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24.75 vs 25.5
Old 24th July 2014
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gammalord View Post
Who's Next was recorded with a Gretsch 6120 w/ Filtertrons - relatively low output pickups.
doubt it


Quote:
Originally Posted by gammalord View Post
Jimmy Page frequently recorded with Telecasters and Danelectros, reportedly more often than his ubiquitous Les Pauls..
reported by whom?
just listen to the albums, there are no telecaster on any thing but zep one. Maybe stairway to heaven and a few stray solos or clean tones.
Danlectro is 25 scale


Quote:
Originally Posted by gammalord View Post
Whether you're right or wrong - you're masquerading your opinions as facts -
wow, sorry but I think someone explained it several posts back, it's all based on physics, my opinion has nothing to do with it, perhaps your love for anything but gibson is clouding your judgments.

Plug in a a paul ...play....listen ....plug in a strat w/humbuckers...play.....listen
If you can hear a discernible difference in fullness
Old 25th July 2014
  #32
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Here you go. Les Paul Long Scale. Definitely more twang, but not exactly a Telecaster. Still, fundamentally a Les Paul. I think I'd like one, but only if the fretboard were wider as well.

Old 25th July 2014
  #33
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A lot of genres in modern metal guitar has gone with much longer scale lengths, often fan frets and extended range guitars (8 and 9 string guitars). Gibson style short scale guitars are great for rock and "regular" heavy metal but a little flabby for the extreme stuff you want a tighter yet huge low end.
Old 25th July 2014
  #34
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Hey there, I don't know if this will help any but my Uncle gave me his first guitar, a '51 Gibson ES-125. Hollow body with one P-90. When he handed it over the poles on the pickup where adjusted almost all the way out. I plugged it into my amp and it was meatier, and more muddy than the Les Paul I've been playing. I adjusted the pole pieces to resemble something more sensible and much lower. It cleaned up a lot. Not quite as meaty, but much more usable. My point of this little story is pickup height can have a tremendous amount to do with tone, just like scale length, the strings and pickups you use, body materials, and most importantly how you caress and play your guitar. Your fingers are probably the most important thing to how your guitar sounds.
Old 25th July 2014
  #35
If this logic were true, my Dano 63 would sound halfway between a strat and a LP.


It doesn't. You guys are overthinking it. Play what feels good in your hand and sounds the way you want it to sound.
Old 25th July 2014
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
25.5 is thin sounding, if someone uses a fender style guitar and it sounds heavy, then they are tuning down. You can't get a heavy or thick sound from 25.5 it's not possible with standard tuning.

If you want good tone you play Gibson style...It's just the way it is. The Rock and Roll sound is Gibson. All the biggest bands played them. There is no way around it. If you tune down you can get decent results with 25.5 but it will still sound tinny and thin. Plus the materials like mahogany Gibson uses will give you a thicker tone than typical ash and poplar bodies like the cheap 25.5 guitars


Gibson's are 24 5/8 by the way.
Thank you. I was just suffering through the thin, brittle sounds of Van Halen I, "Texas Flood, and "Electric Ladyland"--hoping some straight-shootin' know-it-all would finally set the record straight on neck length.

Thank dog we have you around to establish the absolute word on everything.
Old 26th July 2014
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godotzilla View Post
Thank you. I was just suffering through the thin, brittle sounds of Van Halen I, "Texas Flood, and "Electric Ladyland"--hoping some straight-shootin' know-it-all would finally set the record straight on neck length.

Thank dog we have you around to establish the absolute word on everything.
Well, even though I disagree with chainrule, all 3 of those albums are tuned down 1/2 step.
Old 26th July 2014
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godotzilla View Post
Thank you. I was just suffering through the thin, brittle sounds of Van Halen I, "Texas Flood, and "Electric Ladyland"--hoping some straight-shootin' know-it-all would finally set the record straight on neck length.

Thank dog we have you around to establish the absolute word on everything.
well.... i hate to bring this up, but... all three of these guitar players sound kinda thin.

i mean, really. they sound good, but it's easy to hear that they are using strat type guitars.
Old 26th July 2014
  #39
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My brightest guitar is a PRS Mira x. 24.5" scale. My lap steel is ultra bright too (22.5"). I have a single hum strat (25.5) and it is muddy in comparison to both (muddier than a les paul JR too, 24.75")

The placement of the pickup is more impactful than the scale length.
Old 26th July 2014
  #40
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Things are not always what they seem anyhow.

Part of the Stairway to Heaven solo was recorded with a Tele. Another Brick in the Wall II solo was a Goldtop LP (P-90 I think). Jimi often played Gibson Vs and still sounded like Jimi. Clapton sounds like himself despite guitar choice also.

