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Pro Tools LE, how do you deal with no ADC
Old 7th February 2007
  #31
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toolskid's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ale8one2 View Post
Perhaps MDC is best done towards the end of a mix.
absolutely NOT!

if you are shifting tracks manually, create a playlist, note the amount shifted (ie: "Kick 01 -1024 samples") and shift it IMMEDIATELY - especially with phase-interdependent tracks. Otherwise you'll be dealing with all kinds of unecessary smeary nonsense that is easily avoided.

You do have to be ON IT tho, otherwise you'll swap out plugs for example and end up with many incorrectly shifted regions.

Creating user timestamps for regions in their 'pre-shifted' positions and just spotting them back if you mess up can help you if you are new to this!
Old 7th February 2007
  #32
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HotRats's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
Don't kid yourself, ADC is a big issue!
When you are mixing a song with live drums musicians and there are different plugins on various tracks, the delay can get fairly sizable.

A few weeks a go, a friend of mine brought over his mix from a few years back. He needed to add some new vocals, so we pulled up the NON ADC mix and then I turned on the ADC.
Instantly the whole mix felt better. The drums were tighter, the band had a better feel, everyone was playing the same groove.

Don't underestimate ADC.
Of course, if you mix on a sequencer with ADC and then you turn ADC off you'll
throw your mix away.

But if you mix on PT LE (or on a PT Mix rig) without ADC and you manually
compensate you'll get a perfeclty delay compensated mix.

ADC makes automatically what we do manually. Notihng more, nothing less.

So, don't understimate maual o automatic delay compensation.

As a PT LE user I have to say that the day PT LE will have ADC will be a great day.
Old 7th February 2007
  #33
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madcowvt's Avatar
Just to clear things up this may help..thumbsup

http://akmedia.digidesign.com/suppor...tems_33000.pdf
Old 7th February 2007
  #34
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True North's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtGarceau View Post
ADC in programs like DP and Cubase sounds like **** to my ears. I'd rather shift tracks and have accuracy to the sample.
Really? I came from PT to Cubase and I have no complaints. Someone better give Chuck Ainlay a call to let him know his albums sound like $hit heh

You can still shift manually in Cubase if you really have your heart set on it and I imagine it is no different in DP. Regardless, having ADC will get you closer to where things should be a lot quicker. You are one of the only guys I know who prefers manually shifting your tracks, to each their own I guess.
Old 7th February 2007
  #35
Gear Addict
 

I fail to see the problem, really.

I can strap any Sonalksis or URS plugin across any insert across the mixer and there will never be any delay incurred.

Digi EQIII/DynIII - no delay

Amplitube, Ampeg SVX, Guitar Rig 2, BFD, EZdrummer - no delay

Massey CT4/TapeHead/THC - no delay

Convolution Verb? Yeah there's some delay there. open a timeadjuster plugin on the tracks that need it and copy the settings to the other tracks that need it. 30 seconds - done.

De-Esser? same thing.

Not every mix even calls for a convolution verb and/or de-essed vox... and if you're not using a convolution verb... then nothing to even worry about!

Drumagog? Print the tracks, group them & nudge them backward. easy.

Where is the problem? Is it just me or am I the only one that doesn't need it or even care?
Old 7th February 2007
  #36
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madcowvt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2012 View Post
Is it just me or am I the only one that doesn't need it or even care?
It's funny... I havent even thought about it really untill this thread? Maybe thats my problem
Old 7th February 2007
  #37
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True North's Avatar
 

2012

The major issues arise when using paralell compression and external hardware. It sounds like you have gotten used to adjusting tracks as part of your workflow in which case that is great.

For those of us who find it mind numbingly annoying and unnecessarily time consuming to manually adjust tracks, it is an issue and interrupts work flow and ultimately the creative process IMHO.

I don't have any imperical data, but to answer your question, I don't think it is only you but you are definitely in the minority (FWIW).


Peace
Old 7th February 2007
  #38
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AlexLakis's Avatar
 

2012, you're not alone. I feel the same way. And I use parallel compression and a bunch of outboard gear in my mixes. When I move an LE mix to an HD system, I make sure ADC is OFF, because it only causes more problems and confusion. It doesn't affect my workflow at all, guess I'm just used to nudging stuff and taking notes. Doesn't take more than a few seconds. Don't listen to me, tho, I'm the weirdo who won't even use TDM plugins if given the choice.
Old 7th February 2007
  #39
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dokushoka's Avatar
 

How are people dealing with hardware insert delays in LE? I'm mixing at home, for the first time with LE, and trying to cope with this.
Old 7th February 2007
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True North View Post
2012

The major issues arise when using paralell compression and external hardware. It sounds like you have gotten used to adjusting tracks as part of your workflow in which case that is great.(FWIW).

