unpleasant. Plus, RME converters are not known for being incredibly nice. Consequently, I don't understand why you would, in my opinion, waste your time and money on cables.

Plus, after working in some great studios like Cello and seeing people make records we listen to everyday I came to the conclusion that since they don't care about what cables they use, why should I.

I am sorry if this was a little harsh, but I don't understand why people buy into the marketing hype of cables. I am afraid that you are losing sight of the big picture.
Old 23rd January 2007
  #11
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tamasdragon's Avatar
 

Rme uses different brands and types of ad da converters. There is better and there is cheaper, but they are generally good ones. (akm, crystal)
You can always shop for better, but rme is definately better than many alternatives on the market. Sorry for the ot.
Tamas Dragon
Old 23rd January 2007
  #12
Gear Head
 
steviesteve's Avatar
 

>>>but hey ssl uses 60/40 rosin core tin solder
Thanx, good hint.

>>>Rhode
yes, that's absolutley right!
but it was my first mic in my new studio here in italy (i worked before in anotherone ... not italy)

actually i am to buy a neumann (i never heard a gefell but they say it's wonderfull ... which one do you suggest???))
... i don't like very mauch the U87 (here standard of all speaker togather with an avalone) and so i'm looking for a M149 (dreaming of a vintage M49)

but before i spent all this money i'd like to test a cheap APEX 460 (tube, about 200-250 usd) modifying in vienna by an there well known engineer. he says that after the mod it will for shure sounds very close to neumann. .... i will try it.
than i will go to the music store and will spent a lot of cash for neumann or what ever sounds realy high end.

>>>RME
yes, they are not on the top. but i think they are ok till i update all my outboard to high end ... i am just beginning with it.
but i also have in mind to buy a crane song hedd. so thats the end of my recording chain includin a nice (and i think better than rme) converter and by the way with a nice tape emulation ... for this tape emu i am also considering to get a fatso or el8 to add to my chain ...now after the focusrite 115hd i am going into cl1b's ... the fatso should be much better for drums and fast attack things (??)

well, you see, the cable problem is maybe useless but i want to convince myself that i here a BIG difference ;-) ... you was not harsh

>>>RME
i heard too that they are ok
i think there is no sense spending more money for a rosetta800 'cause the rme should be very close (?)

... ah, yeah ...we are talkin' about cables
but i like the other topics too !!
Old 24th January 2007
  #13
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by steviesteve View Post
well, i don't think mp3s are the right choice to compare the samples
... well, ok,...we should do it with wav (which i'm sure i will not find on my harddisks anymore ?-) )

but maybe you are realy right that all this cable hype is bullshxx
first of all we need a realy good soundin control room (well measured)

and i hope that my new mic pre (focusrite 115HD ... it's not yet cabled/my in rack and i realy don't know if it is all the money wort i spent) will put into perspective all the cable threads around in gearslutz i'm checking out.

but i think, the gooood engineers swears on good cables (so do i)

anyhow
there is also the question, if i purechase the monsters, about cabeling my outboard racks.
the monster snakes are only the prolink500 (unfortunately not 1000).
so i am about to cable every gear apart with 1000ers directly into the rme's
...no snakes ...i don't use patchbays to get a more direcy signal.

is that a good idea ore are ther cool snakes doing a better job than the monsters 500?

If you need an amazing sounding control room to hear the difference in cables, and decently converted mp3's won't demonstate the differences well enough, my opinion is this: The differences between cables are negligible and mic placement, mic choice, and preamps will make the most difference (in that order or importance). If moving a mic 2 centimeters will make a discernable difference in response, why should we even care about high-end cables that you can't hear without an amazing control room and $10,000 monitors?

Give me a roll of Belden mic cable and a bunch of Switchcraft connectors and I'll solder you an entire studio.

Of course, you'll have to pay me.
Old 24th January 2007
  #14
Gear Nut
 

Well your prob perfer the monster cause its not showing you the crapyy sound of the rode. Monster are welllll over priced cables, mogami beats any monster cable.
Old 24th January 2007
  #15
Gear Head
 
steviesteve's Avatar
 

The differences between cables are negligible and mic placement, mic choice, and preamps will make the most difference .....why should we even care about high-end cables that you can't hear without an amazing control room and $10,000 monitors?

Give me a roll of Belden mic cable and a bunch of Switchcraft connectors and I'll solder you an entire studio.

Of course, you'll have to pay me. [/QUOTE]

________________
>>>differences...cable
ok. i see, i'm on the wrong way. but writing "monster cables" on my equipment list, should be impressing for all non-freaks ;-)

>>>switchcraft connectors ...
thanx for the hint!