Technique plays into this too. Some players tend to sound bright some dark. I have heard it called "bone tone" and some people use this to their advantage.
Old 27th July 2014
  #41
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Science doesn't lie.
Old 27th July 2014
  #42
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Don't troll. If you don't have anything to add, then don't.

hevychvy/chainrule doesn't like Strats. That's it. There's nothing else to see here.
Old 27th July 2014
  #43
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The neck pickup of a good LP is what makes the LP sound Fat.

Great for some parts, way too dark for others.

HB's saturate with a hard attack faster than a neck position single coil.

The neck scale might make the string action tighter or looser, but I can't see where neck scale matters as far as fatness of tone.

If you want more sustain, consider a neck through design like a Firebird.

I love Fenders for note definition, jangle and chime and spank.

Gibsons for fat single note leads and power chords.

P-90's for a bit of both.

Sounds to me like an HSS Strat or Tele might do the trick too.
Old 27th July 2014
  #44
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It is definitely not that simple as just scale lenght. Who said wood type does not matter in electric guitars? Than, why we do not have a good sounding plastic guitars?

LP sounds like LP not because it's scale, but because of combination of wood type, construction, pickups, scale, etc, etc... It is not just the scale. And it is not only the wood type, or strings thickness...heck, i have a guitar with 34" scale, can you predict how it sounds?

If someone trying to use science, please, do not simplify the math.
Old 27th July 2014
  #45
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The guy who said wood type doesn't matter proved somewhat scientifically
that a Squire sounds no better than a guitar built out of composite sawdust fiberboard. :-)
Old 29th July 2014
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kafka View Post
Here you go. Les Paul Long Scale. Definitely more twang....
Huh. Yeah. Interesting.

I moved to short scale because long scale was ergonomically hard for me but that may have been a mistake. Like when I traded my Naked Lady Conn tenor for a later one....
Old 29th July 2014
  #47
Like another guy said wait 'til you play a 27" inch scale, they have many advantages, one is the snap and punch, you can also play chords way up the neck but what sealed the deal is that the intonation is waaaaay better, you can hit the strings harder because there is more tension, there's more sustain ... longer scale guitars are a lot louder acustically too.
Old 1st August 2014
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus View Post
A lot of genres in modern metal guitar has gone with much longer scale lengths, often fan frets and extended range guitars (8 and 9 string guitars). Gibson style short scale guitars are great for rock and "regular" heavy metal but a little flabby for the extreme stuff you want a tighter yet huge low end.
They use a longer scalse because when you tune lower or use 7 strings you need the extra tension, you actually still get less bass the longer the scale, except that you are tuning down, so you think you are getting more bass, in reality you are not relatively speaking.

If you used dropped C with a les paul the strings would be rattling on the frets with the 24 5/8 scale. The first drop c metal song was Into the void, you can hear how loose the strings are. With 25.5 it's adds more tension so it will allow for a cleaner sound. If you do drop C on a Les Paul it will sound waaaay heavier than 25.5, except you would have to use very heavy strings to compensate for lack of tension.
Old 1st August 2014
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godotzilla View Post
Thank you. I was just suffering through the thin, brittle sounds of Van Halen I, "Texas Flood, and "Electric Ladyland"--hoping some straight-shootin' know-it-all would finally set the record straight on neck length.

Thank dog we have you around to establish the absolute word on everything.
For one lots of VH 1 was an Ibanez destroyer, also Eddie tuned down so it will sound heavier. I am not familiar with the band Texas Flood but Electric Ladyland has lots of songs with Les Pauls and Flying vs on it


Quote:
Originally Posted by godotzilla View Post

Thank dog we have you around to establish the absolute word on everything.
nice

but umm the physics is there as proof. It's not a secret. It's not that people who use 25.5 have thin tone, it's that if they used 25 5/8 they would have thicker tone.
Old 1st August 2014
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
They use a longer scalse because when you tune lower or use 7 strings you need the extra tension, you actually still get less bass the longer the scale, except that you are tuning down, so you think you are getting more bass, in reality you are not relatively speaking.

If you used dropped C with a les paul the strings would be rattling on the frets with the 24 5/8 scale. The first drop c metal song was Into the void, you can hear how loose the strings are. With 25.5 it's adds more tension so it will allow for a cleaner sound. If you do drop C on a Les Paul it will sound waaaay heavier than 25.5, except you would have to use very heavy strings to compensate for lack of tension.
duh, that was what I was saying. But you are still wrong in part. What about bass guitars which have 30+ scale length and definitely sound bassier than a Les Paul? The same with longer scale guitars, you can put thicker strings on and tune even lower than you can on a Les Paul; plus the longer the strings the slower the wavelength which means more bass. It's nothing like "just thinking" you are getting more bass, you are.

