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Full range guitar sound
Old 13th March 2014
  #121
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"The notes on a guitar comprise almost 4 octaves of the 10 octaves that humans can theoretically hear. There are 2 more below the guitar and 4 more above. The ones above are experienced as harmonics and tone color (as well as fundamentals for notes played on higher instruments). Even if you're playing a note whose fundamental is 250 Hz (about open B), it produces harmonics at integer multiples all the way through the frequency spectrum, at 500 Hz, 750 Hz, 1000 Hz (1 kHz), 1.25 k, 1.5k, 1.75 k, 2k, etc., up to 20k. By adjusting higher bands you affect the balance of the harmonics, which affects your tone. You want to develop a feel for what the various ranges sound like when boosted or cut."

From Tuck's website
Old 13th March 2014
  #122
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FFTT's Avatar
 

Absolutely, if you're going after those jazzy clean tones, I'd run a vintage Hiwatt through a full range 15" or mixed 12" cabs.
Old 13th March 2014
  #123
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That's not Jazzy to my ears, I think he'll need a tweeter.
Old 13th March 2014
  #124
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Actually parts are quite clearly Latin Jazz influenced with classical and even
some advanced technique, but he's not doing anything a really good amp and speaker couldn't handle.

That sound comes from a sweet mellow guitar and expert execution.
Old 13th March 2014
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edoardo View Post
That's not Jazzy to my ears, I think he'll need a tweeter.
Hmm, maybe your laptop does.

Tuck plays with Meyer active speaker.
There's a lot of 'air' in his notes.

(or was it your phone, don't lie :-) )
Old 13th March 2014
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo S View Post

"The notes on a guitar comprise almost 4 octaves of the 10 octaves that humans can theoretically hear. There are 2 more below the guitar and 4 more above. The ones above are experienced as harmonics and tone color (as well as fundamentals for notes played on higher instruments). Even if you're playing a note whose fundamental is 250 Hz (about open B), it produces harmonics at integer multiples all the way through the frequency spectrum, at 500 Hz, 750 Hz, 1000 Hz (1 kHz), 1.25 k, 1.5k, 1.75 k, 2k, etc., up to 20k. By adjusting higher bands you affect the balance of the harmonics, which affects your tone. You want to develop a feel for what the various ranges sound like when boosted or cut."

From Tuck's website
Even with harmonics at the highest frequency of 1.3k for their base note even third level harmonics won't reach 20k, period.

This is basic stuff.

Just because you boost 11k with whatever eq just means you are boosting things like reverb, and anomalies... you are also adding noise at the same time, since the db level of things that high are much lower level, so you are raising the noise floor in those areas.

Jim
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Old 13th March 2014
  #127
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What I expect now is: "Never put flowers on the top of an Aphex Compellor, it's not done, you might be a pr..."
Old 13th March 2014
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbridgman View Post
so you are raising the noise floor in those areas.
Your noise floor.

C'mon Jim. This is not your cup of tea. Go somewhere else! They might need you urgent! You can't be everywhere!
(Do your 'Bradshaw vs poor man's Bradshaw' thing. Let me guess: you're the rich one, who plays best.)
Old 13th March 2014
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo S View Post
Your noise floor.

This is basic, basic sound phenomenon.
Sounds like you need to study up on boosting lower level signals with an eq, what that does.

Jim
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Old 13th March 2014
  #130
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Blast9's Avatar
Come on chaps - let's keep it respectful and on (an interesting) topic.

No bickering please!

-


Two guys that spring to mind with "clean full range-sounding" tones are Frank Zappa and Steve Vai.

I remember Vai back in the Passion And Warfare era talking about his approach to super clean DI sound (with his Eventide of course). T be honest I can't remember the details.

Before that he used to tweak the tone of his Carvin 100 XB with the built-in active graphic EQ.

This was through is 4 x 12 mind you... Not a full range system.

Nowadays we have FRFR amp/cab systems for Fractal etc.

One of the keys to having a flat, wide frequency signal from the guitar is a very high input impedance 5meg Ohm or more.
Old 13th March 2014
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbridgman View Post
This is basic, basic sound phenomenon.
Sounds like you need to study up on boosting lower level signals with an eq, what that does.