>>>Of course, you'll have to pay me...
well, that realy would fine... but you have to come to italy (... for free of of course) ;-))
Old 24th January 2007
  #16
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steviesteve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gearobsessed View Post
Well your prob perfer the monster cause its not showing you the crapyy sound of the rode. Monster are welllll over priced cables, mogami beats any monster cable.
>>>rhode ...crapy sound
... iknow, i know

>>>mogami

at the end
here it is: everybody confirm that there are no differences between cables.
BUT:
everybody swears on different cable types:
VanDammn, Belden, Mogami, Monster
AND THERE WE HAVE IT AGAIN:
w h a t i s t h e r i g h t cable ???


i think i will sell all my stuff and buy an used G4, a digi001 and a behringer-pre with a samson mic
... and of course, i will take a cable from my car's handbrake :-))))
Old 24th January 2007
  #17
Dan
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Dan's Avatar
 

In my experience, there is a difference between cables. However, the difference is small compared to equipment. If you have to buy new cable, I can understand the question. Monster cable is high priced, and I don't think the thick jacketing is usefull at all for installed cabling. There is really no difference in the guage of the cables, and even if there were, you have more capacitance issues with a larger cable. I don't know about the distribution channels of cable in Europe, but Mogami, Canare, and Belden are usually the top contenders in the U.S. Most studios don't use Monster, because the difference in price is more due to the cost of marketing, than quality of cable.
Also, I have a hard time imagining a client using a studio because it has Monster cable. I know it's possible, but way in the minority, and unlikely.
Old 25th January 2007
  #18
Gear Addict
 
drummerboy1533's Avatar
 

I think I'll invest in a spool of Belden 85207.Yeah, it's stiffer than a corpse but is was witnessed to make a signifigant difference in clarity and "bigness." I think I priced a 100ft roll for about $250.Should make 4-5 mic cables.
Old 25th January 2007
  #19
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frans's Avatar
Here are some further explanations and opinions:

http://www.lavacable.com/cable_comparison.htm

I don't agree on everything in that article but, hey, good cables last longer than bad ones. We have a guitar cable from the 50's - it looks like Belden and -with new plugs- is still going.
Old 25th January 2007
  #20
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by steviesteve View Post
here in italy we don't have all these super fine gear in the stores
their are rare to find ... very rare ...that's why i am here in this form ... to learn
only the very big studios here have some fin gear ... but i must admit that reading
their equipment list, the most of the are using standard gear ...the normal things offered in europe's on line stores(except london). you are in the states in gears heaven!

Hi Stevie!
My name is Frank, I'm Italian, like you. I feel a little bit sick about your post... I really don't think that Italy hasn't good stores selling fine gear. If you don't know these stores I can give you some addresses, no problems. Send me a PM. In these stores you will find - without problems - Mogami, Canare, Belden, Monster cables and Neutrik connectors of every type. So, before giving a bad image of Italy think about that!
Have a nice day my man

Frank
Old 25th January 2007
  #21
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steviesteve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankreverbo View Post
Hi Stevie!
My name is Frank, I'm Italian, like you. I feel a little bit sick about your post... I really don't think that Italy hasn't good stores selling fine gear. If you don't know these stores I can give you some addresses, no problems. Send me a PM. In these stores you will find - without problems - Mogami, Canare, Belden, Monster cables and Neutrik connectors of every type. So, before giving a bad image of Italy think about that!
Have a nice day my man

Frank
hi frank!
i don't want you to feel sick. sorry if i did so!

of course there are some realy good shops - italy is full of
great musicians, studios, and there are some realy super
fine productions, which are not inferior to great american
production (... apart the fact that some are produced in LA, ...)
so here in italy there "must" be good shops.

i've seen some medium-large studios not paying very much
attention to cabels, using only proel. but the realy big studios,
i think, they do.

there were some expiriences with some shops
...FunkyJunk eg. ... some things are hard to find
... even at merula (i am in the north)

anyway, please give me the links! it's good to get
to know realy good shops. (please post them here)

i purchase all my stuff in germany, sometimes in UK
and even france (playback, they've all the monster)
of course in US too... eg altomusic ...
.... i use my international vat.id and get the gear net.

and it is a fact, that mostly there it's cheaper than italy.

but it is an old opinion, that nearly everybody think that
italy is not organized as the rest of northern europe.
...sorry for that, but i am an austrian living here in italy.... ;-)

but that is only an opinion and i came to italy only recently.
Old 25th January 2007
  #22
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steviesteve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by frans View Post
Here are some further explanations and opinions:

http://www.lavacable.com/cable_comparison.htm

I don't agree on everything in that article but, hey, good cables last longer than bad ones. We have a guitar cable from the 50's - it looks like Belden and -with new plugs- is still going.

later when i have more time i will read it mindfully!

does anybody here use SOMMER cables ???

http://www.sommercable.com/2__default/index.html
(or eg. www.kabelsound.de )
Old 25th January 2007
  #23
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frans's Avatar
I use some Sommer cable, nice stuff.
Old 25th January 2007
  #24
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drBill's Avatar
Stevie, I won't dispute the cable wars. I have my opinions, but I will say that your money could be better off spent on other areas of your studio. As long as you have "decent" cable, you should be spending your money on upgrading mics, pre's converters, and please.....please, upgrade that mix system to a HD system. That will make 1000X's the difference in sound that any cable could make.

