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Pro Tools LE, how do you deal with no ADC
Old 8th February 2007
  #61
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madcowvt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolskid View Post
that is not always the case, several RTAS plugins do NOT give the same latency when bypassed!
I will check tonight but I use rcomp for comp on the drum bus. I have never checked since it sounded ok.

I can see how this is a huge topic comparing LE to HD. Most will confirm that HD sounds more open and things are tighter with ADC.

It would be cool if someone took the time to do a mix with the exact same plugs and settings on LE and HD to compare. Maybe a 1 minute clip of each. If I had HD I would :-)

Any takers out there? Just for curiosity sake...
Old 8th February 2007
  #62
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jdawgg's Avatar
 

yeah that would be cool..

I was wondering - does this affect tracks not recorded at the same time, ie. overdubs? Would you be able to hear 64 or 128 samples of delay? Or is it the cumulative effect of this over many track when it comes to mix?
Old 8th February 2007
  #63
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacko View Post
So why the manual says that in Pro Tools LE Automatic Delay Compensation is always on and there is no option to turn it off?
Because of the hardware buffer, plugin delay isn't a problem like it is in HD. HD has no hardware buffer, so instead ADC needs to be run. Thats also why the other guy said he noticed a HUGE difference when switching between ADC and no ADC....some plugins are going to delay your signal.......however, with a hardware buffer, you computer says "ok i need to figure out when everything starts..." basically and includes figuring out how plugins effect the audio delay. The benefit is no delay caused by plugins (unless the delay is over 1024 samples or the set hardware buffer size), yet you get latency with your system. Give and Take
Old 8th February 2007
  #64
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Brandon Weaver's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by basskater87 View Post
The benefit is no delay caused by plugins (unless the delay is over 1024 samples or the set hardware buffer size), yet you get latency with your system. Give and Take
This is not true at all. I think that's already been pointed out in this thread. The very next sentence (atfer "...the mixing architecture in these systems is such that all internal routing and plug-in connection delays need no compensation.") in the white paper from Digi that madcowvt posted, states, "The place where latencies can become an issue with host-based Pro Tools systems is with plug-ins or external processors that have processing latency in their algorithms."

What's being confused here is "plugin connections" vs "plugins." Plugin routing does not need to be compensated for in LE because of the buffer, but if a plugin has latency in its algorithm this is not compensated for. The problems that arise from latency in plugin algorithms is what is primarily being discussed in this thread. These problems certainly occur with plugin algorithm delays under 1024 samples (or whatever your buffer is set to).
Old 8th February 2007
  #65
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JohnnyTooLoud's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ale8one2 View Post
This is not true at all. I think that's already been pointed out in this thread. The very next sentence (atfer "...the mixing architecture in these systems is such that all internal routing and plug-in connection delays need no compensation.") in the white paper from Digi that madcowvt posted, states, "The place where latencies can become an issue with host-based Pro Tools systems is with plug-ins or external processors that have processing latency in their algorithms."

What's being confused here is "plugin connections" vs "plugins." Plugin routing does not need to be compensated for in LE because of the buffer, but if a plugin has latency in its algorithm this is not compensated for. The problems that arise from latency in plugin algorithms is what is primarily being discussed in this thread. These problems certainly occur with plugin algorithm delays under 1024 samples (or whatever your buffer is set to).
Well said and I agree.

--Giovanni
Old 21st March 2008
  #66
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Kadden Heart's Avatar
 

AGH
im getting fried here,..

can somebody explain like,..if my vintage warmer is causing a lot of delay, how should i go about fixing that?

the time adjuster plug in pt? that doesn't seem to work for me...
if there a way to use "spot" mode ot move it forward?

an help would be great.
Old 21st March 2008
  #67
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stagefright13's Avatar
 

Just print this chart laminate it and keep it handy. Solves all my problems...
Pro Tools LE Latency Chart - Mixing with Analog Gear

It is a good explanation of the easy work arounds...