Regardless, any sound difference between a Les Paul and a Strat are usually due to pickup selection. You usually don't see to many single coils on a LP.
Old 4th August 2014
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kafka View Post
Don't troll. If you don't have anything to add, then don't.

hevychvy/chainrule doesn't like Strats. That's it. There's nothing else to see here.
hey... you just stepped in and pronounced a judgement on me? well, you're absolutely wrong. i do like 25.5 inch scale guitars very much. who do you think you are? Mr psychic? i was trying to have a discussion about the merits of both guitar types. les paul thickness and strat brilliance and musicality. sorry to be so blunt, but how dare you just pop in and diss off our conversation and then say nothing here, move along. i think you owe me an apology.
Old 5th August 2014
  #52
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"Science doesn't lie"? Give it a break. That contributes nothing. Hell, I'm the only person in this thread who contributed anything that remotely counts as science.
Old 8th August 2014
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus View Post
duh



Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus View Post
What about bass guitars which have 30+ scale length and definitely sound bassier than a Les Paul?
bass is an octave lower than guitar. The stings are thicker so it has less tension, as a result it sounds like it does



Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus View Post


Regardless, any sound difference between a Les Paul and a Strat are usually due to pickup selection. You usually don't see to many single coils on a LP.
actually no, it is 99% due to scale . A 25.5 sound thinner due to tension and other factors.

Sorry..................It's all physics............................ there is NO debate


look back there are a couple great posts here that explain it, its all there.

About 20 years me and this guy I worked with did a vibration analysis simulation on different guitars. We modeled the guitars in CAD and we assigned different mass propertied based on wood density utilizing this software called Ansys. The purpose of the tests was to simply see how the mass of different woods would affect vibrations and subsequently harmonics. What we discovered was string tension in addition to different scale lengths had the greatest impact on vibrations. The software couldn't tell us what guitar would have sounded better or anything that advanced, but rather which guitars where more "excited" by tension and vibration of mass . We didn't learn much except that scale length drastically changed the behavior of frequency responses. I think all the science of this is explained above. Our tests didn't address these specifics since we were only concerned with wood and different materials. We by accident, found out scale length was a huge factor, perhaps the greatest factor in vibration and presumably tone of a guitar. I have the test data on a cd rom somewhere but I'd have to get in touch with that guy that worked on it with me to interpret it, he was a structural engineer so he knew all the science, I only did the 3D modeling and Voxel conversion. So I didn't really know anything intricate.


On that note, just Rock out \m/ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! who cares ....whatever works for you. I have a 25.5 Schecter Exotic that has a carved top maple flame mahogany back with humbuckers, it sounds very thin. But the extra tension helps me shred easier so I like it for that. But it is thinner tone than my Paul. Both these guitars are 8+lbs too. They have the same Seymour JBs.................. same wood, same weight, same pickups and still sounds like a strat
it's bizarre.
Old 8th August 2014
  #54
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FFTT's Avatar
 

An LP sounds like an LP not due to the scale, but due to the body wood density and a much fatter sounding pickup in the neck position.

A neck position HB is darker than a single coil and breaks up easier than a single coil, even a P-90 is lighter and more detailed than an HB.

The scale will effect the overall timbre of the instrument as well as the action.

Just putting a capo on a guitar will change the timbre of the instrument.

If I want a more detailed low end on an LP, I'm going to choose a special with P-90s.

I own a good LP and a good Strat, I know what they can do.
Old 8th August 2014
  #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
doubt it


reported by whom?
just listen to the albums, there are no telecaster on any thing but zep one. Maybe stairway to heaven and a few stray solos or clean tones.
Danlectro is 25 scale



wow, sorry but I think someone explained it several posts back, it's all based on physics, my opinion has nothing to do with it, perhaps your love for anything but gibson is clouding your judgments.

Plug in a a paul ...play....listen ....plug in a strat w/humbuckers...play.....listen
If you can hear a discernible difference in fullness
Can't comment on anything else, but Page is well known for a love of telecasters. He was a busy session guitarist before Zeppelin (the quote doesn't mention zep, only JP) and there are telecasters with pafs and humbuckers of course.

Doubting isn't the same as proving.
Old 8th August 2014
  #56
Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
Townsend played Gibson's on the virtually all the hard rock stuff they did. Live at leeds, Who's next Who are you, is all les paul or sg. Page played Les pauls on almost everything. Billy Gibbons used Korina Vs and his pearly gates is world famous. Joe Walsh played Les Pauls, Rocky mountain way is a Paul. Page has Joe Walsh's 59 Paul.

