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The 10MX clock has changed my studio Audio Interfaces
Old 19th December 2015
  #1
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Greg Wells's Avatar
The 10MX clock has changed my studio

After a long hiatus from being overly enthusiastic on Gearslutz, which always seems to bring out the haterz, I have to share that I've been a big big fan of the Antelope 10M clock paired with the Trinity. When it replaced my Big Ben six years ago, it felt like my mixing game went up about 80 stories. To my surprise, when I test drove the new 10MX, I immediately got in line to buy one. It finally arrived last week and I want to scream from the mountain top how gorgeously musical it makes my mixes and studio sound. The music has tripled in information, if that makes sense. There's more note. More music, and a more analog sound. I'm addicted and actually wake up counting the hours until I'm back at the studio making music and mixes with the 10MX. It's crazy to me that something so clinical that controls zeros and ones can make the music sound so much more natural. Forgive the raving. I think auditioning one is the only way to know. After hearing how great the new clock made things sound, I had to check out the Pure2 converter. I print all my mixes out of the Undertone console back into Pro Tools through a Burl B2 converter. I swapped it with a Pure2 and the results weren't subtle. We all heard the difference, from the artist to my studio manager. Wtf is happening at Antelope? Makes me feel terrible for all the mixes printed without my current setup. And yes, I bought my 10MX.
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Old 19th December 2015
  #2
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Analogue Mastering's Avatar
This is how this thread will go
- the usual posse will the tell you embedded clocking is best
- they will quote Lavry
- they will drag out the old S.O.S. Article again
- they will tell external clocking is always a compromise and you actually prefer distortion/jitter

Just trust your ears and enjoy your upgrade. You're not wrong
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Old 19th December 2015
  #3
Same clock as the Zen right? I love my Zen and I think it sounds amazing
Old 19th December 2015
  #4
Thanks for sharing Greg! I haven't used a master clock in my system at all but, for the first time, I'm wondering...
Old 19th December 2015
  #5
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Brian Campbell's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Analogue Mastering View Post
This is how this thread will go
- the usual posse will the tell you embedded clocking is best
- they will quote Lavry
- they will drag out the old S.O.S. Article again
- they will tell external clocking is always a compromise and you actually prefer distortion/jitter

Just trust your ears and enjoy your upgrade. You're not wrong
You forgot
-post some samples with and without so we can all hear the difference...
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Old 19th December 2015
  #6
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Time to get a clock?

Thanks for the post Greg. Very timely. I'm actually considering adding a few more devices to my rig that have digital outs and have been reading all morning about clocks. Currently I don't have a clock but am interested in strapping a UA-4710D to my DM3200 for kick and snare. Lots of different opinions on GS about this @analogue Mastering nailed it. Lol. Every thread I've read so far has the same flow. Anyway yeah, please post some audio if you can. Best wishes.


-FC.

Last edited by Funny Cat; 20th December 2015 at 12:10 AM..
Old 19th December 2015
  #7
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this is deeply disturbing! how dare you resurrect the clock monster i had beaten into the dark recesses of my mind I imagine the orion 32 is out of this pristine antelope picture, correct?
Old 20th December 2015
  #8
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IanBSC's Avatar
I for one would like to hear some clips.

What kind of converters are you using on the DAC side? I would imagine different converters vary in how they respond to external clocks.
Old 20th December 2015
  #9
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Greg Wells's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldi View Post
this is deeply disturbing! how dare you resurrect the clock monster i had beaten into the dark recesses of my mind I imagine the orion 32 is out of this pristine antelope picture, correct?
Ha! My understanding is the Orion has a lot of the same guts as the 10MX, but I'm not an expert on the entire Antelope line and haven't used the Orion yet.
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Old 20th December 2015
  #10
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Hi Greg,
Just curious...what sample rate are you working at?
Old 20th December 2015
  #11
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ARIEL's Avatar
I always enjoy your posts Greg ! keep them coming when you have time It got me thinking about the Rupert neve compressor thread .
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Old 20th December 2015
  #12
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Greg Wells's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by burnhard View Post
Hi Greg,
Just curious...what sample rate are you working at?
After trying several options, I'm on 44.1 kHz. It's the most stable on my computer with the way I work.
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Old 20th December 2015
  #13
How about a private gearslutz gathering at Greg's to hear it?? I'll buy the coffee.
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Old 20th December 2015
  #14
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Mania's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by auralart View Post
How about a private gearslutz gathering at Greg's to hear it?? I'll buy the coffee.
Oh how I'd love that to be a thing.