Peace
True North, yes of course I understand it can be a PITA when using hardware...



My post was directed at users who complain, but only use plugins. If I read the OP correctly, there wasn't going to be any hardware involved, only plugins on a home-based 002, in which case, I don't think there is any need for concern.
Old 7th February 2007
  #41
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Just in case anyone cares, I just had a recent mix open with about 30 tracks, tons of instances of the Digi comp, Elemental Audio's Eqium, and a couple other things. No tracks were registering a delay at all.

I use a bunch of outboard comps and EQs, but I sum through a console and use the inserts to incorporate my outboard. Short of nudging your track while trying to use outboard and mix ITB, I'm pretty sure theres nothing you can do.
Old 7th February 2007
  #42
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The thing is LE has no ADC, digi will not say if or when it is coming. people brought LE that way.
Most other DAW's have it now whcih work in different ways. I just do not see LE as useless without as some would reading threads. There is work arounds, I just think if you want ADC right now you just have to buy something else or HD. HD is what they want you to buy as tehy want the $'s
Old 7th February 2007
  #43
You could learn the delay caused by your insert and ADVANCE tracks running out of the insert by this amount - that way, the tracks will ARRIVE BACK into your session to play at the right time...
Old 7th February 2007
  #44
Gear Maniac
 

parallel processing

I also don't think this is a huge deal. More of a pain because the way I deal with it causes me to use more processing power. The delay from using most plugs is very small and will go unnoticed if it's a single mono track within a song. For example, putting a URS eq on a guitar track will not make that guitar track seem like it's being played late compared to the other instruments. The only problem is with phase related tracks like drums and most noticeable with parallel processing. If you want to parallel compress your drum bus you just need to setup the same plugin on both your uncompressed drum aux and your compressed drum aux. Bypass the plug on the uncompressed aux. This works--even in bypass that plugin will introduce the same delay as the other one. Now they are both delayed the same amount and you won't get weird smeary comb filtering or whatnot. And as mentioned, the delay will likely then be unnoticed (depending on the plugin--some do have significant delay such as linear phase eq's, convo verbs, etc.). ADC would be nice just to have the ability to not waste that processing power on a bypassed plug.

Then again, my mixes do sometimes seem dull and unfocused. I only wish a lack of ADC was the reason, ha ha.
Old 7th February 2007
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules View Post
You could learn the delay caused by your insert and ADVANCE tracks running out of the insert by this amount - that way, the tracks will ARRIVE BACK into your session to play at the right time...
Jules, your still on mix? I went mix, HD and then back to LE. All works with work arounds. I mean nothing is perfect, although it is easy once your used to things.
My little Mbox mini cost less then Cubase LE for hardware and software, although people want LE to do what cubase does.

I just think Digi is a company that sells hardware and then software, where as other companies only sell software. So it is in their best interest that you buy new hardware. LE is limited edition, I would rather a few automation things striped of LE then ADC personally myself.
Mbox need more inputs go 002.
You want ADC and all the other features of HD and your on 002 then buy a HD1.
HD1 core and need more power so you buy another card.
Old 8th February 2007
  #46
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True North's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2012 View Post
True North, yes of course I understand it can be a PITA when using hardware...



My post was directed at users who complain, but only use plugins. If I read the OP correctly, there wasn't going to be any hardware involved, only plugins on a home-based 002, in which case, I don't think there is any need for concern.
In most instances and as noted above, you are right, most delays are not perceivable with plugins. They are however very easy to hear if you use paralell compression with plugs and no ADC.

The other problem is if you have any external plug in device like Duende, Powercore, UAD, Focusrite - these are a major PITA to keep aligned. I am thrilled that I don't have to think about it anymore, but then again YMMV. heh
Old 8th February 2007
  #47
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If you have it, just use AudioSuite version of the plugin. Test how the plugin sounds with RTAS, and once you find the right setting, save the preset. Duplicate the playlist in the track, select it, open AS, load the preset, and process.

Anyone else prefer this method?
Old 8th February 2007
  #48
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Brandon Weaver's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robearto4 View Post
If you have it, just use AudioSuite version of the plugin. Test how the plugin sounds with RTAS, and once you find the right setting, save the preset. Duplicate the playlist in the track, select it, open AS, load the preset, and process.

