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The Genetic Code For Tape Has Been Conquered!!! (AnaMod)
Old 23rd January 2007
  #91
TRW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 84K View Post
Very good post Tom! Great questions....I don'think they are willing to reveal the secrets to this "new" way of doing analog. I don't know exactly, in fact, I haven't seen or heard it yet. So, we will see....Greg knows his stuff, so I trust it will be amazing. I have not heard him this excited since he made the Quartet.
Cheers 84K

I don't doubt the products pedigree (at least Gregs part not sure about the bumfactory lineage!). Pendulum gear has been high on my to get list for a while.
I just think we should all ask a few more questions before we jump around like excited little girls!

The way I guess it, they have lots of little plugin modules - each one an analogue building block - noise generation, harmonic distortion, soft knee compression, hf bias, record and repro electronics. Each card is variable between a few responses say...

Inserting a digital non-volatile stored model recalls/adjusts the performance of these little modules to generate 'tape' like artefacts.
The degree of which is controlled by the knobs on the front panel.

I realise they won't give away their secrets but I would like to know a little more....and I think thats within reason considering the bold claims. I mean doesn't the Fatso achieve a similar idea without using anything but digitally controlled analogue??

At least the Neve has magnetic devices in the path....hmmm thinking about it maybe the AnaMod has that too, a transformer module which can have its distortion changed with DC on the core??

Hmmmmmm looking forward to hearing how it goes anyway.


-Tom
Old 23rd January 2007
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRW View Post
Cheers 84K

I don't doubt the products pedigree (at least Gregs part not sure about the bumfactory lineage!). Pendulum gear has been high on my to get list for a while.
I just think we should all ask a few more questions before we jump around like excited little girls!

<img src="http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h176/chriscasso/drinking.gif"> LOL. All true points. I have been a pendulum uder since 1998. I have a long history with their gear and I have watched all of their products from the beginning. I have never been dissapointed. So, based on the history, I feel comfortable assuming... but I will be the first to admit it if I am wrong. <img src="http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h176/chriscasso/boltqe5.gif">

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRW View Post
The way I guess it, they have lots of little plugin modules - each one an analogue building block - noise generation, harmonic distortion, soft knee compression, hf bias, record and repro electronics. Each card is variable between a few responses say...

Inserting a digital non-volatile stored model recalls/adjusts the performance of these little modules to generate 'tape' like artefacts.
The degree of which is controlled by the knobs on the front panel.

I realise they won't give away their secrets but I would like to know a little more....and I think thats within reason considering the bold claims. I mean doesn't the Fatso achieve a similar idea without using anything but digitally controlled analogue??
I agree. I am looking forward to putting it up against: the HEDD 192, FATSO, PORTICO, and my Studer 827A. I will not buy it and sing its praises without putting it through the ringer. I am very selective with my gear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRW View Post
At least the Neve has magnetic devices in the path....hmmm thinking about it maybe the AnaMod has that too, a transformer module which can have its distortion changed with DC on the core??

Hmmmmmm looking forward to hearing how it goes anyway.


-Tom
I doubt they can fit a trannie on the simm cards, but a good idea. I have no idea what they are doing to achieve the sound. Greg told me it is something completely new. Hell, I stress, I don't even know what it sounds like yet. We will see. A few more weeks and I should know... <img src="http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h176/chriscasso/bangheadgo9.gif">
Old 23rd January 2007
  #93
TRW
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Heh simm cards are the digital bit no? memory for settings?

Or am I mistaken and there are analogue plugin cards that slot in the back?

In a 2u theres plenty of room for a transformer....

-T
Old 23rd January 2007
  #94
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worm's Avatar
 

cant wait to hear some a/b demos

as an ITB kind guy ive played with the idea of havin a 2 track to bounce down to but it sounds like so much hassle with all the maintenance.
Old 23rd January 2007
  #95
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i dont want to listen to any upcoming a/bs. if i like it i still wont be able to purchase it! tutt heh
Old 23rd January 2007
  #96
Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new View Post
This is a big ol can of worms I am about to dump on this thread.... but ... you asked....

heh

A couple of years back, maybe even longer, there was a thread around here where a pretty solid member of Gearslutz, Jay K. I believe, posted 2 mixes of a song. The details are a little fuzzy but one mix might have been on 1/2" and the other back into his DAW with a quality converter... might have been Lavry Blue. The ATR was a good unit as well if I remember correctly.

