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Simple vs complex Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 22nd March 2014
  #91
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jimbridgman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT View Post
I can take Malmsteen for like 30 seconds before I'm bored to tears.
That is because Malmsteen is not a "Song writer", but a "Riff creator", and basically regurgitates classical with utmost speed. That is boring.

Now I am a shredder myself, and I liked Mamlsteen when he first hit the scene and I was like 12, so... But, being able to use the skill to write songs and create a true landscape with that is the skill to have.

Guys like Tony MacAlpine and Vinnie Moore from the early days of that genre did the same thing as Yngwie did, but have since grown musically and are now more songwriters and use their shredding skill with songwriting skill to do it right.
Also guys like Andy Timmons use that same songwriting mixed with that "shredding" skill to make it interesting and even one of my new favorite solo players of late is Glen Drover, who all are now more in the fusion line instead of the pure shred that Yngwie, and some of them started.

Examples of this where songwriting meets shred playing are listed... these are more vocal lead lines in the more songwriting vein...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrB2DkXnC6I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa8xBtmrEhs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_8Yk4l1pbk

There is more, but these will do to show what I am talking about... These guys would not exist in this fashion if Yngwie had not done his thing and opened the gates earlier... even though I still can't stand Yngwie anymore, like after I learned about true songwriting and keeping the ideas and lines shorter in the song when you write in this genre.

Jim
Old 22nd March 2014
  #92
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FFTT's Avatar
 

My fingers hurt just watching this!

That's the one thing maturity hopefully brings to musicians as they gain more experience. Taste, Timing and Purpose as they structure their parts.

Old 22nd March 2014
  #93
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Theo Stobbe's Avatar
 

Actually I do like all posts in this thread. It feels like meeting some guys in a . . . . complex! (Haha, simple as that!)

Seriously, the discussion evolves, someone talks about mental and physics, another remembered Richards, which lead to riffs and Malmsteen.
Of course I have my own contexts in mind, but this is life, this is conversation.
I read names I've never heard of. I will do some research.

Thnx!
Old 22nd March 2014
  #94
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo S View Post
It reassures me you are on that level of perception, where you can look at my level and value it, while of course I finding difficulties to understand your level of the unpredictabillities. Your telling me "Oh, a big complex chord" would let me crow like a baby, while the adult level "parent" in you ("Do what you want, boy") knows, "it really, really, . . . . really means nothing".

It's about chords, sound, the degree of complexity of both and their relation. How much context do you need?
I wasn't trying to sound callous, ("Do what you want, boy"). I'm simply saying that this is your job as the 'artist'. The creative decision making, every step of the way. Do what you want/feel, listen to yourself through those steps.
But I guess, you're not really asking, and I was confused thinking you wanted advice, but I guess you just want a discussion on the matter instead.

I think complex isn't really a good term for things in music. I've felt for a long time that, in general, things are 'simple'. But, simple/complex are polarized - so I'd even like to take them both out, and say that 'it just is...' lol ...

Then you get to things like the 'New Complexity' genre. Then, most people can't even read the sheet music 'as it's written', and offer their own interpretations due to the difficulty of it. Composers like Brian Ferneyhough, or even Xenakis, did get complex in their own right. Technically hard to perform.

Anyways, to sum up - your general audience doesn't know when you use a spicy chord, or hardly even complex rhythms, or counterpoint. Or maybe they do, but they don't know what -makes- it complex. I think most just know how it makes them feel. If it feels good, it's good, as someone else said. Satisfy yourself, foremost. Creativity involves both the heart and mind - and whichever is craving, you can consider fulfilling. Sometimes your mind wants some exercise, and not to let the heart have all the fun, or vice versa. I guess your choice is to decide which to indulge, because they both can have quite a different result. Or mix them the best you can - the choice is yours.

That's how I feel about it anyways. heh.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #95
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FFTT's Avatar
 

To some players, playing guitar is like a never ending gunfight at the O.K. Corral. For some reason compelled to prove beyond all doubt who is the fastest gun or die trying.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #96
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lol, indeed. Because fastest is bestest!
Old 22nd March 2014
  #97
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Theo Stobbe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT View Post
To some players, playing guitar is like a never ending gunfight at the O.K. Corral. For some reason compelled to prove beyond all doubt who is the fastest gun or die trying.
Which is eventually fine. Those fights have their own complexity, 'ritual dances', 'calling names', prepositions and attitudes. It's a market. ('poor man's stuff' vs 'the real (sic) stuff')

When about 'fast', I like to think more 'high definition resolution'. I do like that a lot. Holdsworth, Shawn Lane, etc. I like the 'color' of fast.
Which brings me at: shredders in general do not like 'class A' because of the complexity of it. They prefer Soldano, Marshall and those class AB, 'fast' amps.
(Ok, prove me wrong eventually, I'm an old 80's shredder ;-) AND . . . . I was surprised hearing Holdsworth on the One of a Kind Album with the roaring sound of a Vox AC30 (which is class A), very fast. In fact it was my initiation to his music.)
Old 22nd March 2014
  #98
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jimbridgman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT View Post
To some players, playing guitar is like a never ending gunfight at the O.K. Corral. For some reason compelled to prove beyond all doubt who is the fastest gun or die trying.
It should not always be about speed. It is about when to use it in a musical context, and about note choice, phasing, and the notes you don't use and then being able to do the speed at the right point in time for the complexity or the right spot in a solo setting.