The annual GS Summit, were every quabble is resolved and the sciences are hailed as the way forward. Where the conditions are the same, the method is legit and opinions are meaningless
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Old 20th December 2015
  #15
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Wells View Post
After trying several options, I'm on 44.1 kHz. It's the most stable on my computer with the way I work.

What made you decide to integrate a clock in your setup?
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Old 21st December 2015
  #16
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TheOxmyn's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Wells View Post
After hearing how great the new clock made things sound, I had to check out the Pure2 converter. I print all my mixes out of the Undertone console back into Pro Tools through a Burl B2 converter. I swapped it with a Pure2 and the results weren't subtle. We all heard the difference, from the artist to my studio manager.
I'm gonna have to check out the Pure2 considering you just replaced the B2 Bomber w/ it.

I've been using B2 Bombers for the longest and this isn't the first time I come across a statement like yours.
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Old 21st December 2015
  #17
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TurboJets's Avatar
A friend of mine got an Antelope 10M for his mastering studio but hadn't said anything to me. I listened to a new project he was working on and told him something sounded different..."better". Enhanced clarity, a little more dimension and detail, etc. I asked him if he'd made any changes to his setup and he confessed he was now using the 10M for a clock.

Anecdotal? Perhaps. But I know what I heard...blind.
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Old 21st December 2015
  #18
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redgrovesound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Analogue Mastering View Post
This is how this thread will go
- the usual posse will the tell you embedded clocking is best
- they will quote Lavry
- they will drag out the old S.O.S. Article again
- they will tell external clocking is always a compromise and you actually prefer distortion/jitter

Just trust your ears and enjoy your upgrade. You're not wrong

Go it...

Embedded clocking is *always* the cleanest, most accurate and jitter free signal for modern converters.

Dan Lavry, the grand master Jedi of AD/DA conversion confirms this in a TapeOp interview, and a subsequent paper:

http://lavryengineering.com/pdfs/lavry-on-jitter.pdf

S.O.S. Further confirmed this through testing of master clocks:

https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun...sterclocks.htm

Conclusion.... your master clock is introducing jitter / distortion that you find appealing.
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Old 21st December 2015
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redgrovesound View Post
Go it...

Embedded clocking is *always* the cleanest, most accurate and jitter free signal for modern converters.

Dan Lavry, the grand master Jedi of AD/DA conversion confirms this in a TapeOp interview, and a subsequent paper:

http://lavryengineering.com/pdfs/lavry-on-jitter.pdf

S.O.S. Further confirmed this through testing of master clocks:

https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun...sterclocks.htm

Conclusion.... your master clock is introducing jitter / distortion that you find appealing.
These threads should be banned.
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Old 21st December 2015
  #20
Theory is of need to get a basic understanding of how things work, you won't be able to build a studio without doing a lot of reading and studying.
The interesting part is where the theory is no longer supporting what you are hearing, and I tend to go for what I'm hearing as people will be listening to my work, but if anyone feels the need to do a scientific analysis on my soundcloud I won't stop you.

Is this really a jitter thing ? ... So the most expensive clocks have the best sounding jitter ?

I would really like to hear this for myself,... So, a company X has send me this clock to try...
In my case I'm running a RME fireface800 with steadyclock technology, it's imuun to clock jitter.
I don't hear a difference at all with this machine, with any external clock.

So is this really all about "designer jitter" ?
@analogue mastering, you seem to be in my area, can I pay you a visit with this clock and do some listening test with me ?
Old 21st December 2015
  #21
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Mania's Avatar
 

I remember the emulated jitter the TAL Sampler emulates from old samplers, which in itself can sound pleasing depending on the source. I guess that might hold a clue? The fact that a clock can make a noticeable difference blind must mean something substantial is going on.
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Old 21st December 2015
  #22
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Wells View Post
… I want to scream from the mountain top how gorgeously musical it makes my mixes and studio sound.
i hear you way over here. :-)

Sure would be nice if you could record a simple little something, both with and without, and post them so we can all appreciate what you're appreciating.
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Old 21st December 2015
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Wells View Post
... it felt like my mixing game went up about 80 stories. ... I want to scream from the mountain top how gorgeously musical it makes my mixes and studio sound. The music has tripled in information, if that makes sense. There's more note. More music, and a more analog sound. ... can make the music sound so much more natural. ... how great the new clock made things sound ...
If I compare a mix coming directly from a console or a return from the 2-track, there is some difference, but even with cheaper converters, I wouldn't describe the difference as 80 stories high and wouldn't want to scream from the mountain top when I switch back to the mixbus.

