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Old 19th January 2007
  #31
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JonCraig's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexLakis View Post
I might leave that up to the player. I've worked with FTP players before who have some KILLER gear and know how to use it. thumbsup

I wouldn't let them put reverb on the snare or anything like that, tho. And for guitars/bass, an additional clean DI track is the way to go.
yep. if it's something tame, like a tasteful tremolo, etc... sure, go for it. i hate to put limitations on anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbone View Post
i use .MAC to send my file...you can downlod 1 GIG
everytime i've dealt with .mac accounts, they're PAINFULLY slow. like, drag it over and go to bed type slow.

--jon
Old 20th January 2007
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonCraig
yes, i agree. they are hired to do what you ask of them (within reason, of course... you wouldn't hire a drummer to clean our your gutters or anything ).

--jon

......."Well...not unless he could get off from his pizza delivery job(rimshot please)..."
Attached Files

badjoke1.mp3 (224.0 KB, 40 views)

Old 20th January 2007
  #33
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The dman's Avatar
 

If you guys use Firefox this in an interesting P2P extension http://www.allpeers.com/ that hooks up users directly to each other through a buddy type list. There are a few issues but the developer updates it pretty often. I just pulled in a 700 mb project yesterday with it.
Old 20th January 2007
  #34
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drBill's Avatar
FTP???? Ugh....

Well, aside from the fact that is takes the most joyus part of music out of the equation (the hang and the collaboration), it works just fine. That said, I've been producing music, arranging and engineering for close to 25 years. Thankfully, I get the frequent opportunity to work with some of the most gifted musicians in LA. To even think that I would let them play without my hands on input, listening to their part, more input, discussion, and the back and forth creative muse that yeilds true genius is......for me, unthinkable. Although they are truly gifted at what they do, they cannot get inside my head unless I'm there to share it with them. When I do, it inspires them to reach and dig further, that lights off a creative spark in me, I shoot back and idea and that yeids music that neither of us could have done on our own. Repeat - that neither of us would or could have done left to our own devices. To remove that part of the musical equation results in parts that are generally substandard IMO. It doesn't matter how talented the musician is. I've done it. It works OK. It's not what music is about. Now add to that that the musician also has to be "engineer", "producer", "arranger", and "studio musician" and you will know why it's not the best scenario. I'm not saying you can't get good parts and good sounds - you can. But not as good as if you did it the old fashioned way. Music, true music is created by feeding off each other's creative energy. Put a cable modem, hundreds of miles, and time between each other and you've killed the muse. Now, sometimes it's the only way due to monitary issues or locational logistics, but it's just not right IMO.

The reason thousands of kids are taking "recording engineering/producing" classes every year is because of the nostalgic memories of what music recording USED to be. FTP musicians/sessions are just one more nail in the coffin of what real musical collaboration is all about.

PS - iChat and the like adds at least an eliment of human collaboration, but it's still not like being in the room.........

Oh well, technology marches on. I can hardly wait until 20 or 30 years from now someone gets a genius idea to put 5 to 8 people in a room and let them feed on each others groove until "music" appears. What a concept. Until then, I need to get a T1 line. heh
Old 20th January 2007
  #35
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JonCraig's Avatar
 

and what of the guy in the middle of nowhere, who writes songs? he doesn't have the cash to shell out $3k per track for producer, engineer, big studio, and a room full of double scale players. his options are limited: sacrafice his ability to offer creative feedback in turn for getting a product (for, say, $700/track)... or don't get a recording of his song.

i absolutely agree that the *best* way to make a record involves a room full of guys and their creativity. technology, however, has made it possible for more people to realize a dream of hearing their song at a higher level. and perhaps more importantly, mr. a&r guy might, too.

--jon
Old 20th January 2007
  #36
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Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
But not as good as if you did it the old fashioned way. Music, true music is created by feeding off each other's creative energy. Put a cable modem, hundreds of miles, and time between each other and you've killed the muse. Now, sometimes it's the only way due to monitary issues or locational logistics, but it's just not right IMO.
"Such Great Heights" was done that way, right?

http://www.subpop.com/bands/postalservice/bio.php
Old 20th January 2007
  #37
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Eide's Avatar
 

Check out eSession. Many top names available thru this site. Do a search on here as well, lots of info on it.
Old 20th January 2007
  #38
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bigbone's Avatar
 

everytime i've dealt with .mac accounts, they're PAINFULLY slow. like, drag it over and go to bed type slow.