As we say here in the states, "you're barking up the wrong tree". (Looking in the wrong place for your improvements.)
Old 25th January 2007
  #25
Gear Addict
 

VoVox!!

depth, dimension, tranparency!!!!!
Old 25th January 2007
  #26
Gear Head
 
steviesteve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barish View Post
We use Sommer cables here and they are damn good.

And Sommer is certainly that type of cable. Both for mic cables and multicores. I used to be a fan of Klotz', but the foil shielded Sommer changed my mind.
------
Damn Germans. They are not the brightest people for coming up with contemporary music right enough, but they really got a good crack in this technology thing. You gotta love everything they do.

B.
yes, i like sommer cables too
and ingo remmers of kabelsound.de is a kind guy.

there are so many possibilities and that's confusing ?-/

but at the end the best thing is to write all the cable manufacturing brands
on a sheet of paper, crying them out one after another and listen to my
friends dog at which name he barks louder ... heh

... i will think about sommer ....


.... germans ... yes, in fact i am thinking about to move
to berlin or something like that ... but italy is nice too...
Old 25th January 2007
  #27
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steviesteve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chester View Post
VoVox!!

depth, dimension, tranparency!!!!!

...... ahhh, here we have it again
that was a hurting stab in the back

... but my friends dog will be happy

here is the next big question:
vovox better than sommer ??
Old 25th January 2007
  #28
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steviesteve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Stevie, I won't dispute the cable wars. I have my opinions, but I will say that your money could be better off spent on other areas of your studio. As long as you have "decent" cable, you should be spending your money on upgrading mics, pre's converters, and please.....please, upgrade that mix system to a HD system. That will make 1000X's the difference in sound that any cable could make.

As we say here in the states, "you're barking up the wrong tree". (Looking in the wrong place for your improvements.)
no more cable wars
(in the backround is playing john williams ..)

i AM upgrading my studio and till now i spent a lot of money

mix to hd ..... the wrong tree (?)
i know, but at the moment it's better for me to spent money for the other gear
a fine chain, synths, more power in the computers, new programs
(no cracks, i am sick of having no updates and some instability),
a lot of sound libraries, outboard fx, ....

at the mo my mix24 does a perfect job ...for hd i will see in 1 or 2 years
.... who knows what new incredible magic (pro)tools will come up
... maybe hd will be obsolete

and don't forget
a mix24 system is "v i n t a g e"
Old 25th January 2007
  #29
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analogtodd's Avatar
 

Monster cables are about the only thing I won't use.

For the most part a cable is a cable...

Monster uses crappy 1/4 plugs that don't always seat correctly.
(well all of the instrument cables I've seen)

Its been enough for me to throw a decent known good cable at
someone when I see them using a Monster instrument cable.

I think its possible to sit and do critical listening and hear minor variations
with cabling, but just get something decent and start mixing music!!!

Spending $100 on an instrument lead just isn't rock n roll....
Old 26th January 2007
  #30
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Barish's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by steviesteve View Post
yes, i like sommer cables too
and ingo remmers of kabelsound.de is a kind guy.

there are so many possibilities and that's confusing ?-/
I don't understand.

Why is it confusing?

Get the most cost effective one that fits the technical spec bill and move on.


You need a cable that:

- rejects outside interference as much as it can,

- has as less capacitance as possible,

- is Oxygen free,

- is flexible and easy to work with,

- does not crackle.


Find one, buy it and move on.

What does your local shop have? Sommer? Klotz? Van Damme? Canford own brand? Studiospares own brand? Or whatever? Buy it and move on.

Don't think about it. The cable business is strictly technical and nothing empirical.

It can help you save your hair and tears when it is of good quality, but it will never make your crappy speaker sing, or turn the water into wine. It will not get your converter rid of its jitter either.

Don't be confused by the audiophile marketing bull**** they use for those who get paid more than they know what to do with and sad enough to not go out on a Friday night but rather sit in and trainspot the details in the noise we make back in the studio, which are not actually there in the first place

So buy something and move on.

B.
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