The point is the hardware was all good "pro" stuff.

If I have it right I believe he said he could not tell much of a difference at all, it was so close that the digital mix was a no brainer. I think he posted clips (this was years ago, can't even find the thread now) and I think the general consensus after the blind test was that the digital version was great and there was little point to the ATR mix.

Now this is all up to debate but I think that "tape" is more important over larger groups of tracks at the beginning of the process. I have started projects on 2 inch and then moved to ADAT and these projects came out great...I seriously doubt moving in the other direction would have had the same effect. YMMV
You know I do sometimes mix projects from pro tools tracked with lavry blue to my studer a80.

When I listen to the output of the daw into the lavry blues , the mix on analog tape ,
and the return from the tape into PT thru lavry blue,not suprisingly all 3 sound different.
Each emphasizes different qualities.
Nothing sounds like the tape the wieght and glue .
when i go back in to PT thru the lavrys and monitor thru the da I hear
certain compression charecteristics and saturation /harmonics of the tape
But it just sounds different, it is not exactly the same to me this says more about digital recording to me then anything.
The original digital mix sounds great tracked with good outboard gear.
it is what it is .

So I would agree the consensus Ive heard is that if you track with analog
your adding up harmonics/saturation which adds up good stuff!
however going to tape after tracking digital has really given something nice to
some tracks /records.
Of course each one of us is the judge , does it work?

all that said tracking with the anamod would seem logical.
and people with good ears are saying it was good on headphones on a noisy floor.
And when some of us get to hear it with our set-up we'll get more
of an idea of whats going on.
Still all things sound different cause they are different things!
(thats almost a Yogi Berra and I'am serious!
Old 23rd January 2007
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggedy View Post
So, if and when you buy one, does it come loaded with the cards of your choice, or do you pay extra for those? And then can you buy new cards as they become available, and just swap 'em yourself?
I beleive it comes with two cards already. theyre are workign on designing the other cards right now.

I think it holds four and four (tape and machine)
Old 23rd January 2007
  #98
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84K's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRW View Post
Heh simm cards are the digital bit no? memory for settings?

Or am I mistaken and there are analogue plugin cards that slot in the back?

In a 2u theres plenty of room for a transformer....

-T
Hopefully I will have the answers to all of our questions soon. I know Greg and Dave are very busy making sure the initial release goes perfect as planned. I think it will be around 2-3 weeks until I see it person.
Old 26th January 2007
  #99
Gear Nut
 

As a user of Pheonix, AC1/2, and Massey's tape plugin....I was shocked at how unimpressive the Anamod seemed at Namm. Although it wasn't easy to get a good listen with such surrounding noise issues, so I could be wrong. To contrast, Digi's tape plugin didn't seem half bad to my ears...Furthermore, The Mastering Edition Culture Vulture happened to be right next door to the Anamod piece and I soon found myself happily tweaking away on that lovely piece of gear heaven.
Old 26th January 2007
  #100
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Quote:
The plugin is not as exciting to me because of the obvious reasons...

The analog version has NO delay so you can use it while tracking. VERY IMPORTANT!!! Reasons:

You are hitting the tape formulation before any converters so it is that much more like real tape.

You can get a more natural saturation by hitting the box before your DAW because it should soften the peaks, allowing you to hit the converter harder. Tape adds that variable dynamics control.

To REALLY emulate tape you have to hit the tape emulation at the same stage in the signal chain as you would hit real tape in the alternative situation.

The reasons I listed above are why plugins like the DUY Tape was a noble idea, but it lost me.
I don't agree with this philosophy, If i understood your post you said the benefit of tracking with it is that you soft the peaks and are then able to hit the converter harder.

With a nice ADC as long as you record in 24bits there is no reason to hit the ADC harder. Also if you track with it, your stuck with that much tone. The benefit of the plugin (assuming both sound the same) is that you can add some tape tone and if it isnt enough add more (or vice versa). I would just insert it as my first plugin, it would then soften the peaks and I would go from there.