Guys like Matthew Mills and Michael Angelo Batio.... are not very musical, and that gets very boring very quickly. As said guys like Shawn Lane and others mentioned know how to use that speed and have harnessed it in a musical way

Jim
Old 22nd March 2014
  #99
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FFTT's Avatar
 

I don't care for that whiney, over processed, endless sustain with no real
fretting hand technique, working those frets for natural sustain.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #100
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jimbridgman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT View Post
I don't care for that whiney, over processed, endless sustain with no real
fretting hand technique, working those frets for natural sustain.
LOL!

It is about very precise use of both hands, and sustain is all about the fretting hand and most of the great players I mentioned used very little "processing" as you mention and all of the sustain they get is from their hands and the instrument they choose. Did you watch any of the clips I posted?

I figured the one with Vinnie Moore would be right up your alley, he has very good control and fretting technique and gets amazing sustain just from his hands and all he uses is his guitar and amp, and his volume knob, no pedals or anything anymore. His latest work with UFO is really good too, even though that is really not my style, he does a great job with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvzjq6PkFmU

Yeah the playing may be a little whiney, but that is all the mids to push through the mix that helps it sound like that. It is all about the notes and how they are held and even vibrato that is used in between the notes that adds to the tension in the songs.
IMO of course.

I still think this is a great convo though.

Jim
Old 22nd March 2014
  #101
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FFTT's Avatar
 

Talk about complexity.

Finding the perfect rhythm sound to compliment the song.

Finding a Bass Player with a strong lead vocal capability.

Auditioning 40 FORTY Drummers to find one who could hold the pocket.
Who can also sing.

Tight timing and execution across the stage and the engineering and cross stage volume discipline
it took to capture this in a 200 seat club.



Guess what guitar amp he's using.

It's not the Blues Deluxe on right or the Cyber Twin on left.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #102
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jimbridgman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT View Post
Talk about complexity.

Finding the perfect rhythm sound to compliment the song.

Tight timing and execution across the stage and the engineering it took
to capture this in a 200 seat club.



Guess what guitar amp he's using.

It's not the Blues Deluxe on right or the Cyber Twin on left.
That is a good rhythm section. I am not a fan of that guitar sound though, it is a little too thin in a live setting for me.

You want to talk about tight complex rhythms, take a listen to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0ZrF7taMHA

Poly rhythms and very complex. it fits the song very well.

Jim
Old 22nd March 2014
  #103
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FFTT's Avatar
 

Here's a slightly better take on that Rhythm tone I was talking about.

Then the higher individual notes come in from the Cyber Twin on the left.



The amp on right is turned into the curtains so it doesn't beam the FOH who was sitting right in front of it about 30 feet back.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #104
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FFTT's Avatar
 

Jim, we're just coming from two totally different perspectives.

Complex with purpose



Sounds simple enough don't it.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #105
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Theo Stobbe's Avatar
 

Complex playing, not very complex sound.

Old 22nd March 2014
  #106
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FFTT's Avatar
 

One of the first concerts I ever went to.

Soft Machine Opening For Jimi Hendrix, Washington Hilton International Ballroom.

Old 22nd March 2014
  #107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anatta.Art View Post
lol, indeed. Because fastest is bestest!
No. Speed has to be in the service of musicality. It's art, not athletics.

Compare Malmsteen or any of his shredding brethren to a guy like Tuck Andress. Probably equally fast, but Andress consistently delights with his musicality whereas the shredders just shred.

It's the difference between playing music and an athletic competition. If I'm gonna watch sports it'll be baseball or hockey, not some guy doing finger exercises.

BTW, Is anybody around here hip to Howard Roberts?

Old 22nd March 2014
  #108
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT View Post
One of the first concerts I ever went to.

Soft Machine Opening For Jimi Hendrix, Washington Hilton International Ballroom.

NO SH*T! !!!!

I saw the Newark, New Jersey show on that same tour!
Old 23rd March 2014
  #109
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FFTT's Avatar
 

I had already worn grooves in my U.K. Polydor copy of Are You Experienced,
purchased in Germany. Mastering all of Noel Redding's Bass parts acoustically
on my Hofner 501.