Jim
When you start with noise, it gets worse.
Tuck warns for boosting. Better cut.
Old 13th March 2014
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blast9 View Post
(an interesting) topic.
Thnx Blast9.

I do not report trolling. All i can do is using my real name. The rest is up to others.
Old 13th March 2014
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blast9 View Post
One of the keys to having a flat, wide frequency signal from the guitar is a very high input impedance 5meg Ohm or more.
Thnx, I will verify!
Old 13th March 2014
  #134
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jimbridgman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo S View Post
When you start with noise, it gets worse.
Tuck warns for boosting. Better cut.
You obviously don't understand.

If you have a frequency at lets say 10k and you have little to no signal there, and you use some device that keeps that space in the recording (no high filter), and the peak signal is -22db and you want more of that and above you are adding noise, period.

Has nothing to do with noise in noise out.

I am pointing out that with the right stuff meant for purpose, and you understand how to use, this won't have to come into play.

The statements you keep making are just regurgitating Tuck, that tells me you need to do a lot more reading and learning.

Also not jumping back at every post every person has made in here, not just mine, is part of the reason people react the way they have... attitude is everything

I am out.

Jim
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Old 13th March 2014
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbridgman View Post
The statements you keep making are just regurgitating Tuck,
Tuck is for me a starting point, reference (in this discussion). Regurgitating what is the truth is fine. This thread was for 'what next?'.
I do like pristine guitar music. That might be a taste.

That you are out might be a good thing.
I have not good advice for you.
I don't know you.

All the best.
Old 13th March 2014
  #136
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Winging It.



The camera mic self noise is producing the top end hiss, but as far as allowing the instrument and player to shine through nothing on this planet equals big block amps with lots of Amish iron in those transformers.

I'm not sure how many octaves are covered here, but the camera mic did an O.K. demo job of showing the natural cleans.

I would have cut the mids back a bit on the amp, which caused some of that bloom to distortion, but the cleans just spectacular. 8x10" CTS AlNiCos in a deep 16" chambered cab.

256 watts RMS into 4 Ohms.
Hiwatt DR-201 circuit EQ'd as a bass amp but perfectly stellar with guitar.

4XKT88's the best there is for cleans.

Another method of extending range.

Marshall 100 He's totally just jamming here

Old 13th March 2014
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT View Post
KT88's
You impressed me again! Indeed: KT88 (smooth) --->
But . . . . not on topic!
Old 13th March 2014
  #138
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FFTT's Avatar
 

Actually, I'm trying to stay on topic.

A full range guitar sound encompasses sparking clean, warm cleans to crunch to classic lower gain to full on high gain.

It also encompasses using a variety of instruments appropriate to the song content.

The only limitations are the player, the gear they play through and the equipment used to capture the performance.
Old 13th March 2014
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT View Post
A full range guitar sound encompasses sparking clean, warm cleans to crunch to classic lower gain to full on high gain.
Yes, i've noticed, you and probably a lot others do have that comprehension of 'full range' in mind.

What I mean is a full, orchestral, balanced, with air notes within, pristine, hifi, full bass, top end high, transparent, lively, vibrant . . . eh . . sound.

But, I have to admit, you've got me curious for old electronics.
Old 13th March 2014
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo S View Post
Yes, i've noticed, you and probably a lot others do have that comprehension of 'full range' in mind.

What I mean is a full, orchestral, balanced, with air notes within, pristine, hifi, full bass, top end high, transparent, lively, vibrant . . . eh . . sound.

But, I have to admit, you've got me curious for old electronics.
One thing that could help is running Fralin Unbuckers with a single coil tap in one of your guitars.

That alone will give you a much broader selection of available tones.

John's guitar in the Winging It clip was 3 Mini Buckers
in a one piece guitar.
The Black LP is Shaw PAFS
Strat Plus is Gold Lace Sensors

Actually when it comes to considering John for tracking work, my primary
focus is not on his speed or precise digital dexterity, but his slide work.