To me the only benefit of tracking with a box (this or any other box) over a plugin is quality of the sound. But if box and plugin sounded the same to me the plugin wins hands down.
Old 26th January 2007
  #101
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84K's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Fak View Post
I don't agree with this philosophy, If i understood your post you said the benefit of tracking with it is that you soft the peaks and are then able to hit the converter harder. With a nice ADC as long as you record in 24bits there is no reason to hit the ADC harder.
The better converters sound better when hit harder... but not distorted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Fak View Post
Also if you track with it, your stuck with that much tone. The benefit of the plugin (assuming both sound the same) is that you can add some tape tone and if it isnt enough add more (or vice versa). I would just insert it as my first plugin, it would then soften the peaks and I would go from there.
To each his own. I like to get it as close going in as I can. I am very used to recording, and I never find myself wishing I didn't use something later. (No Offense but) Do it right going in, that is always better. I'd rather be married to my 'better' recorded track (that is assuming the box sounds good on whatever recording I am figuratively referencing ).


Quote:
Originally Posted by A Fak View Post
To me the only benefit of tracking with a box (this or any other box) over a plugin is quality of the sound. But if box and plugin sounded the same to me the plugin wins hands down.
I have never heard any hardware analog box that sounds the same as the plugin. I am not saying plugins suck or anything like that at all, they just never sound the same.
I don't use many plugins other than reverb and delay for vibe reference while tracking. I occasionally do mixes in Pro Tools and I use plugins at that time.

Take the simplest definition of what you are buying. TAPE EMULATION. You are trying to emulate the effects tape has on the audio you record. ala Simulation.

If you are simulating recording to tape, then where in ther chain would you hit the tape?

Mic-> Mic Pre -> EQ, Compressor, whatever, -> TAPE -> then maybe you would go to a DAW.

That would be the way it would be if you were tracking with the real thing, right? Well, the only way to emulate that correctly is to do it in that order, which would require the hardware.

Imagine simulating a Fairchild compressor and putting it first in the chain right after the mic and before the mic pre. Wouldn't really do what you want, would it? To emulate anything, you must follow some rule of order for it to be..... emulated. But hey, that is just what make sense to me.
Old 26th January 2007
  #102
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BradM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 84K View Post
The better converters sound better when hit harder... but not distorted.
I've never heard that theory before. Which converters are you referring to? I wonder if we could get a converter designer to confirm or deny that statement.

Brad
Old 26th January 2007
  #103
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A Fak's Avatar
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 84K View Post
The better converters sound better when hit harder... but not distorted.
I've never heard that theory before. Which converters are you referring to? I wonder if we could get a converter designer to confirm or deny that statement.
I never heard it either but if thats true then never mind i was wrong . My question would be are the ADC sounding better or is it the extra comp\saturation that your liking?


Quote:
I have never heard any hardware analog box that sounds the same as the plugin. I am not saying plugins suck or anything like that at all, they just never sound the same.
I don't use many plugins other than reverb and delay for vibe reference while tracking. I occasionally do mixes in Pro Tools and I use plugins at that time.
I'm not saying they do. I just didn't understand the philosophy behind the whole converter thing (if all equipment were equal). I can definitely see going OTB for the sound of the equipment just not for the benefit of the ADC.

Quote:
If you are simulating recording to tape, then where in ther chain would you hit the tape?

Mic-> Mic Pre -> EQ, Compressor, whatever, -> TAPE -> then maybe you would go to a DAW.

That would be the way it would be if you were tracking with the real thing, right? Well, the only way to emulate that correctly is to do it in that order, which would require the hardware.
I usually track Mic -> Mic Pre -> slight comp -> ADC

If I needed to add more Comp or some EQ id do it after the ADC. So i would add the tape plugin after the ADC.

