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Full range guitar sound
Old 13th March 2014
  #91
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Theo Stobbe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Why would he? I might have missed something in my research but as far as I've been able to find out he uses a totally pure recording chain. Why would he use any MIDI tomfoolery? If I've missed something, please give references.
Sorry, it was about your reply to FFTT.
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Old 13th March 2014
  #92
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Theo Stobbe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Oxymoron.
?????

I am old too, Mr. Eppstein.
I practice a lot.
I work hard.

You do not believe me?

You did not have a mm answer to my question.
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Old 13th March 2014
  #93
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Theo Stobbe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT View Post
I've played pedal steel slide on a keyboard using the mod wheel for bends
Hi FFTT, please explain your techniques to bring some harmony in this 'getting wilder' conversation.
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Old 13th March 2014
  #94
Lives for gear
 

Thanks for steppin in John. I am aware of the existence of highend and Audiophile tube equipment and poweramps. i am aware guitar amps distort cause they are designed to. I have also happened to hear noisy SS and IC equipment.

I thus would like to be told what is the highpitched noise we hear on the demo I posted.

Thanks best!
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
So that's why some of the most expensive Hifi amps in the world use tubes? Because they make noise?

PTOOIHGBO!*

You need to stop getting your information from the publicity literature of prosumer audio gear of questionable quality and integrity (and the magazine and internet flacks and pundits who parrot their spiel.)

As an example, the cleanest, quietest and probably most expensive audio compressor in the world is an entirely tube unit. That's the SR-71 Blackbird from Tube Equipment Corporation (which currently retails at a mere $7,000), which was utterly breathtaking when I auditioned it - and so silent you wouldn't know it was on.

There are tube power amps used by some of the finest mastering labs that cost upwards of $10,000 each. They don't use them because they're noisy or distorted.









* - "Pull The Other One, It Has Got Bells On", an Anglophone reference to Morris Dancing widely used in the Terry Pratchett Diskworld novels.
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Old 13th March 2014
  #95
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Theo Stobbe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo S View Post
Time to meet some equal minded.
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Old 13th March 2014
  #96
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo S View Post
"'Musical' is in the gear"? That's gear fetishism (generated by music industry, who's primarily target is not specific getting 'musical'.)
"Musical as being (for example) the difference between a Strad and a plywood violin.

For most, but not all electric guitar players, which is the demographic that is primarily served by this forum.

Quote:
(Colaiuta playing on a garbage can --->musical)

"'Musical' is in the playing"? Yes
"'Hifi' means 'high fidelity'"? Yes

'Hifi' has no musician's market and I like that. They are very competitive to be the best. Which is good.
I think it is good to formulate your own wishes. It has nothing to do with re-invent the wheel.s
Not MY wishes. I'm talking about the history of the art. There are always mavericks, some of them exceptional, but that's not really what this forum deals with, is it?

Quote:
People here are tend to call certain equipment 'classic'. In my opinion that is just a marketing term to give you some roots.
Nonsense. Nobody is making '60s equipment now (not real stuff). In terms of current production, some is accurate, some is not. Ypu need experience to know the difference.

So what?

Quote:
(Classic are the Romans, not a studio in the sixtie
FWIW, "Classical" in music has nothing at all to do with the Romans, unless you're talking about sculpture (studied that when my dad made me when I was in high school (I hated it at the time), you're wrong.) "Classical" (in music)refers to the period of Western European music around 1750 to 1820 - the time of Mozart and Beethoven.

FYI, my aunt, Hilda Pinson, was one of the foremost teachers of Classical piano in NYC during the '50s and '60s. I was a major in Music Theory for two years in college before I realized it has nothing whatsoever to do with performance of contemporary popular music.

however that has nothing to do with "classic" equipment, which terminology has more in common with classic cars. I doubt you're an expert on either, but you're welcome to prove me wrong.

I'm not concerned with what "most people around here" call anything - I'[m 63 years old and have experience from classical music theory to punk rock. I've been involved in audio since around 1965 -66. I could give a damn about "what people think" but frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. (I assume you get the reference.)
Old 13th March 2014
  #97
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Theo Stobbe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Oxymoron.
I am Dutch. I wikipediate the 'oxymoron' thing and I give you some credits (because of your age )

What I read about Tuck, it has been a (lucky) struggle for him to find and improve his equipment and I happened to like that too. That's all.

There's nothing to emulate as far as I'm concerned. I like his 'approach'. That's all. I am happy with my playing. I improve even. I teach. I have a small shop for classical guitars. I DO like class a amps a lot. WOW! But that was not my question at this point.
Old 13th March 2014
  #98
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Theo Stobbe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo S View Post
I am Dutch. I wikipediaat the 'oxymoron' thing and I give you some credits (because of your age )
I have to reconsider, I thought you were 80!

You have your background and you doubt mine.
Well, ok then!
Old 13th March 2014
  #99
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Theo Stobbe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Not MY wishes. I'm talking about the history of the art.
This thread is about My wishes. The future of My art.

(Funny, this happened to me a lot in shops in the past. They start to talk about THEIR wishes, calling it 'advice'.
Which reminds me to a slogan for becoming an engineer: "Are you ready for supporting somebody's dream?")