I generally use mostly hardware when mixing and some light use of plugins.
Old 21st March 2008
  #68
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norman_nomad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadden Heart View Post
AGH
im getting fried here,..

can somebody explain like,..if my vintage warmer is causing a lot of delay, how should i go about fixing that?

the time adjuster plug in pt? that doesn't seem to work for me...
if there a way to use "spot" mode ot move it forward?

an help would be great.
You have to either:

A: move your VM audio track backwards (in time) to compensate for the delay
B: move ALL of the other tracks forward (in time) with the time adjuster plug to have it line up with the VM track.
Old 21st March 2008
  #69
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Kadden Heart's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by norman_nomad View Post
You have to either:

A: move your VM audio track backwards (in time) to compensate for the delay
B: move ALL of the other tracks forward (in time) with the time adjuster plug to have it line up with the VM track.
move them backwards?
so the delays is actually making the track EARLIER than the others? i thought it would be making it later. maybe that's why when i used the time adjuster i thought it was moving it u and it was makign everything too early.
hm,..
Old 22nd March 2008
  #70
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norman_nomad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadden Heart View Post
move them backwards?
so the delays is actually making the track EARLIER than the others? i thought it would be making it later. maybe that's why when i used the time adjuster i thought it was moving it u and it was makign everything too early.
hm,..
Well... maybe this a problem with terminology.

When I say "backward" i mean nudge the track toward the left which makes it earlier in time.

The plug is delaying the audio on the track and making it play back later. So when the track is nudged to the left the proper sample amount it will play back in time relative to the rest of your audio (given that there aren't plugs on those tracks).

Each time you add a plug you need to calculate the latency, nudge the track and see that it agrees with the latency of the other tracks.

I don't know if the time adjust plug allows you to set negative timing increments. I know, for example, the UAD time adjust plug will only delay tracks. You use it to put non-plugin tracks in sync with plug-in tracks.... if that makes sense.
Old 22nd March 2008
  #71
Quote:
Originally Posted by norman_nomad View Post
I don't know if the time adjust plug allows you to set negative timing increments.
It doesn't.

The only plug in that does that is the Eventide Precision Time Align.

(Of course its a TDM plug in and won't work in LE but that's another story...)
Old 24th March 2008
  #72
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jammybastard's Avatar
 

I finally ran into an ADC issue last night while mixing a session ITB on PTLE (Digi002R)
Specifically a guitar track that need a couple of plugs.
The player wasn't wasn't exactly "on" to begin with, sort of a Stones feel, but with the 3 plugs in it went waaaay out of time.
As someone said in a previous post, it because "smeary".

Ispent the next hour tracking down the cause while alt-tabbing out to this thread and a few others on here about this subject.
So a big thank you to EVERYONE who has posted, especially the relevant links, on this subject. It was a big help.

BTW - For kicks I'm going to try to build the same session in Reaper and see what happens.
Old 25th March 2008
  #73
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It would be nice if us PTLE users had some kind of database that told us the sample delay of all those plugins out there!

Mike
Old 25th March 2008
  #74
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Kadden Heart's Avatar
 

good lord,..
it's still doing it with the time adjuster plugin.

when i insert the time adjuster plugin,.. i set the "samples" to whatever the dialog box at the bottom of the track shows it as
i.e 2175 (vintage warmer2) but after adding that time adjuster it shows the delay as being twice as much?

am i missing something?
i tohught the time adjuster plugin under the "delay" plugin would move the track earlier in time to then match however many samples the plugin made it.

this is rather important to me as i jut ordered my liquid mix and planned on having two busses one "with liquid mix" and one "without" the one with would have a time adjuster plug to compensate for the delay,..

an idea on what i'm doing wrong here?
Old 25th March 2008
  #75
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norman_nomad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadden Heart View Post
good lord,..
it's still doing it with the time adjuster plugin.

when i insert the time adjuster plugin,.. i set the "samples" to whatever the dialog box at the bottom of the track shows it as
i.e 2175 (vintage warmer2) but after adding that time adjuster it shows the delay as being twice as much?

am i missing something?
i tohught the time adjuster plugin under the "delay" plugin would move the track earlier in time to then match however many samples the plugin made it.

this is rather important to me as i jut ordered my liquid mix and planned on having two busses one "with liquid mix" and one "without" the one with would have a time adjuster plug to compensate for the delay,..

an idea on what i'm doing wrong here?
dude, it's spelled out for you just a few posts up. heh

The time adjust plug only delays tracks MORE. It does not allow you to move the tracks earlier in time.

So in your case you can either:

A. Nudge the Vintage Warmer audio track backwards 2175 samples.
B. Apply the time adjust plug to every other track to make them play back 2175 samples later which would line them up with the Vintage Warmer track.