The fact of the matter is, the heavy bands played Gibsons. There are exceptions. Megadeeth used 25.5 also Iron Maiden used fenders. But if you look at most of the big heavy bands like Metallica, AC/DC, Sabbath, The Who that BIG sound is Gibson. It's just the way it is. 25.5 is inherently very thing and tinny. That's why guys like VH tuned down to compensate for this. But he also played an Ibanez destroyer alot too. That was 24.75

Play what you like, but 24 5/8 is going to give you a fuller sound. 25.5 is going to give you more tension so you can play faster. Notice all the shredder guys play 25.5. It gives you more resistance. Fenders sound better cleaner. It depends. One is not better than the other, just different.
Metallica.... Don't play, nor have they ever to my knowledge, played gibsons - it's superstats (currently esp?) all the way. Whatever VH might have played, he's also a superstrat type guy - the kramer being the main guitar for a while of course.

Are you really suggesting scale is more of a contribution to thickness of tone than pickup style - you are aware that most fenders are single coil, most gibsons humbucker right? Don't you think that might be more of a contribution?! Or string gauge after that?!
Old 8th August 2014
  #57
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Animus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post




bass is an octave lower than guitar. The stings are thicker so it has less tension, as a result it sounds like it does




actually no, it is 99% due to scale . A 25.5 sound thinner due to tension and other factors.

Sorry..................It's all physics............................ there is NO debate


look back there are a couple great posts here that explain it, its all there.

About 20 years me and this guy I worked with did a vibration analysis simulation on different guitars. We modeled the guitars in CAD and we assigned different mass propertied based on wood density utilizing this software called Ansys. The purpose of the tests was to simply see how the mass of different woods would affect vibrations and subsequently harmonics. What we discovered was string tension in addition to different scale lengths had the greatest impact on vibrations. The software couldn't tell us what guitar would have sounded better or anything that advanced, but rather which guitars where more "excited" by tension and vibration of mass . We didn't learn much except that scale length drastically changed the behavior of frequency responses. I think all the science of this is explained above. Our tests didn't address these specifics since we were only concerned with wood and different materials. We by accident, found out scale length was a huge factor, perhaps the greatest factor in vibration and presumably tone of a guitar. I have the test data on a cd rom somewhere but I'd have to get in touch with that guy that worked on it with me to interpret it, he was a structural engineer so he knew all the science, I only did the 3D modeling and Voxel conversion. So I didn't really know anything intricate.


On that note, just Rock out \m/ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! who cares ....whatever works for you. I have a 25.5 Schecter Exotic that has a carved top maple flame mahogany back with humbuckers, it sounds very thin. But the extra tension helps me shred easier so I like it for that. But it is thinner tone than my Paul. Both these guitars are 8+lbs too. They have the same Seymour JBs.................. same wood, same weight, same pickups and still sounds like a strat
it's bizarre.
So what you are saying is that if you have a Gibson and a Fender and you put thicker gauge strings on the Fender to make an equivalent string tension as the Gibson, while both being tuned the same, the Gibson is going to sound thicker due to the shorter scale length?
Old 8th August 2014
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Metallica.... Don't play, nor have they ever to my knowledge, played gibsons - it's superstats (currently esp?) all the way. Whatever VH might have played, he's also a superstrat type guy - the kramer being the main guitar for a while of course.

The first 4 albums are gibson explorers or flying Vs on the rhythms


Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Are you really suggesting scale is more of a contribution to thickness of tone than pickup style - you are aware that most fenders are single coil, most gibsons humbucker right? Don't you think that might be more of a contribution?! Or string gauge after that?!
yeah but put a humbucker in a 25.5 and it will still have a certain sound
Old 8th August 2014
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus View Post
So what you are saying is that if you have a Gibson and a Fender and you put thicker gauge strings on the Fender to make an equivalent string tension as the Gibson, while both being tuned the same, the Gibson is going to sound thicker due to the shorter scale length?
No I'm not saying that. But it would be a cool experiment
Old 8th August 2014
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT View Post
An LP sounds like an LP not due to the scale, but due to the body wood density and a much fatter sounding pickup in the neck position.
it's the scale length for sure, I used to think the same thing you did but after research and experiments saw (heard) first hand it has very very little to do with wood and pickups. Sure a pickups will help but only to a point. Original Les Pauls had single coil pickups they still sounded fat.

Do the research all the proof is all there. Unfortunately 24.625 vs 25.5 becomes and instant a fender vs Gibson debate when it should just be one scale length vs another debate, it's becomes an religious argument at that point, so all rational goes out the door because there are fanboys on both sides. That's why it's tough to get people to agree on the truth. But the science is there to prove it. It's explained perfectly in this thread by some other posters. It's all physics...you can argue with science

sorry but scale length is the #1 factor for tone. I used to think it was wood and pickups too. They are a factor but not as big an impact as scale.
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