How many times do you go from analog to digital and back? Or you are trying to say that it sounds even better after the conversion than before? Maybe you just exaggerate a bit because you're happy with new piece of gear?

Anyway, if there is such a drastic difference, I think that we, audio engineers, have to understand why and how it happens.
Maybe the Big Ben didn't perform well at all? Did you compare the Antelope to the internal clock?
One of the major problems with external clocking is that WC works at a considerably lower frequency than the circuits inside the converters and the frequency has to be multiplied, so you're basically slaving a 5.64 MHz clock to a 44.1 kHz clock. Besides that you're dealing with cable capacitance and interference.
Of course there are situations where you need a master clock and the Antelope might be the best solution, although I still don't understand what is the point of having an atomic clock for audio because AFAIK an OCXO has a much higher short term stability (i.e. lower jitter). The only situation where the long term stability of the atomic clock would be useful for audio that I can imagine is jam syncing - not something you would usually do in a studio.
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Old 21st December 2015
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Analogue Mastering View Post
This is how this thread will go
- the usual posse will the tell you embedded clocking is best
- they will quote Lavry
- they will drag out the old S.O.S. Article again
- they will tell external clocking is always a compromise and you actually prefer distortion/jitter

Just trust your ears and enjoy your upgrade. You're not wrong
LOFL


In the future, everyone will have their own, personal reality -- unperturbed by facts, science, or common sense.

Oh, wait, the future is here...
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Old 21st December 2015
  #25
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bigbone's Avatar
 

It's funny , someone share how he feel about a pieces of gear. and some
jump on him……. he doesn't want you opinion, he just share how he like the gear.
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Old 21st December 2015
  #26
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbone View Post
. he doesn't want you opinion, he just share how he like the gear.
I want to hear what he's hearing because I respect and value his opinion. I wouldn't call that "jumping all over him."
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Old 21st December 2015
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbone View Post
It's funny , someone share how he feel about a pieces of gear. and some
jump on him……. he doesn't want you opinion, he just share how he like the gear.
I'm just curious why something that shouldn't or doesn't work in most setups works for him.

If someone doesn't want a discussion, he shouldn't post to a forum unless he's simply trying to promote a product.

If you want to blindly believe into something, go into a church. There is already too much voodoo and snake oil in pro audio.
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Old 21st December 2015
  #28
Since some lines may be getting blurred in some minds, it should be noted that driving a single converter with an outboard clock with the intent of improving the accuracy -- or some sort of subjective appreciation of the resulting sound -- is a very different endeavor than using the best and/or most convenient clock source for a complex rig.

The physics of high frequency clock signals traveling over wire being what they are, in the the latter case, a clock distribution scenario, you clearly want to start with the best master clock you can -- but, ideally, you want to be using converters with the highest quality clock recovery you can find. The very best converters have extremely effective recovery circuits that can deliver extremely low jitter to the converters even when the source is compromised. [But, of course, you still want to follow the best practices in dealing with clock signal transmission with regard to proper cabling, termination, etc.]


That, of course, is a very different thing from using an external clock source with a single converter in the hope of somehow improving the sound (whether objectively or subjectively) of that converter.

I suspect keeping the issues clear will help keep things on track here.
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Old 21st December 2015
  #29
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bigbone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jetam View Post
I'm just curious why something that shouldn't or doesn't work in most setups works for him.

If someone doesn't want a discussion, he shouldn't post to a forum unless he's simply trying to promote a product.

If you want to blindly believe into something, go into a church. There is already too much voodoo and snake oil in pro audio.
if you read his post he never ask for your opinion or anyone else opinion
he just stated that he like a particular pieces of gear. Not everybody
here like to argue about gear here, some like it some don't . it isn't a rule
as far as i know………...
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Old 21st December 2015
  #30
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Since some lines may be getting blurred in some minds, it should be noted that driving a single converter with an outboard clock with the intent of improving the accuracy -- or some sort of subjective appreciation of the resulting sound -- is a very different endeavor than using the best and/or most convenient clock source for a complex rig.


<snip>


I suspect keeping the issues clear will help keep things on track here.

Yes. Agreed. Hence the reason I posted this earlier. I think we all need to go give Greg the chance to respond. My bet is he has multiple pieces of [digital interfacing] outboard gear he decided to clock with the 10MX instead of his primary converters.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
What made you decide to integrate a clock in your setup?

Last edited by Funny Cat; 21st December 2015 at 10:30 PM..
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