Make sense?
Old 25th March 2008
  #76
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Spookym15's Avatar
 

A good fix is to command click on the display under the fader to tell you how much latency is on each track. Then put the Time Adjuster plug in on each track without the plug in that is using the CPU. It will work to allow you to Delay comp each track it just wont be automatic. I suppose you could go through and figure out which plug ins will cause all the latency and save it as a pre set to avoid having to figure it out every time.

Hope it helps
Old 25th March 2008
  #77
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Kadden Heart's Avatar
 

i must be misreading crap then.
i honestly am going insane this past week, i'm fried, need a freakin' vacation. i can barely do simple tasks anymore.

ok, so forget the time adjuster then, i'll nudge tracks earlier in time, are you just adjusting the nudge value as you move it and do the math until you've gotten it to where it needs to be?
Old 25th March 2008
  #78
mds
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Just nudge the track with the plugin on it the same number of samples forward (to the left) as the latency box displays. Then the track will start earlier, the plugin will create latency, and it will be heard at the exact time you want it to play.

The time adjuster does the opposite. It is just a simple delay. You place it on the OTHER tracks and have them all delayed by the same amount as the latent plugin. Then they'll all be late at the same time...

It is confusing and ANNOYING...wish we didn't have to deal with it....

Mike
Old 25th March 2008
  #79
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At what point does delay become a problem? I just checked a session I am working on; some tracks showed 1 sample delay - I'm assuming I don't need to compensate for that. Another track showed 42 samples...Is this significant?
I'm specifically referring to tracks that need to be aligned such as a snare track and an overhead track.

Thanks
Old 25th March 2008
  #80
Gear Maniac
 

Im pretty new to PTLE and the thing that bugs me is the fact some plugins dont report the correct latency in the PTLE channel strip at the bottom as somebody already pointed out.
For example Apptrigga, which I use on the kik and snr channels shows zero latency in the Channel strip yet when bounced to disk theres a 155 sample's of latency on the Apptrigga tracks, which obviously knocks the kik and snr tracks out of wack with the rest of the drum kit, so I have to move these two tracks forward in time (to the left) 155 samples. When I get time Im gonna check the latency of my plugins rather than rely on the Read out at the bottom of the channel strip.

Mike
Old 26th March 2008
  #81
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Digi is so f'ing lame for not having this in LE at this point. I left for Logic and am very very happy. It just fits for the way I work.

Digi has to bite me on this one, there is just no good excuse.
Old 26th March 2008
  #82
Deleted 1a30a04
Guest
Please see the Tips/Trick section for a more detailed description ...

jeff
Old 6th April 2008
  #83
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rich robinson's Avatar
 

Does sample rate affect the length of the plug-in delay at all?

P.s. Did you use an VST-RTAS wrapper to get apptrigga in PTLE?
Old 6th April 2008
  #84
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T-fonk's Avatar
 

Hit "alt+H", after highlightening the audiotrack you wan't to move. Now shift back earlier, the amount of delay, caused by the plugin. I usually put a comment in comments field, f.ex "-64 samples", so you keep track of whats been moved around.

T
Old 6th April 2008
  #85
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espasonico's Avatar
 

I don´t like to move things around mainly because if when I finish a mix and I want to make a back-up with the audio files consolidated for posible future use on another DAW, everything will be moved and it´s a chaos. I prefer to use the "Time adjuster" plug-in.
Old 6th April 2008
  #86
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BrandRecordingCo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by madcowvt View Post
Just to clear things up this may help..thumbsup

http://akmedia.digidesign.com/suppor...tems_33000.pdf
So after reading this I now understand that if a track is delayed by 6 ms or whatever, you have to put the time adjuster on ALL other tracks to compensate. That is ridiculous!!! What happens when each track has a few different plugins and they all have different delays? I know the obvious answer is to nudge them by hand. Seems like the time adjuster plugin is quite useless unless you have only one track with plugs or only need to align one track or something.
Old 6th April 2008
  #87
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Dean7's Avatar
 

To people who don't think this is an issue: try recording a guitar track or something with 2 dynamic mics (phase correct). Then add the time delay on one track and try delaying said track by 70 samples. Slide the delay bar back and forth from minimum (4 samples) to 70 samples while listening back and you'll hear why this issue could be HUGE depending on what plugins you are using!
Old 6th April 2008
  #88
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Dean7's Avatar
 

By the way, can I just say thank you to all of the people that did a great job of explaining this (and linking to that PDF on Digi's web site)? I had heard about this and knew it was an issue, but now I understand it and how to compensate for it, so thanks a ton for the great info on this thread. thumbsup
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