--jon[/QUOTE]


i agree ,so i use transmit,and with .MAC it fasten the files transfert
Old 20th January 2007
  #39
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boosh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexLakis View Post
I wouldn't let them put reverb on the snare or anything like that, tho. And for guitars/bass, an additional clean DI track is the way to go.

That's what I meant.
Old 20th January 2007
  #40
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JonCraig's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbone View Post
i agree ,so i use transmit,and with .MAC it fasten the files transfert
huh... well waddaya know? what kinds of upload speeds are you getting?

--jon
Old 20th January 2007
  #41
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tuRnitUpsuM's Avatar
 

good stuff here guys!


I've become a spectator...but am soaking up all the info.... and wanted to ty all for that...

i have to say.... i do agree whole-heartedly .... about the chemistry formed when you are face to face with the group or whatever the case may be.... but sometimes its just not possible....

question for those who are familiar with FTP sharing on both platforms... (hopefully not resulting in a platform war).... which do u find is easiest? being presently PC based.... i did manage to wrangle up alot more info in this respect for Macs. Which leads to the question i posed...

cheers again.....
Old 20th January 2007
  #42
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonCraig View Post
and what of the guy in the middle of nowhere, who writes songs?
Like I said, there's a time and place for it. But I wouldn't call it making art. There was a day not too long ago when even overdubbing one musician at a time was considered "unsatisfactory". Music is interactive. Put a group of talented guys in one room together and look out. There's a hundred posts on "how did they get that sound" in regards to classic records of the past - and the posters seem to be searching for something elusive and somehow they are completely missing the point. May I suggest that a huge part of the equation was having the musicians all together in the same room cutting the track "live"?? (You know, with real live bleed, not enough mics, and musical interaction.)

If that's what you want to do, go for it. Or (like many I see), if you have no clue what you want the musician to do, it's as good as being there. However, realizing something you hear in your head takes proximity to the musician. You're unlikely to get it via FTP. I think this is something that younger / inexperienced musicians think is OK cause they've never had the opportunity to make music like it should be made - with musicians! Together!!

No offense meant, but if your above songwriter has any talent, I'd suggest he/she save up and travel or move to a city where he can realilze his dream. If he doesn't have real talent (like the majority today), I'd suggest a day job. There's too little art and too much "wannabe" stuff out there right now due to the proliferation of disposable "pro" gear - and "pro" gear users.

Now, on to a truly useful tip. I suggest zipping or archiving your stereo .L and .R tracks. They can (and often do) get their resource forks messed up in translation on various servers, yeilding a problem at the worst possible moment.

Cheers,

bp
Old 20th January 2007
  #43
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emkay's Avatar
 

Sorry Dr. Bill

I may be new here and I certainly don't want to stir **** up but what do you mean by------------"Like I said, there's a time and place for it. But I wouldn't call it making art. If that's what you want to do, go for it."-------So are you calling the Ashlee Simpson, Avril lavigne , Britney Spears and the winners of American Idol projects who ALL record in "real studios" with "real producers" and some "real musicians".... art? Just want to define what your concept of art is.....and if I may be so bold to conjecture, I assume that "High end " gear would also have to be part of your equation in the creation of what you consider to be art?
Well, different strokes......variety is the spice of life, sometimes too much, sometimes way too little........peace?
Old 20th January 2007
  #44
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by emkay View Post
I may be new here and I certainly don't want to stir **** up but what do you mean by------------"Like I said, there's a time and place for it. But I wouldn't call it making art. If that's what you want to do, go for it."-------So are you calling the Ashlee Simpson, Avril lavigne , Britney Spears and the winners of American Idol projects who ALL record in "real studios" with "real producers" and some "real musicians".... art? Just want to define what your concept of art is.....and if I may be so bold to conjecture, I assume that "High end " gear would also have to be part of your equation in the creation of what you consider to be art?
Well, different strokes......variety is the spice of life, sometimes too much, sometimes way too little........peace?
emkay - stir on dude! heh heh

Some people can make art by themselves with no interaction with ANY other musicians, and you can have other projects with the best musicians in the world that are completely lifeless. Within the scope of this post as I saw it (ie: how to get other musicians to play on your songs via ftp), there is no substitution to using "live" musicians within eye and earshot to you as a producer. "Art" is in the ear of the beholder. I can only comment on what moves me. Being in a room with great musicians moves me. I know that's not possible for everyone, and I know the day is approaching faster and faster where that will be the exception rather than the rule. Perhaps it is already here.