Told my friends, "You gotta see this guy" They had never hear of him.

They were really glad they went!
Old 23rd March 2014
  #110
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Overtly complex is fatiguing, simple renders listeners. Want something heard, keep it simple. Simple does not have to be simpleton. The human heart pulses on a beat of 4/4 that is why people are naturally comfortable with that timing. Groove, hook, artful bridge, singable refrain are what appeal to common non musicians.

There is an argument a complex chord is also not relative to a non musicians ear, but play a simple dirty chord and people love it.
We need the funk, gotta have that funk.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #111
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Unclenny's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
BTW, Is anybody around here hip to Howard Roberts?
Absolutely.

Thanks for posting that.

I would love to have this guitar.........
Attached Thumbnails
Simple vs complex-gibson-howard-roberts-1.jpg  
Old 23rd March 2014
  #112
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FFTT's Avatar
 

Caught beautiful Esperanza Spalding last night on PBS.

She's clearly from another planet.

Definitely Avant Garde Jazz, not the stuff I would normally listen too,
but how can one not be impressed?

Out of this world melodies with what only appears to be effortless execution.

What she does between bass and vocals is much harder than most people think.

I also love it that so many musicians find employment working with her.
The ensemble was huge!
Old 23rd March 2014
  #113
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kennybro's Avatar


Speed & complexity can certainly be beautiful & musical in the right hands.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #114
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Theo Stobbe's Avatar
 

Old 24th March 2014
  #115
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Theo Stobbe's Avatar
 

To be honest, I consider it as a loss, when I post a video clip. I like the idea of talking about 'our music' and 'our gear'.
In fact it was my reason for making music anyway. To do my thing.

I like the abstractions, the square waves and considerations behind music.
Old 24th March 2014
  #116
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo S View Post
To be honest, I consider it as a loss, when I post a video clip.
I very much agree with this, and very, very rarely post clips.

This was one thread where I think clips are serving a useful purpose. It's difficult to talk about abstracts such as when speed and flair serve the art and when they do not. A simple example can say more than a thousand-word post... at least about an individual opinion on the issue.
Old 24th March 2014
  #117
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Theo Stobbe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
a thousand-word post....
Save me!


No serious, you're right.
(Simple example )

No really serious, you're right. Pfffff!
Old 24th March 2014
  #118
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
No. Speed has to be in the service of musicality. It's art, not athletics.

Compare Malmsteen or any of his shredding brethren to a guy like Tuck Andress. Probably equally fast, but Andress consistently delights with his musicality whereas the shredders just shred.

It's the difference between playing music and an athletic competition. If I'm gonna watch sports it'll be baseball or hockey, not some guy doing finger exercises.
Of course. I guess the sarcasm wasn't as obvious as I had hoped? But, well said =)
Old 24th March 2014
  #119
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I spend a lot of time erasing. When I sketch I have the same impulse- to draw the entire image then erase everything superfluous. In the most extreme example, I recorded several tracks of guitar for a song then started erasing- destructive editing. At the end of the night I ended up with one very nice chord with big vibrato. That really was the only necessary part.

I'm a minimalist in life as well, so I guess it's no surprise. I hate clutter. I don't understand being comforted by "more". Anybody else like to erase and mute?
Old 25th March 2014
  #120
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Soooo, aaaa, did anyone happen to notice Malmsteen scored an entire orchestra piece and played along with them? I get fatigued listening to a lot of it but really, the chap is quite amazing at what he does. I sure as hell cannot do what he does. So I am far not to insult him. Saying he cannot write, I mean seriously??
Amazon.com: Concerto Suite for Electric Guitar and Orchestra: Yngwie Malmsteen: Movies & TV
Even my wife recognizes the chap can rip and is rather amazing. It is not easy listening to be sure. But fellow is a unique talent. He wrote all the music.

We all like different music. I can appreciate anything that is good (depends what "good" means I guess). Songs need to have dynamics and build to be rather epic renderings. Being complex or simple just for the sake of either seems a little too contrived for me. Seems like the tune itself should be the tell of how fast or slow, busy or open, it needs to range.
I cannot do that demon speed sweep picking stuff myself but I can appreciate the talent. While I play more heavy fusion it is amass with slow to fast, simple to complex just depending on the groove, and feel of the tune.
Seems like the more funk, groove, feel, in the pocket or whatever it is slow enough to allow it. What floats my boat is the art of improvisation and spontaneous playing. I give no conscious though to being complex or simple it is what it is when it comes out. I like most of the players mentioned here some I had not heard of. But I am loathe to cut someone down as a musician. We are all just different.
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