Quote:
Imagine simulating a Fairchild compressor and putting it first in the chain right after the mic and before the mic pre. Wouldn't really do what you want, would it?
I was just thinking about that. Thats the only chain you cant copy ITB. Your chain must start Mic -> Mic Pre
Old 26th January 2007
  #104
Gear Maniac
 

I must say that with Bumfactory "expertise" behind it I am sure it will sound nothing like tape.. dfegad

No people, the REAL revolution is in Nebula from Acustica (www.acusticaudio.com) From what I've heard buzzing around, their presets of tape are really astonishing. Try out the free version and some of the presets and you get an idea about how serious this is. I'm no affiliate in whatever way. Oh and the cost ? a fraction of the Anamod : 20 - 80 Euro !!!!!!!!!!!
Old 26th January 2007
  #105
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Have u heard the anamod?

Your comment is not substantial enough since you haven't heard how it sounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BorrelNote View Post
I must say that with Bumfactory "expertise" behind it I am sure it will sound nothing like tape.. dfegad

No people, the REAL revolution is in Nebula from Acustica (www.acusticaudio.com) From what I've heard buzzing around, their presets of tape are really astonishing. Try out the free version and some of the presets and you get an idea about how serious this is. I'm no affiliate in whatever way. Oh and the cost ? a fraction of the Anamod : 20 - 80 Euro !!!!!!!!!!!
Old 26th January 2007
  #106
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Bob Yordan's Avatar
I am from the future and travelled back in time, and I have never heard of it?

heh

Old 27th January 2007
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 84K View Post
The better converters sound better when hit harder... but not distorted.
Okay ... this is nonsense. The better converters should sound basically the same at least through the last eight bits of resolution Most people would have trouble distinguishing a 24-bit recording from a 20-bit recording, especially with dithering. The advantage of 24-bit recording is essentially that you get full 20-bit resolution with 24 db (4 bits) left over for transients and other peaks, rather than only full-16 with the same 24 db left over. It allows you to be totally risk-averse on the digital overs without sacrificing sound quality. Outside of gain structure flexibility, nobody actually needs more than 120 db of dynamic range, which few if any other components can caputure anyway.

That said ... I agree with the idea that tape emulation ideally would come before the ADC stage, mainly because any tape emulation is going to involve some manner of compression, and any compression ideally would happen pre-ADC, in terms of what's sonically ideal. Of course this is not an absolute, and very far from a requirement, but I do think it's preferrable as long as you're ready to commit to a sound.

JSL
Old 27th January 2007
  #108
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Berolzheimer's Avatar
 

I think this unit is missing just one thing- a mix knob. Of course it's possible that it messes with the phase in a way that wouldn't sound good recombined with the unprocessed signal, but if not a mix knob would be great, and probably pretty easy & inexpensive to implement.
Old 27th January 2007
  #109
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Raggedy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jslevin View Post
Okay ... this is nonsense. The better converters should sound basically the same at least through the last eight bits of resolution

JSL
I don't think anyone arguing about the dynamic range of 24-bits... but these converters DO have an analog side, and some people like to hit them harder, just like they like to saturate the front end of their mic pre... that's where the difference lies.

And, back on topic, I have to say that this thing is intriguing me more and more. Of the negative comments, only one was from someone who actually heard the thing. And of the people that heard it, only the one seemed skeptical. Some knowledgeable folks with ears I trust have been giving the thumbs-up.

Can't wait to hear it. And I refuse to discount it just because I assume it won't sound exactly like an old tape machine. C'mon, nobody thinks the FATSO sounds just like tape (despite the name), or that the Distressor sounds just like an 1176 or an LA-2A. I'd even guess that Dave Derr doesn't think so. But it's good for marketing... creates a buzz and drums up interest. The Empirical Labs pieces have carved out their own respectable identities as people have discovered that they're perfectly fine boxes on their own merit, and I'm guessing this one will do the same.

If it's unique, gets people closer to the sound they're looking for, and especially if it takes people into new and tasty sonic territory, it will do just fine. And if you ask the designers, I'm sure they'd never tell you that they think it'll replace your 24-track Studer, track-for-track and tone-for-tone.
Old 27th January 2007
  #110
For pretty much everyone I spoke to - it was the hit of the show

My quick assesment on the NAMM show floor.

