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Simple vs complex Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 26th March 2014
  #121
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorse View Post
Soooo, aaaa, did anyone happen to notice Malmsteen scored an entire orchestra piece and played along with them? I get fatigued listening to a lot of it but really, the chap is quite amazing at what he does. I sure as hell cannot do what he does. So I am far not to insult him. Saying he cannot write, I mean seriously??
Amazon.com: Concerto Suite for Electric Guitar and Orchestra: Yngwie Malmsteen: Movies & TV
Even my wife recognizes the chap can rip and is rather amazing. It is not easy listening to be sure. But fellow is a unique talent. He wrote all the music.
Any second year college music theory major can write and score for an orchestra.

Whether he can write is not the point.

The point is, can he write anything worth listening to?

The practice rooms of any college level music school are filled with people who can "rip". That doesn't mean they're anything more than people who practice a lot.

Like I said before, music is not an athletic event.
Old 27th March 2014
  #122
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Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Any second year college music theory major can write and score for an orchestra.

Whether he can write is not the point.

The point is, can he write anything worth listening to?

The practice rooms of any college level music school are filled with people who can "rip". That doesn't mean they're anything more than people who practice a lot.

Like I said before, music is not an athletic event.
Probably but can they play at a master class level as well?
I find what Yngwie does extraordinary and I enjoy it now and then. For me he is the best at that neo-classical thing. It is what it is.
Well there is a whole lot of stuff out there I cannot term listenable. I appreciate sometimes hearing what the guitar is capable of doing. I listen to a lot of players some I like because I cannot do what they do.
A well rounded musician is capable of diverse styles and ranges. Some I like for that ability.
True some players tire you out as the ear can only take so much of anything. I have a limited time listening or playing anything. Still it's all good. I listen to Vai and Satriani a lot as well but I also like a lot of other players. Vai is another extraordinary technical true musician who is capable of amazing things. His first job was transcribing Frank Zappa's material. Satriani has a very good sense of groove to his material, even my wife likes some of it and that is a hard sell.
I am old school myself and I like the old masters like Pagey or Jeff Beck or my old mentor Robin Trower. Some new stuff is good but I find it difficult to really like a lot of the newer stuff. Good is good, is the way I hear it. I've been playing for a very long time and I can play as well as most but I do respect Yngwie and others for such an ability I cannot do.
Old 27th March 2014
  #123
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Theo Stobbe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
It's the difference between playing music and an athletic competition. If I'm gonna watch sports it'll be baseball or hockey, not some guy doing finger exercises.
When and if I want to see athletic competition, I prefer to see some girl doing finger exercises (Ana Popovic for example!)

You can experience music on a lot of levels and I don't like watching sports.
Old 27th March 2014
  #124
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kafka's Avatar
I find Yngwie to be interesting for about two or three minutes, but then I have to turn it off. He's just someone with a very limited musical vocabulary. He's spent 30 years milking 2 or 3 throwoff licks he copped from Al Di Meola. Well, good for him. It's probably better than what he would have otherwise done with his life. However, I don't feel any need to express any admiration for his playing. And as far as that 'concerto' goes, well, honestly, it's unlistenable dreck.
Old 27th March 2014
  #125
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jimbridgman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorse View Post
Probably but can they play at a master class level as well?
I find what Yngwie does extraordinary and I enjoy it now and then. For me he is the best at that neo-classical thing. It is what it is.
Well there is a whole lot of stuff out there I cannot term listenable. I appreciate sometimes hearing what the guitar is capable of doing. I listen to a lot of players some I like because I cannot do what they do.
A well rounded musician is capable of diverse styles and ranges. Some I like for that ability.
True some players tire you out as the ear can only take so much of anything. I have a limited time listening or playing anything. Still it's all good. I listen to Vai and Satriani a lot as well but I also like a lot of other players. Vai is another extraordinary technical true musician who is capable of amazing things. His first job was transcribing Frank Zappa's material. Satriani has a very good sense of groove to his material, even my wife likes some of it and that is a hard sell.
I am old school myself and I like the old masters like Pagey or Jeff Beck or my old mentor Robin Trower. Some new stuff is good but I find it difficult to really like a lot of the newer stuff. Good is good, is the way I hear it. I've been playing for a very long time and I can play as well as most but I do respect Yngwie and others for such an ability I cannot do.
Look I have stuck up for most of these "shred" players you mentioned, but I gotta say songwriters they are not, for the most part. I think that at times Vai may be the exception to that, out of those that you mentioned. Beck and the others of course do not fit in the genre I am speaking of and they can play and write amazing songs.