As far as high end gear is concerned, I only think it has to be "high end" enough. If you had read any of my older posts you'd know that I place music above gear anytime, everytime. However really cheap gear can sometimes get in the way of communicating your artistic vision - much like a bad cell phone connection can mar an important conversation. I'm not a gear eletist. I have what many here would consider top notch vintage gear mixed with what others would gag if they were "forced" to use. They each have their place. There's tons of great sounding stuff out there to record with these days where you don't have to spend the two fortunes you used to have to spend to get quality product. I do not believe that gear is any longer a factor in getting your music out - now, it's talent and experience that are the limiting factors. As it should be.

But in the end, it all boils down to the music. I personally don't think there's thousands of people going to music school, engineering school, etc. so that they can ftp stuff to each other, devoid of all human interaction, and then mix in their computer in their bedrooms. Do you?
Old 20th January 2007
  #45
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JonCraig's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
I personally don't think there's thousands of people going to music school, engineering school, etc. so that they can ftp stuff to each other, devoid of all human interaction, and then mix in their computer in their bedrooms. Do you?
as a graduate of middle tenn state's recording program (4 year bachelor's), i can assure you that you're out of touch. one day when i'm all grown up, like you, i hope that all my projects are in a multi-million dollar facility, with a room full of players. until then, however, i'll do whatever the client and producer ask of me--ftp or no. and for you to dismiss it as anything other than art is ignorant, shortsighted, and foolish.

i'm honestly not trying to start anything else up, just pointing out that any approach that gets the desired result is valid. it's defining that result that determines the approach.

--jon
Old 20th January 2007
  #46
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GYMusic's Avatar
I've been doing remote Internet sesions for a number of years (since high speed whatever your definition of that is). I work with a number of songwrtiers and have been fortunate to attract several video clients to this way of working. It takes time for a producer to find his stable of usual suspects to call... someone who can deilver the goods. But when you can prove you can deliver the goods, you can build some long term clients and it's very lucrative.

When it's impossible to get that bass player to travel to do the session because Homeland Security has shut down all airports........

This is the future my friends!

Here's a friend's site. He's just gettin' it going. Goes right along with what we've been talking about.

http://www.projectstudioconnection.com/forums.php
Old 20th January 2007
  #47
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emkay's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
emkay - stir on dude! heh heh

Some people can make art by themselves with no interaction with ANY other musicians, and you can have other projects with the best musicians in the world that are completely lifeless. Within the scope of this post as I saw it (ie: how to get other musicians to play on your songs via ftp), there is no substitution to using "live" musicians within eye and earshot to you as a producer. "Art" is in the ear of the beholder. I can only comment on what moves me. Being in a room with great musicians moves me. I know that's not possible for everyone, and I know the day is approaching faster and faster where that will be the exception rather than the rule. Perhaps it is already here.

As far as high end gear is concerned, I only think it has to be "high end" enough. If you had read any of my older posts you'd know that I place music above gear anytime, everytime. However really cheap gear can sometimes get in the way of communicating your artistic vision - much like a bad cell phone connection can mar an important conversation. I'm not a gear eletist. I have what many here would consider top notch vintage gear mixed with what others would gag if they were "forced" to use. They each have their place. There's tons of great sounding stuff out there to record with these days where you don't have to spend the two fortunes you used to have to spend to get quality product. I do not believe that gear is any longer a factor in getting your music out - now, it's talent and experience that are the limiting factors. As it should be.

But in the end, it all boils down to the music. I personally don't think there's thousands of people going to music school, engineering school, etc. so that they can ftp stuff to each other, devoid of all human interaction, and then mix in their computer in their bedrooms. Do you?