Of all the tape simulators, (and I have heard a lot and own 3 - Fatso, Hedd, Pheonix) - this had the best ever 'micro grainy' slivery cymbal shimer "tape thing" going on... (like you get with 3m or Studer) That's the best attempt to describe what I heard in headphones... I wasnt able to judge its effect on bottom end)

Old 27th January 2007
  #111
Gear Maniac
 

I'm looking forward to trying one out. As a huge fan of tape, even if it gets within 80% of the tone I'd be happy. For all those that are dissing it, tell me where I can pick up a J-37, set up to use 4 different formulations of hard to find tape for 3 grand and I'll buy it! Seriously though as tape machines are becoming harder and harder to find and maintain I think this product will fill a niche in smaller studios looking for that vintage vibe and big tone of tape.

Years ago I had a very interesting conversation with an old timer about the sonic and physical properties of tape. The one thing I that's stuck with with me all these years later is how he found it so funny that all these people were dissing digital recording based on the fact that sound was converted to digits... ones and zero's, circles and ones. He told me that tape in actuality behaved very similar to the way an audio signal was converted and stored on digital media. Something to do with the magnetic particles on tape being charged with both negative and positive electrons. And that if you could magnify the tape itself you would visually see a pattern that looked very similar to those old punch cards used with early computers, in essence a pattern that could essentially be coded. It's responses could then be copied and reproduced, much like our cut and paste techniques used in modern daws. He was surprised that no one had realized this, other than maybe only himself, and applied the concept to signal processing.

This conversation was the first thing I thought of when I saw this thread. I have a good feeling that the inventors of the ana-mod figured this out and that this product may be right on the money for us tape freaks. Lets hope it is!
Old 28th January 2007
  #112
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84K's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jslevin View Post
Okay ... this is nonsense. The better converters should sound basically the same at least through the last eight bits of resolution Most people would have trouble distinguishing a 24-bit recording from a 20-bit recording, especially with dithering. The advantage of 24-bit recording is essentially that you get full 20-bit resolution with 24 db (4 bits) left over for transients and other peaks, rather than only full-16 with the same 24 db left over. It allows you to be totally risk-averse on the digital overs without sacrificing sound quality. Outside of gain structure flexibility, nobody actually needs more than 120 db of dynamic range, which few if any other components can caputure anyway.
What you are saying depends on your calibration. When was the last time you checked it? How do you know what you are getting out of your converters?
I am not going to respond to everyone about the converter statement, try it yourself. Agree, disagree, or agree to disagree. That is not the point of this thread. Although, science and my ears are on my side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jslevin View Post
That said ... I agree with the idea that tape emulation ideally would come before the ADC stage, mainly because any tape emulation is going to involve some manner of compression, and any compression ideally would happen pre-ADC, in terms of what's sonically ideal. Of course this is not an absolute, and very far from a requirement, but I do think it's preferrable as long as you're ready to commit to a sound.

JSL
That is my biggest problems with the age of recording we are in. No one wants to commit to anything anymore. Sh!t. Doesn't anyone have any confidence in their engineering skills? (No offense, but...) Start commiting to things, learn from your errors, and soon enough you may start making great sounding records that don't need plugins to finish the job that should have been done in tracking. I am so sick of seeing sessions with 3 plugins on every channel. It is one thing if you do not have enough outboard, OK, I understand, but a lot of people have gear available to them, but are scared to commit. It's very strange to me. If it sounds good, use it. If not, don't. Why is that so hard for people to deal with? Trust your ears.
Old 28th January 2007
  #113
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84K's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Mystic View Post
I'm looking forward to trying one out. As a huge fan of tape, even if it gets within 80% of the tone I'd be happy. For all those that are dissing it, tell me where I can pick up a J-37, set up to use 4 different formulations of hard to find tape for 3 grand and I'll buy it! Seriously though as tape machines are becoming harder and harder to find and maintain I think this product will fill a niche in smaller studios looking for that vintage vibe and big tone of tape.
well said

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Mystic View Post
Lets hope it is!
<img src="http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h176/chriscasso/worthy.gif">
Old 29th January 2007
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggedy View Post
I don't think anyone arguing about the dynamic range of 24-bits... but these converters DO have an analog side, and some people like to hit them harder, just like they like to saturate the front end of their mic pre... that's where the difference lies.
Are you serious? It seems like you must be joking. I know some people "like to" hit converters hard. Those people are stuck in a bad habit, carried over from using systems with a much higher noise floor and (possibly) that were more forgiving of clipping. That is, it used to be a good habit, but now it's just dumb.