As for Yngwie, as John said any second year college theory student can write for an orchestra. I had to do that for my final exam every year in music theory, for college. My Sr. year my final exam was played by the Austin philharmonic. Music theory is all about rules, and not straying from them. Commercial music and song writing is also about rules, but only up to a point, then it is about creativity and musicality and hooks, and much more than any concerto will ever be. I love classical music just as much as I do commercial music, but I have to say that what Yngwie does is not magical or even great playing, it is sloppy fast licks, and nothing more. He is obsessed with Paganini and it shows in his style, but that was done already, just not on the guitar.

Look I give Yngwie a lot of credit, but he can not write interesting or good commercial music to save himself, period. I am absolutely not questioning his skills or abilities as a great guitar player, but that is where his talent ends in my opinion. There are others in the same genre who are much better songwriters than Yngwie is. Back in the day when neo-classical was the rage, those others sucked at songwriting just as much as Yngwie did/does, but they grew and learned and got better at it, Yngwie not so much.

Playing fast classical licks, needs to be done right and in the context of the song, or the music, and not just to show skills, as most of the time it is more of a showing of skils than anything else. Trust me I know this, as I am a recording "shred" guitar artist myself, but I did learn how to songwrite and create great hooks and use speed as an accent, and not a feature. It should be more about holding the perfect note at the right time, or the note choices, and then after a slower riff, maybe a short little fast run in a solo section, which goes into something more musical sounding to end on, that maybe just perfectly fits the song. That takes way more talent in my opionion.

In my experience great players do not always make great songwriters. Just because you know the notes and how to play them and can do it really fast and in any mode or key is something a guitar player should learn early on, then they should also be learn how to use those skills, but most of the time they never learn that and get stuck in the whole "I have to play a lot of scales and fast" thing, and never grow. This is why certain guitar teachers can harm students just as much as help them.

Jim
Old 27th March 2014
  #126
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FFTT's Avatar
 

Playing totally by ear as a hack of all trades, I don't know theory, couldn't score an orchestra if my life depended on it. Still I can play all these instruments, arrange complex string sections, horn sections, layer guitars, hack my way around keys, sing multi-part vocals, and create it all from scratch.

If you asked me what notes or chords I'm playing, I couldn't tell you for sure
without using a tuner.

I don't use hearing as just a reference, I literally play the parts I hear in my head and figure out how to play it from there.

In one evening, my old band covered 78 songs, all from memory.

Not just guitar, bass, keys and drums, but also intricate 5 part harmonies.
Everyone played at least two instruments and could also carry a lead vocal.

I've met bunches of professional, full time classically trained concert musicians who are stunned at what I can do with no formal training.
Old 27th March 2014
  #127
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jimbridgman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT View Post
Playing totally by ear as a hack of all trades, I don't know theory, couldn't score an orchestra if my life depended on it. Still I can play all these instruments, arrange complex string sections, horn sections, layer guitars, hack my way around keys, sing multi-part vocals, and create it all from scratch.

If you asked me what notes or chords I'm playing, I couldn't tell you for sure
without using a tuner.

I don't use hearing as just a reference, I literally play the parts I hear in my head and figure out how to play it from there.

In one evening, my old band covered 78 songs, all from memory.

Not just guitar, bass, keys and drums, but also intricate 5 part harmonies.
Everyone played at least two instruments and could also carry a lead vocal.

I've met bunches of professional, full time classically trained concert musicians who are stunned at what I can do with no formal training.
I agree that is impressive, I have met some very talented people that have learned by ear, like you, it is a great skill to have.

I started like that when I was younger, but I wanted to learn all about music, in every facet, that's why I went to school for it, and got the recording engineer bug there, that was now 20 years ago.

Jim
Old 27th March 2014
  #128
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For years I've wondered- Yngwie Malmsteen
How is it pronounced?
Eyengwee?
Enwee?
Mahlmsteen?
Old 27th March 2014
  #129
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Theo Stobbe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ljefe View Post
For years I've wondered
You are complex!
You need full range!
Old 27th March 2014
  #130
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jimbridgman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljefe View Post
For years I've wondered- Yngwie Malmsteen
How is it pronounced?
Eyengwee?
Enwee?
Mahlmsteen?