And leave your aunt Hilda out of it, pls!
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Old 13th March 2014
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allphourus View Post
Chakewalk
You got my attention!

Old 13th March 2014
  #101
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FFTT's Avatar
 

John Eppstein appears to know quite a bit, but has NEVER ONCE submitted a sound clip, recording credit, studio session photos, control room photos, studio gear list, studio name, anything to back up his claims.

While I appreciate some of his contributions here, I will not stand for his rude
trolling behavior and he knows it!

As far as I'm concerned, he's playing a Daisy Rock in his bedroom until he comes up with some tangible proof of the work he has done.

At least I do have clips to back up my comments.



https://soundcloud.com/ogredaddy/hawaiian-spaghetti

I did this short loop clip, in a few minutes just messing around for the first time with Reason 3. The mod wheel is set to max bend, more than an octave. Keyboard was a cheap $99.00 M-Audio Keystation 49e.

Macca Bass, Doubled Kit, Steel Guitar patch and some drone strings.
Old 13th March 2014
  #102
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Theo Stobbe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by allphourus View Post
I have a copy somewhere in my storage unit on analog cassette but it has a problem in that Bill (Paschick- Rain Reocording/ Computers) who played the percussion on it (that we did together real time, no click track, as I tracked the guitar part) went back into the computer ( Chakewalk I think) and fixed the timing on the percussion which placed it out of sync with the guitar. so I'd rather not share it, though Bill might still have the Original Digital master.
After all, this project deserves to be listened to! Eventually do it again! Since you connect with philosophers, it will even be better!
Old 13th March 2014
  #103
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Theo Stobbe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT View Post
John Eppstein appears to know quite a bit, but has NEVER ONCE submitted a sound clip, recording credit, studio session photos, control room photos, studio gear list, studio name, anything to back up his claims.

While I appreciate some of his contributions here, I will not stand for his rude
trolling behavior and he knows it!

As far as I'm concerned, he's playing a Daisy Rock in his bedroom until he comes up with some tangible proof of the work he has done.

At least I do have clips to back up my comments.



https://soundcloud.com/ogredaddy/hawaiian-spaghetti

I did this short loop clip, in a few minutes just messing around for the first time with Reason 3. The mod wheel is set to max bend, more than an octave. Keyboard was a cheap $99.00 M-Audio Keystation 49e.

Macca Bass, Doubled Kit, Steel Guitar patch and some drone strings.
Ok, mystery solved, no real lapsteel involved. (My mind was already wandering direction 'Doepfer voltage to midi extravaganza'.)
Thanks for sharing!
Old 13th March 2014
  #104
Gear Guru
 
FFTT's Avatar
 

I much prefer real guitars and fine hand wired amps, but I can create something at least musical by any means at my disposal.

As far as the tech behind it, I'm nothing more than a chimpanzee with a paint brush. I have no clue what I'm doing but somehow manage to create in spite of my technological ignorance.
Old 13th March 2014
  #105
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I was trying to read through this thread and I have no idea what is being discussed. I need an updated magic decoder ring.
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Old 13th March 2014
  #106
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FFTT's Avatar
 

Just a few examples of the range of tones available through just one fine hand built amp.

Modest signal chain. TAB57 & AKG D-1000 straight up into M-Audio Project Mix I/O as the interface.

iMovie capture patched through the interface.





Old 13th March 2014
  #107
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jimbridgman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo S View Post
This thread is about My wishes. The future of My art.

(Funny, this happened to me a lot in shops in the past. They start to talk about THEIR wishes, calling it 'advice'.
Which reminds me to a slogan for becoming an engineer: "Are you ready for supporting somebody's dream?")

And leave your aunt Hilda out of it, pls!
I think that is the issue right there. It seems that there are not many who share this dream, but have immense experience with guitar and sound, and are giving you their knowledge and experience. I get it that you are older and have experience as well, but it sounds to me like you are overlooking some very important constraints.

1) It does not matter what you plug a guitar into be it a guitar amp, a high end hi fi amp, an SSL console with a DI, etc... you will only get from at most 80HZ on a six string (low E is 82.4HZ) to 8K MAX, and 2-8K is really more of your "presence" than anything as the guitar notes themselves on a 6 string 24 fret guitar will max out at around 1,318K at the 24th fret high e string) And I used the SSL example since it can handle 20-20K.

So this brings the issue of the whole "Full range system" into play, as all you are doing is having space in the frequency spectrum that the guitar is not really using and only harmonic frequencies are going to be in those other ranges, and this can cause havoc on other instruments either live or in a recording. If you are recording the engineer is going to scoop out all of that "extra crap" from the signal anyhow, as it will just add unwanted frequency build up, and then he will also have to most likely "sculpt" the sound to fit in anyhow, so that "extra" you might have gained ends up lost in the mix.

2) All speakers have certain frequencies that they produce better than others, so say an EV 15 inch really can handle low to mid range pretty well, but higher frequencies, it tends to not handle well, so then a crossover needs to be added to add in a mid and tweeter, and that can cause phasing and other time issues as well depending on the crossover, even some of the best still have these issues.