Sorry if the thoughts and response are a little "fractured", but I'm blasting this one out in a hurry......
All your points well taken. I only question the "reality" of your "follow yopur dreams" scenario as the definitive sign of a "serious" artist. I moved to El-Ay many years ago in pursuit of my dreams and got pretty damn lucky! During my LA journey , I was surrounded by alot of "passengers" in the same boat who joined the cruise for the same reason----you know----the "dream" thing. Well when I got off at my destination, the others had to stay behind, because they didn't have "what it takes" to "land". I got on the next ship full of other hopefuls, and had to leave them behind at the next destination. .....on and on......The metaphor means that yes. you should be serious if you are going to get anywhere in any endeavour. BUT, be realistic. There's a big difference between being "delusional" and "dreaming". Alot of folks who "followed their dreams" woke up in the "nightmare" of being way out of their league and just not good enough!!In my many years of touring, I discovered some incredible "small town" talents who eclipsed alot of folks I knew here in LA. Some I invited to come and hang to help them out. As far as schools are concerned--also a good idea--but again, there has to be something there within the person to be nurtured by a great teacher. I have friends who taught at MI in LA, who sadly told me that most of the students weren't worth the time spent and that they had no reason for being at the school in the first place!! Kind of unfair of the school! I studied Architecture for awhile, and I'd have to say that alot of my fellow students should not have been there. Some graduated , I'm sure, to go on to be mediocre architects at best You can't "polish a turd", if you know what I mean. It's a fact that pretty well most of the greatest artists who ever lived NEVER set foot in a school---artists from all disciplines, Art, Architecture, Dance, Music, Literature.
Creativity and genius can't be taught, it can be nurtured, and it can thrive wherever the person blessed enough with the talent wants to pursue his art , be it a farm in Texas or a loft in SoHo!
Now--If you're talking about "making it" whatever that means, well, then yes. the "big city" holds the possible promise of "opportunity" and "money"..........

To be continued, if you want....gotta go work a bit.....peace?
Old 20th January 2007
  #48
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big country's Avatar
 

sounds good to my ears

Quote:
This is the future my friends!
Old 20th January 2007
  #49
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonCraig View Post
as a graduate of middle tenn state's recording program (4 year bachelor's), i can assure you that you're out of touch. one day when i'm all grown up, like you, i hope that all my projects are in a multi-million dollar facility, with a room full of players. until then, however, i'll do whatever the client and producer ask of me--ftp or no. and for you to dismiss it as anything other than art is ignorant, shortsighted, and foolish.

i'm honestly not trying to start anything else up, just pointing out that any approach that gets the desired result is valid. it's defining that result that determines the approach.

--jon
Jon, the mark of a professional is to accomplish whatever his client wants in the most expeditious way possible. Sounds like you're doing that. More power to ya! I'm afraid that by the time you grow up that there will be very few projects in multi-million dollar facilities with rooms full of players. Sad but true. The paradigm of how music is being made and recorded is changing faster than most of us can keep up. The fact that there is a closing of mid to large scale rooms in LA faster than I can keep up with it is true testament to that. Out of touch? You might be surpised. I'm not proporting that everyone HAS to record the way that I do. I just laid out my opinion on one of the reasons why I think music is degrading from what it used to be, and my opinion that ftp/internet recording hastens it. Without musical collaboration, a valued part of what I believe is true art dies.

Don't forget - one man's art is anothers joke. Art is in the eye of the beholder - and always will be. Someday, the young punks will be calling your method of ftp/internet production "old school" and you'll be schooling them on how much better it is than their method of making music. heh heh Ask Bruce Swedein if he prefers internet collaboration to musicians in the studio.

Just to be clear, whatever a producer asks you to do - if you do it as best as you can - I don't consider that to be foolish. Will it become "art" in 30 years? Will the music I'm making be art? Will people look back nostalgically on it like we do the Beatles or Zepplin? That's for the next generation to decide. All we can do now is to make it the best possible way we can within the means we have. That's what definies "professional" in my book.
Old 20th January 2007
  #50
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by emkay View Post
Creativity and genius can't be taught, it can be nurtured, and it can thrive wherever the person blessed enough with the talent wants to pursue his art , be it a farm in Texas or a loft in SoHo!
Never truer words spoken....I mean typed.