How do you pronounce yngwie malmsteens name

Jim
Old 27th March 2014
  #131
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbridgman View Post
As for Yngwie, as John said any second year college theory student can write for an orchestra. I had to do that for my final exam every year in music theory, for college.
Same here. Scoring for an orchestra can rise to high art in the correct hands. But at it's base, it's a mechanical, almost mathmatical function that can be tackled by any reasonably intelligent person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbridgman View Post
Look I give Yngwie a lot of credit, but he can not write interesting or good commercial music to save himself, period.
Yng simply made his name in the shadow of Ulrich Roth and Van Halen, when so many guitarists were hungering for "shred on steroids." He scratched that itch because he had the sound, look and the hair. Now he's got the cred for breaking it big, and he's living on that cred. I've listened to a ton of his stuff and have to agree that he's never written a song that has stayed with me. It's all about the shred.

But that's just me. I don't get a lot of stuff in the world. Others do, though. It is what it is.

p.s. I've always said "Ing-Vay."
Old 27th March 2014
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo S View Post
You are complex!
You need full range!


@Jim- thanks
Old 27th March 2014
  #133
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Theo Stobbe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ljefe View Post
For years I've wondered- Yngwie Malmsteen
How is it pronounced?
Eyengwee?
Enwee?
Mahlmsteen?
It's @ 0:04

Old 27th March 2014
  #134
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FFTT's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbridgman View Post
I agree that is impressive, I have met some very talented people that have learned by ear, like you, it is a great skill to have.

I started like that when I was younger, but I wanted to learn all about music, in every facet, that's why I went to school for it, and got the recording engineer bug there, that was now 20 years ago.

Jim
I had a bad experience with my high school band instructor.

He was so consumed with the fact that I refused to cut my hair, that he would
try to encourage other players to try and bump me from 1st chair alto sax.

I was playing symphonic level, lead stuff like Marriage of Figaro with the sheet music closed after a quick review the night before.

I was already becoming quite advanced on bass, so one day we had it out in front of the entire band and I walked out of the class never to return.

I was one of 4 kids out of more than 70 students to ever go on to earn a living as a musician.

All these years later, the ability to sight read fast and to know theory may have been a better long term career move, only because it would help me to communicate better with other more conventionally trained musicians.

I saw written music as a crutch for too many players.
Take away the sheet music and they froze. They couldn't play parts they had played for years without looking at the sheet music.

I used written music only to help me figure out the part, but did not consider
my part "Learned" until I could play it from memory.

A tastefully executed, well thought out searing fast lead can add great impact to a song, even just a quick flash of speed.
Playing that fast throughout the entire piece would easily become monotonous.

Rather than artfully showing that he has the chops, but also the taste and timing to deploy them with deliberation and purpose, like Gilmour, the speed metal shredders simply become ******s and hot shots consumed with self & boasting their digital dexterity to extremes.

Give me a John Lennon, Malcolm Young, George Harrison & Clapton on Slide, any effing day over those speed shredders.
Old 27th March 2014
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT View Post

A tastefully executed, well thought out searing fast lead can add great impact to a song, even just a quick flash of speed.
Playing that fast throughout the entire piece would easily become monotonous.

Rather than artfully showing that he has the chops, but also the taste and timing to deploy them with deliberation and purpose, like Gilmour, the speed metal shredders simply become ******s and hot shots consumed with self & boasting their digital dexterity to extremes.

Give me a John Lennon, Malcolm Young, George Harrison & Clapton on Slide, any effing day over those speed shredders.
Amen
Old 28th March 2014
  #136
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorse View Post
or my old mentor Robin Trower.
You studied under Trower?
Old 28th March 2014
  #137
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Not even sure I should get into this one.....

How about this,

opinions on Eric Johnson?


I always found him to be the most musical of the shredders.
Old 28th March 2014
  #138
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Johnny Favorite's Avatar
 

Shredders ?? Stop hijacking, this is a thread about nothing.
Old 28th March 2014
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
Not even sure I should get into this one.....

How about this,

opinions on Eric Johnson?


I always found him to be the most musical of the shredders.
Shredder? Is that basically anyone who can play?
Some chaps around here, I doubt they are a pimple on someone's ass.
Old 28th March 2014
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorse View Post
Shredder? Is that basically anyone who can play?
Semantic change - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Old 28th March 2014
  #141
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jimbridgman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
Not even sure I should get into this one.....