He's a monster slide player.
Old 13th March 2014
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT View Post
in one of your guitars.
Haha, in one of your guitars! And then guitar changing on high speed while playing a ballad on a balcony!
I appreciate all collateral info. I will study a lot next month!

AAMoF: I play a HF2 with coil taps.
Old 13th March 2014
  #142
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Blast9's Avatar
Theo, regarding High impedance inputs - check out the Creation Labs MW1 Studio Tool D.I./reamper.

Possibly not what you need per se but a very cool piece of kit - very high input impedance (up to 10 Meg Ohms), high headroom and wide bandwidth
Old 13th March 2014
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinderwet View Post
Full range guitar sound = acoustic guitar.

End of thread (I wish, lol).
Ok Tinderwet, when I hear you play in a room I hear a lot of beautiful air notes.('hear' or 'being aware')
I want to hear that all the time.
Old 13th March 2014
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blast9 View Post
Creation Labs MW1 Studio Tool D.I./reamper.
Thank you! Listed!
Old 13th March 2014
  #145
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Low Impedance pickups :

Tommy Doyle low impedance PU system (last I talked to Tom they were out production) I have them on my Gibson ES Artist, they were his answer to installing pre amps in guitars, were designed so you can input them into a console with out added interface. I love them wish I could get more for other guitars I have. Work just fine with a Guitar amp back off the Volume control half way or more for clean turn up for dirt, Has switches that give single coil sound and a more hyped up humbucker tone, or boost though the leads off the PUs are only two conductors. Plus mine has a varitone which not all of them had.




EMGs and other like them, active PUs people either love them (mostly metal heads) or hate them (described as lifeless and sterile). They were the result of people worrying about noise at the advent of digital recording. Not sure if they qualify as full range?

Les Paul Professional low impedance PUs need a interface trans former or Preamp to drive a normal Guitar amp, I have no experience with them, I think Les wanted them to go direct to the Board like the TW system above, A friend had the Base version which was a Killer Base, Beautiful full range detailed articulate, Weighed a ton and a half. Three pin cannon connector output.

I think Alembic Pickups, in some of their guitars, were also low impedance, with the dummy coil in between for noise canceling but also had on board active electronics. I have no experience here either.

I remember a cut on the Frank Zappa Shut Up And Play Your Guitar compilation were he played an Acoustic Black Widow Guitar with EMGs DI into the Board, This was a totally unique FZ sound for me and sounded almost acoustic to me, I listened to it over and over mesmerized by it. Can't remember the name of it and All my vinyl is in storage. That guitar may or may not have had on board preamp in it, fellow Gear slut Jim Williams might know.
Old 14th March 2014
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allphourus View Post
Low Impedance pickups :

Tommy Doyle low impedance PU system (last I talked to Tom they were out production) I have them on my Gibson ES Artist, they were his answer to installing pre amps in guitars, were designed so you can input them into a console with out added interface. I love them wish I could get more for other guitars I have. Work just fine with a Guitar amp back off the Volume control half way or more for clean turn up for dirt, Has switches that give single coil sound and a more hyped up humbucker tone, or boost though the leads off the PUs are only two conductors. Plus mine has a varitone which not all of them had.




EMGs and other like them, active PUs people either love them (mostly metal heads) or hate them (described as lifeless and sterile). They were the result of people worrying about noise at the advent of digital recording. Not sure if they qualify as full range?

Les Paul Professional low impedance PUs need a interface trans former or Preamp to drive a normal Guitar amp, I have no experience with them, I think Les wanted them to go direct to the Board like the TW system above, A friend had the Base version which was a Killer Base, Beautiful full range detailed articulate, Weighed a ton and a half. Three pin cannon connector output.

I think Alembic Pickups, in some of their guitars, were also low impedance, with the dummy coil in between for noise canceling but also had on board active electronics. I have no experience here either.