Anyone else prefer this method?
Too much flexibility lost working this way for me. Mixing is such a dynamic process - you eq'ed the snare just right, now the vocals need to be adjusted... and on and on. It has to end somewhere, but, especially in the beginning of a mix, there is a whole lot of RTAS tweaking that can potentially happen before committing with AudioSuite.

When you start talking about plugins that cause major latency, such as keyed gates, Liquid Mix, Duende, and the like, these are even more difficult, if not impossible, to use as AudioSuite.

In the past I've only opted for audiosuite once I'd run out of processing power (I'm on LE). Now that I've upgraded processors I only use audiosuite for things like AutoTune (even that's less necessary with version 5). There are countless situations RTAS is indispensable for. As such, latency will often be a problem, one that audiosuite can rarely combat.
Old 8th February 2007
  #49
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I use UAD Plugs as well as Liquid Mix, both in Protools LE and ADC doesn't bother me at all. It is really easy to contend with.
Old 8th February 2007
  #50
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Audiosuite version of the plugin sounds different as well.

Sorry for the slight hijack, but I am curious to know how many people have experienced phasing issues with ADC versus MDC? I have heard alot of incidents of it. I'm not sure how many of the ADC algorithms I trust to be honest with you.
Old 8th February 2007
  #51
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by madcowvt View Post
Just to clear things up this may help..thumbsup

http://akmedia.digidesign.com/suppor...tems_33000.pdf
Hey thanks for the link Madcowtv
Old 8th February 2007
  #52
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toolskid's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolffy View Post
Bypass the plug on the uncompressed aux. This works--even in bypass that plugin will introduce the same delay as the other one.
that is not always the case, several RTAS plugins do NOT give the same latency when bypassed!
Old 8th February 2007
  #53
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HotRats's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harley-OIART View Post
Audiosuite version of the plugin sounds different as well.

Sorry for the slight hijack, but I am curious to know how many people have experienced phasing issues with ADC versus MDC? I have heard alot of incidents of it. I'm not sure how many of the ADC algorithms I trust to be honest with you.
I agree. AS plug-ins sounds different...that's not good.

about ADV vs MDC

If our plug-in doesn't communicate the right delay to the host sequencer ADC becomes useless and dangerous.

MDC, if made in the right way, is far more accurate than ADC (with bad algorithms or "bad" plug-ins).

And nudging comsumes no cpu power. ADC does.
Old 8th February 2007
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toolskid View Post
that is not always the case, several RTAS plugins do NOT give the same latency when bypassed!
Really? I haven't noticed that before. I always thought this was automatic and non-plugin specific due to the way all plugins work in PT. I haven't noticed a problem using VST's thru the Fxpansion wrapper this way either. Can you remember any specific ones? I'm not trying to argue, just find out if I'm missing something.
Old 8th February 2007
  #55
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toolskid's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolffy View Post
Really? I haven't noticed that before. I always thought this was automatic and non-plugin specific due to the way all plugins work in PT. I haven't noticed a problem using VST's thru the Fxpansion wrapper this way either. Can you remember any specific ones? I'm not trying to argue, just find out if I'm missing something.
psp vintage warmer
+
isotope vinyl

come to mind
Old 8th February 2007
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toolskid View Post
that is not always the case, several RTAS plugins do NOT give the same latency when bypassed!
True.
Old 8th February 2007
  #57
Gear Head
 

Question:

Is it necessary to TimeAdjust all tracks to line up with the master fader's delay?

For example, if the master fader's delay is reading 64 is it at all necessary/beneficial to TimeAdjust all the tracks to match the master fader? And vice versa?


Pardon me if this seems like a silly question, I've recently moved to Pro Tools LE and to the idea of manual delay compensation.
Old 8th February 2007
  #58
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jdawgg's Avatar
 

I didn't realise this lack of ADC (or lack of) was gonna cause me such grief until I got talking to a well respected music producer yesterday (I've been using an 002 for a couple of years).

He seriously recommended Nuendo as the way to go, so now I'm kinda needing to decide..

I guess my options are PT LE MDC vs Neundo. Rah.
Old 8th February 2007
  #59
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AlexLakis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by brainmeat View Post
Question:

Is it necessary to TimeAdjust all tracks to line up with the master fader's delay?

For example, if the master fader's delay is reading 64 is it at all necessary/beneficial to TimeAdjust all the tracks to match the master fader? And vice versa?


Pardon me if this seems like a silly question, I've recently moved to Pro Tools LE and to the idea of manual delay compensation.
Nope, once it's all summed, there are no other tracks to compare it to, so the latency won't matter.
Old 8th February 2007
  #60
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Thanks for your answer, Alex.
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