Old 20th January 2007
  #51
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henryrobinett's Avatar
Good posts. I certainly agree with the sentiments of Drbill. I could've written most of those lines myself. Yet I see the points of the "future." You certainly can't generalize about art. I personally think music is best made with people together, sharing the space, having eye contact and living in the same groove, in real time. That isn't always possible. I tihnk musi suffers for the lack of it, in general. I think great music can be made without it, but I think it's better with real human, real time interaction.

That said I've done FTP music, both as a guitarist and as an engineer. Both at the same time! It's fun. The pluses are the minuses, in some cases. I don't have anyone breathing down my neck, but I also don't have immediate feedback. I can do it at my leisire, for the most part, but sometimes that means it doesn't get done right away. I can use my own gear and not schlep it around, up/down stairs, all over town; but the client and head engineer/producer has less control over the actual sound. I don't have to take specific direction if I don't want to. I can play it the way I want AND the way he wants, on my dime if necessary.

But I think music is suffering from the increased isolation of cubicle musicians. DFHS, Battery, Kontakt, Guitar Rig2, Trilogy, all these VIs to give one the ability or illusion of being in the box alone, creating music of musicians either without musicians or the actuality of interacting with musicians. It's kind of a commentary of 21st Century life. Less real, interactive community, more looking at a box screen alone.
Old 20th January 2007
  #52
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bigbone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonCraig View Post
huh... well waddaya know? what kinds of upload speeds are you getting?

--jon
I don't know the upload speed with transmit, i just know that it's 4X faster at least.
Old 20th January 2007
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
PS - iChat and the like adds at least an eliment of human collaboration, but it's still not like being in the room.........
This type of technology has been making huge leaps these days. Of course it is extremely expensive at the moment, but here is a glimpse at video conferencing. Check out Cisco's Telepresence.

I'd love to use this for collaborating.

Shane
Old 21st January 2007
  #54
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
I personally think music is best made with people together, sharing the space, having eye contact and living in the same groove, in real time.
Henry, is it time for us to retire??? LOL We seem to be in the minority around here. I'm glad at least one person got my point. Now.......off to research T1 lines. heh heh heh heh
Old 21st January 2007
  #55
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JonCraig's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Jon, the mark of a professional is to accomplish whatever his client wants in the most expeditious way possible.
i agree wholeheartedly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Without musical collaboration, a valued part of what I believe is true art dies... Don't forget - one man's art is anothers joke. Art is in the eye of the beholder - and always will be.
i also agree with this--i think we got off on the wrong foot. i'm merely saying that it is possible to achieve a fantastic production (define that as "a product that blows the client away" or "is greater than the sum of its parts" or "****in' sweet") by using ftp, trading drives, etc. i think we're agreeing that it's possible, although more difficult via ftp, whatever, than if you had a room full of guys. if we agree that "art" is entirely subjective, then we can agree that the question of whether or not "art" can possibly happen over ftp/whatever is also subjective.

what i should have said earlier is that, while i'm one of the "pro tools kids", i learned the craft from "old school guys". i learned that nothing is better than a room full of guys, and i still believe it. hell, i've even done a couple of records on analog tape (and know the smell). plenty of guys my age think that punching involves cmd spacebar, and a crossfade heh. i'm not at all trying to place myself in the same league as you, or anyone with 20+ years more experience on me. i'm still learning how to be a better engineer, as i assume we all are.

in my boat, there's not much money to throw around, 'cause i'm not being thrown the big records (i just edit them after the fact ). at the level i'm at, ftp makes things possible that otherwise wouldn't be, and i'm all for that (and so are the clients i work with, and my checkbook).

this turned out much longer than i wanted. in summation, i think we're agreeing a lot, and i apologize if any of my previous posts came across as angered. i'm just a kid, after all heh heh heh

--jon

Last edited by JonCraig; 21st January 2007 at 04:45 AM.. Reason: typo schmypo
Old 21st January 2007
  #56
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popmann's Avatar
"Cubicle musicians"...!! I want a T-Shirt. That's great, Henry.