How about this,

opinions on Eric Johnson?


I always found him to be the most musical of the shredders.
I have said my take on Eric Johnson on this board many times, and I think he is amazing, one of my favorites, and his tone is the absolute best in my opinion.

I wouldn't necessarily call him a shredder though. A great musician though, is more what I like to consider him.

And back on topic, I would say his playing is simple and complex and that can change on a whim.

Jim
Old 28th March 2014
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorse View Post
Shredder? Is that basically anyone who can play?
Some chaps around here, I doubt they are a pimple on someone's ass.


Please don't mistake me for a hater. I enjoy all these guys playing. Perhaps that is because I took the time to sit down and learn how to play Yngwie, EVH, etc. Along with classical guitar, jazz, chicken picken, etc....


I was just curious to hear what the people who think they suck think of Eric Johnson. Because if you don't at least find him musical..... I don't know man...
Old 28th March 2014
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbridgman View Post
his tone is the absolute best in my opinion.

Jim
Agreed,

Have you ever played through the real tube driver? I plugged into one and in two seconds was like "oh, thats his secret".

Literally, you play a note, and it is the same volume until there is no sound coming out of your guitar. It is the secret to that violin'esqe sustain, which in turn makes those nice, large interval arpeggios so easy to play.

p.s. make sure the treble is set to 0, turns the guitar into a giant brown violin.
Old 28th March 2014
  #144
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jimbridgman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
Agreed,

Have you ever played through the real tube driver? I plugged into one and in two seconds was like "oh, thats his secret".

Literally, you play a note, and it is the same volume until there is no sound coming out of your guitar. It is the secret to that violin'esqe sustain, which in turn makes those nice, large interval arpeggios so easy to play.

p.s. make sure the treble is set to 0, turns the guitar into a giant brown violin.
Yep, that is the only pedal I still have in my rack, I love that thing.

Jim
Old 28th March 2014
  #145
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These guys like Satriani, Johnson, Vai and Malmsteen. I watch them for a few minutes and then I move on. Especially Vai and Satriani..gone.

Ok I tend to continue watching Malmsteen because of the way he looks in those clothes..he looks like some sort of beast from an English beast story about a strange beast..and I know he's not english. His fat fingers running the fretboard..hair, clothes..he's a strange spectacle and then he needst o spin the guitar around his neck on the strap. LOL. He does seem like he's a fairly nice fellow though.

Johnson seems to be the less flashy of the bunch.

He doesn't really do the old..looking at the crowd, making facial gestures and trying to drum up adulation *thing*. I appreciate that. He certainly is one helluva technical guitar player..probably the most melodic of the bunch, which i like.

I can't stand watching Satriani and Vai doing that crowd thing..It's almost like they're trying to wake everyone up...facial gestures that say.."that was excellent, wadn't it?? no? watch this now!"

Don't get me wrong, I AM the pimple on someone's butt in terms of being a great guitar player. These guys can all play their asses off..really fly..but it doesn't mean I cant make fun of them..Most of them are total Spinal Tap bait in terms of how they present themselves..it's kinda funny.

..I find sometimes watching these dudes that the dynamic doesn't change much cause it's clustered around supporting this one dude who, most of the time, is wailing away. I don't think I could survive a show from any of them, honestly.

The best thing I ever saw from Vai was actually a shred on Youtube and when I watch this I laugh my ass off..

Old 28th March 2014
  #146
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FFTT's Avatar
 

I thought the Dixie Dregs sounded fantastic for an instrumental group.

Still, I preferred Steely Dan and Eagles-Joe Walsh for guitar tones, vocals and
pure entertainment value.
Old 28th March 2014
  #147
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
opinions on Eric Johnson?
I always found him to be the most musical of the shredders.
Yes, very musical minded artist, IMO. Heavy melodic-based compositions, peppered with tastefully placed shocks of blaze.
Old 28th March 2014
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pchicago View Post
The best thing I ever saw from Vai was actually a shred on Youtube and when I watch this I laugh my ass off..

That is a brilliant video.
Old 28th March 2014
  #149
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While I generally dislike the shred videos (only because some people are stupid enough to believe it is actually them playing). There is one that is truly piss you pants funny....

You were warned, please use the bathroom before watching





Old 28th March 2014
  #150
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FFTT's Avatar
 

Vai's guitar faces with that St Sanders Shred track, what perfect comedy.
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