I remember a cut on the Frank Zappa Shut Up And Play Your Guitar compilation were he played an Acoustic Black Widow Guitar with EMGs DI into the Board, This was a totally unique FZ sound for me and sounded almost acoustic to me, I listened to it over and over mesmerized by it. Can't remember the name of it and All my vinyl is in storage. That guitar may or may not have had on board preamp in it, fellow Gear slut Jim Williams might know.
Allphourus, thanks a lot. Those names always had my sympathy, Alembic, EMG and those low impedance guys. And the 'direct in the board' approach like Andy Summers from the Police, Joe Jackson Band, etc.
All these worked at the PA/Hifi/studio side of traditional guitar amplifying.
Tuck took it a step further and embraced equipment, designed specific for recording or broadcasting.
But indeed, the first step seems to be low impedance awareness.
Old 14th March 2014
  #147
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT View Post
John Eppstein appears to know quite a bit, but has NEVER ONCE submitted a sound clip, recording credit, studio session photos, control room photos, studio gear list, studio name, anything to back up his claims.

While I appreciate some of his contributions here, I will not stand for his rude
trolling behavior and he knows it!

As far as I'm concerned, he's playing a Daisy Rock in his bedroom until he comes up with some tangible proof of the work he has done.

At least I do have clips to back up my comments.



https://soundcloud.com/ogredaddy/hawaiian-spaghetti

I did this short loop clip, in a few minutes just messing around for the first time with Reason 3. The mod wheel is set to max bend, more than an octave. Keyboard was a cheap $99.00 M-Audio Keystation 49e.

Macca Bass, Doubled Kit, Steel Guitar patch and some drone strings.
I've mentioned quite a bit of the gear that I own and have owned in the past. I could post a full list of what I have now but really, why bother? My studio is based around a 24 track Studer A-800 MKIII and a 32 channel (64 input) Soundcraft console with moving fader automation. Outboard includes compression from Daking, Spectrasonics, Audio&Design Recording, and Allison Research/Valley People, as well as some cheaper stuff. I've got a couple of vintage Altec passive EQs (the ones the Motown mastering EQ was based on) a couple of whites, a couple of AD&R Scamp EQs, and a couple of Orange Counties I haven't hooked up yet because they need power supplies. I'm not sure how many mics I have any more, well over 40, including Beyers, a pre-Sennheiser Neumann, Pearlmans, and original brass capsule C12A, Various RE series EVs including 2 RE20s, blah, blah, blah. I've reviewed a good deal of my stuff here if you bothered to look it up.

I've got maybe 20 or so guitars, a few old ones, a bunch of inexpensive but good new ones. When I was young I had a number of really classic vintage guitars, most of which were stolen, which I've mentioned at various times.

Concerning "clips" - I don't believe in giving my music away for free. I sent out some rough mixes to people some time ago who expressed an interest and got burned very badly in a very nasty way (which required legal intervention) by a certain person who SHOULD have had more integrity than to behave in the way he did, so now I'm very careful about who I give stuff to. With one exception I don't post clips on forums. The one exception is a song an earlier incarnation of my band contributed to a compilation CD for an event I was involved with. It's a little rockabilly thing that we threw together over a couple of days as a freebie. I'll post it if you want it.

Other than that, the album is finally almost finished (one more song needs mixing), then it goes out for mastering and I'll be shopping it to labels. When it comes out you can buy it if you want.
Old 14th March 2014
  #148
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbridgman View Post
I think that is the issue right there. It seems that there are not many who share this dream, but have immense experience with guitar and sound, and are giving you their knowledge and experience. I get it that you are older and have experience as well, but it sounds to me like you are overlooking some very important constraints.

1) It does not matter what you plug a guitar into be it a guitar amp, a high end hi fi amp, an SSL console with a DI, etc... you will only get from at most 80HZ on a six string (low E is 82.4HZ) to 8K MAX, and 2-8K is really more of your "presence" than anything as the guitar notes themselves on a 6 string 24 fret guitar will max out at around 1,318K at the 24th fret high e string) And I used the SSL example since it can handle 20-20K.
Well, not exactly.

There are aspects to playing the guitar (especially guitars with a full body) that can produce tones well below the lowest notes of the strings. I'm talking about mostly percussive effects, which some players do incorporate in their performance.