There is no sonic reason to "hit" the analog stage of any decent quality converter "hard." Especially considering that aside from a small calibration range, there are no attenuators on any standalone converters I've ever used.

JSL
Old 29th January 2007
  #115
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jslevin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 84K View Post
What you are saying depends on your calibration.
No, not really.

Quote:
Although, science and my ears are on my side.
No, not really.

Quote:
That is my biggest problems with the age of recording we are in. No one wants to commit to anything anymore.
That I agree with.

Quote:
a lot of people have gear available to them, but are scared to commit. It's very strange to me. If it sounds good, use it. If not, don't. Why is that so hard for people to deal with?
I often wonder that myself. Being afraid to commit, you do yourself, the artist, and any future artist you work with a disservice. All great art is in making choices.

JSL
Old 29th January 2007
  #116
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Say...aren't Behringers "emulations" of other products? So if you think that the 1176 plug ins etc. are OK as emulations...why bag on behringer stuff?...Oh I know why...because the plug-ins have fancy names and GUI's tied to them like an La-2a plug in or Neve 1073 plug in...and because the analog gear is so cool...by name alone we lift up these plug-ins high into the air.
I can't believe the guy that posted for us to take away the name of the items they are emulating and let them stand as there own pieces...christ do that and a Bombfactory, etc. (no famous model name attached) is shareware.
As for this analog magic box, I don't care who I offend here. The whole idea is BULLSH!T What are you going to use this item in front of? Your protools rig? Your studer 1/2"? Give me a break...I think it says something when every piece of ITB software/add ons try to reproduce the sound of analog gear...you know what that tells me....get out of the box.

Aaron Householter
www.studio1117.us
Old 29th January 2007
  #117
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84K's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jslevin View Post
No, not really.



No, not really.



That I agree with.



I often wonder that myself. Being afraid to commit, you do yourself, the artist, and any future artist you work with a disservice. All great art is in making choices.

JSL
Do your homework heh and then Get back to me.

I agree with your comments about committing. Being able to get it right on the spot and doing so quickly is part of being a pro.
Old 31st January 2007
  #118
Gear Nut
 
ted demen's Avatar
 

i have personally never recorded with 1/2" tape (im just a musician using a native daw) so i realize this question maybe simplistic and/or uninformed.....

but do engineers ever just route their signals through the circuitry of an old tape machine? (without actually using any tape)

cause if yes, then it seems to me that this is what this focusrite-platinum-series-look-alike box is capable of.... mimicking the analogue-stage-circutry of a tape machine.... but as far as mimicking actual tape sound...
i guess that might be another story....

ofcourse pre-deciding to like or dislike this unit before hearing it in a proper environment seems rather amateur to me.

give it the benfit of the doubt before u slam it.
and dont promote/approve it until u hear it (in a studio) either
Old 31st January 2007
  #119
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zaphod's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 84K View Post
The plugin is not as exciting to me because of the obvious reasons...

The analog version has NO delay so you can use it while tracking. VERY IMPORTANT!!!
not true imho. A plug-in is perfectly synchronized when delay-compensated by the host. Hardware has always a small delay. It's really small (1 millisecond or less), but noticeable.
Old 31st January 2007
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaphod View Post
not true imho. A plug-in is perfectly synchronized when delay-compensated by the host. Hardware has always a small delay. It's really small (1 millisecond or less), but noticeable.
You are wrong about this. Analog hardware has no delay between in and out. At least not relevant delay to audio. Electricity travels with speed of light.

Also delay compensation do not matter when you record real time and you want to monitor the processed track you are recording.
Add up AD converssion delay, plugin delay, DA converssion delay, and you already have some miliseconds that will affect the timing of the musician you record (especially rhythm section)

chrissugar
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