Quote:
Repeat - that neither of us would or could have done left to our own devices. To remove that part of the musical equation results in parts that are generally substandard IMO. It doesn't matter how talented the musician is...but it's just not right IMO.
Can I get a great big AMEN up in da house? Only together are we God.

I'm finishing up my first album done that way...while I'm a multiinstrumentalist, the drums were done over the internet, as well as some other tracks where I felt like, as a producer, I knew someone personally who's playing fit the track better. A piano here...organ there...steel guitar...some harmonies...anyway, point is, that the record sounds good. And it's 10 times the record for the collabs-even long distance.

At the same time, I did a stint a while back in a band...we were backing a singer/songwriter, but the jams we kicked out--drums, bas, and guitar while they were on a smoke break or working out harmonies? THAT was the stuff. Little moments of the magic. And had they turned THAT loose on their songs rather than the "play it like it is on the record"...well, anyway...suffice to say, next collection of tunes I write, I'm calling some guys into a small/medium studio and bashing out the basics in a week. Take'em home and finish.
Old 21st January 2007
  #57
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonCraig View Post
i've even done a couple of records on analog tape (and know the smell).
heh heh ALRIGHT JON!!! Cool! As long as you know the smell, you're IN!

Just don't forget true musical collaboration rules. Hands down. Some of us have a few years perspective under our belts that makes us a little jaded about where we see things headed musically these days. Don't shoot us for caring and wanting the ultimate in our creative muse.
Old 21st January 2007
  #58
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djui5's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GYMusic View Post
This is the future my friends!

Yes it is and I have a great idea, just need some investors to fund it
Old 21st January 2007
  #59
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cajonezzz's Avatar
 

I'm really dialing in my workflow with the FTP thing---

My favorite part of the whole deal is working with a few guitarist's that I have history with, but we're not in the same town any more---- Getting tracks back from them is always like xmas morning. i see the wave forms appear,and push play and it's always fun to hear their take on rev.1. These guys I trust to let them "do their thing" and while at times I have to go back and hone parts via ichat, or on the phone, for the most part it's a pleasant surprise.

I'm going to be really happy when Digidelivery is up and running at the mothership studio I'm doing my drum tracking at-- I think that's going to streamline things a bit more.
Old 21st January 2007
  #60
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The dman's Avatar
 

I understand what you guys are saying about person to person contact, that is always better but this is what I'm talking about:

Quote:
My favorite part of the whole deal is working with a few guitarist's that I have history with, but we're not in the same town any more---- Getting tracks back from them is always like xmas morning. i see the wave forms appear,and push play and it's always fun to hear their take on rev.1. These guys I trust to let them "do their thing" and while at times I have to go back and hone parts via ichat, or on the phone, for the most part it's a pleasant surprise.
Working with people you trust. With some initial direction and good communication a competent musician should be able to lay down some great tracks. Let's step out of the cubicle studio,mbox kid stereotype for a second and imagine:

1.Johhny Q is a talented singer songwriter from the middle of nowhere with some really good songs and some good acoustic/vocal recordings of his songs. He wants to present the songs to publishers but would like to have additional tracks put to some of his arrangements but would rather go with the real thing as opposed to samples and loops which he has. Johnny finds a producer /musician online he's comfortable with and hires him to build his tracks. Johnny gets his tracks and the musician/producer gets work.

2. Let's say I record a country song for a band or songwriter that wants pedal steel but their are not many good pedal steel players in my area. I as producer suggest Tommy, a pedal steel player that I've worked with online before and has consistently layed down excellent tracks for me. After some direction Tommy lays down 4 different tracks with different variations and the uploads them back to me and we decide if we have enough or if we want him to take a different approach. Client gets his pedal steel Tommy gets some work. What is so wrong about this?



Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Without musical collaboration, a valued part of what I believe is true art dies... Don't forget - one man's art is anothers joke. Art is in the eye of the beholder - and always will be
I respect your point but to me autotuning,sample replacing,and snapping to the grid do music far more disservice than what we're talking about. Yet this is the accepted practice of many engineers as a matter of fact is a standard in many genres. So if you have all this "human collaboration" being sliced and diced. At what point is it real anymore?
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