As far as the 8K upper limit, well, not entirely. There are harmonics in the signal that can go well above that point that make a difference to the timbre of an instrument. Some of these are even above to alleged 20K upper limit of hearing - the harmonics themselves are inaudible as notes but they have an effect on the overall waveform which is audible. That's why some very well respected and rather expensive equalizers have an "air band" that goes to 40K.

Some people can't perceive these things, or at least lack the training to hear the difference. Others can. It's simplistic and disingenuous to claim that just because one person can't hear something nobody can.

Quote:

So this brings the issue of the whole "Full range system" into play, as all you are doing is having space in the frequency spectrum that the guitar is not really using and only harmonic frequencies are going to be in those other ranges, and this can cause havoc on other instruments either live or in a recording. If you are recording the engineer is going to scoop out all of that "extra crap" from the signal anyhow, as it will just add unwanted frequency build up, and then he will also have to most likely "sculpt" the sound to fit in anyhow, so that "extra" you might have gained ends up lost in the mix.
Sorry, no.

"Bandwidth limited" recording is an internet fallacy. If an instrument is properly recorded on high quality equipment and mixed by a skilled engineer there is no need to "chop out" or "carve" frequency response to "make things fit". If one thing steps on another you haven't got your balances right. Many, many absolutely stellar recordings were done on equipment that lacked any real EQ whatsoever, mixed live and direct to tape or disc. Many of the greatest jazz recordings in history were recorded straight to the cutting lathe.

Quote:
2) All speakers have certain frequencies that they produce better than others, so say an EV 15 inch really can handle low to mid range pretty well, but higher frequencies, it tends to not handle well, so then a crossover needs to be added to add in a mid and tweeter, and that can cause phasing and other time issues as well depending on the crossover, even some of the best still have these issues.
That doesn't really have anything to do with the OP's question, which deal with high quality reproduction systems, not conventional guitar amps.

I haven't yet found any exact descriptions of Tuck Andress's live rig, but his recording chain is very pure and very high quality. It is also extremely wide bandwidth. I would assume his live system follows suit.


I'll say this though - from what I've read of his approach there is no way to get there on a budget. He uses the absolute best audio (not musical instrument) gear he can so that it doesn't interfere with his technique, hence my previous comment that the energy would be better allocated to working on technique than worrying about his gear.

When your technique reaches the point where you're spending a lot of time in top recording studios, the gear choices (other than choice of the guitar itself) will become obvious. And you're probably not going to find much useful information hanging out on internet gear forums.

There is no Magic Bullet. And if you had his rig without having his technique it would do you no good at all.
Old 14th March 2014
  #149
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT View Post
I was trying to get back on topic discussing "full range guitar sound"
just showing a few examples from just one of my amps.
But, like Jim's post, that doesn't have much or anything to do with the original question.

Probably he's not going to get much that's useful from most of the "usual suspects" in this forum - everybody is too oriented toward various flavors (and simulations of flavors) of conventional guitar amp technology, when what he's asking about is totally out of that box.

The question might be better posed in the high end audio forum - there'll be more people there familiar with that level of technology.
Old 14th March 2014
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
I'll say this though - from what I've read of his approach there is no way to get there on a budget. He uses the absolute best audio (not musical instrument) gear he can so that it doesn't interfere with his technique, hence my previous comment that the energy would be better allocated to working on technique than worrying about his gear.

When your technique reaches the point where you're spending a lot of time in top recording studios, the gear choices (other than choice of the guitar itself) will become obvious. And you're probably not going to find much useful information hanging out on internet gear forums.

There is no Magic Bullet. And if you had his rig without having his technique it would do you no good at all.
You use a lot of assumptions:

1 I never talked about my budget.
2 I never said I wanted to emulate Tuck's sound.
3 I never gave you hints about my skills.
4 Talent does not automatically 'spend time in top studio's'
5 The gear of Tuck is not exceptional expensive.
6 His gear choice was NOT obvious.
7 I find useful info, hanging around on internet forums.

I think YOU have not the rig that could do YOU good and now you are frustrated.
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