3) I get that you are looking for something different, so why not just try a bunch of stuff out and see what you like and not like, then tell people about that.. like Hey guys I just got this and tried it out and it does this for me, anyone else tried and liked this... This give you a talking point and and you don't come off like a prick, which I kind of have to admit that you kind of seem like from your posts in this thread and the other one you posted.

I am not trying to be a jerk, just saying that there are a lot of wholes in your theory and I think you need to do some research and then possibly come back with your findings rather than what you have done here. It seems to me like you are a little unsure how to do what you really want, but have a beginning idea to start with. So start with those things and just keep reporting back when you do and your experience(s) with it. I am sure others will jump in with their feed back. Also clips posted up here help as well add to the credibility and help others to help you, and belittle you, but just let that roll off your back.

Jim
Old 13th March 2014
  #108
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Theo Stobbe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT View Post
Just a few examples of the range of tones available through just one fine hand built amp.

Modest signal chain. TAB57 & AKG D-1000 straight up into M-Audio Project Mix I/O as the interface.

iMovie capture patched through the interface.





Three times WOW!

But . . . still hijacking

Ok FFTT, stay here, eventually change my thread name.

People will be thankful !
Old 13th March 2014
  #109
Gear Guru
 
FFTT's Avatar
 

I was trying to get back on topic discussing "full range guitar sound"
just showing a few examples from just one of my amps.
Old 13th March 2014
  #110
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Theo Stobbe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbridgman View Post
come off like a prick, which I kind of have to admit that you kind of seem like from your posts in this thread and the other one you posted.
Thanks Jim.

(oxymoron, prick, whats next?)
Old 13th March 2014
  #111
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jimbridgman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo S View Post
Three times WOW!

But . . . still hijacking

Ok FFTT, stay here, eventually change my thread name.

People will be thankful !
And that is the point I was also trying to make. You can get great "full range" sounds from proper guitar equipment, and do not need to get things that were not really meant for something other than that. You just need to try some stuff out or find clips of something that floats your boat and see if you can find that piece of gear to play with, or better yet find someone you know who has it and try it out.

These are just thoughts, since everyone has their own interpretation on things.

Jim
Old 13th March 2014
  #112
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Tinderwet's Avatar
Full range guitar sound = acoustic guitar.

End of thread (I wish, lol).
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Old 13th March 2014
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinderwet View Post
Full range guitar sound = acoustic guitar.

End of thread (I wish, lol).
Yes, you wish.
Old 13th March 2014
  #114
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Theo Stobbe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbridgman View Post
And that is the point
I was not asking for your points.

I was asking for people who did like the "hifi path" for guitar amplifying.
If you want to make points (about who's a prick or whatever, I will not read or react to it), have your own little topic.
Old 13th March 2014
  #115
Gear Guru
 
FFTT's Avatar
 

Hey Jim,

When I'm running my EVM12L with a blend top end speaker like my Fanes,

I'm just wired series Two 8 Ohm speakers wired for a 16 Ohm load.

No crossover needed. I just let the speakers do their thing.

Running separate 15" & 2X10" cabs off one amp is totally doable.

As long as all cabs & speakers can handle the amp's output.
Then the natural frequency response takes over, usually with the EV trying
to dominate because its power hungry, but the companion speakers, still
act to smooth out the EV's mids and adds way more detail to the top end.

You can go for a smooth compression AlNiCo, crushed glass AlNiCo,
or a bell like Ceramic driver as the topper.

Some speakers do better at low volumes, some need to be pushed a bit.
Old 13th March 2014
  #116
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Theo Stobbe's Avatar
 

@FFTT

I do like your attitude on musicianship. I really think our concept of 'full range' differs. That doesn't matter!
As I said, I'm a class a admirer (played Laney Lionheart 410) and I will search for more, since I am full time musician.
I play for ten years ballads in a duo with my wife singer. I'm into Holdsworthian things my whole life. I like Bartok and Debusy, Marc Ducret, Richard Hallebeek, Terje Rypdal, etc.

And Tuck Andress.
His approach as far as the electronics concerned.

You are a hijacker. That's probably how to become Gear Guru at Gearslutz.
Theo Stobbe is a prick says Jim whatshisname.
Old 13th March 2014
  #117
Gear Guru
 
FFTT's Avatar
 

In Spite of some loose playing and nothing more than a camera mic at 30 feet,
You can hear from the direct tracks and this jam, that the amp and speaker
combination as well as how hard you are pushing them all determines the outcome.

Here the Bad Cat is DIMED! But pre gain is only at 9:30 mild cut on mids too.



I'm literally using John to help me break in the new AXA12.

I figured he would give it a proper break in thrashing.
Old 13th March 2014
  #118
Gear Guru
 
FFTT's Avatar
 

A fine amp should be able to cover any genre or playing style you throw at it and do so while allowing the natural voice of the instrument to shine through.

There are infinite variables in preamp and power amp designs as well as the design of the speaker enclosure and the speakers and how much you throw at them.

I encourage experimentation, but also respect what went into iconic legacy
tones.

You just draw from the tone pallet in front of you and do your best.

If you want a Reference quality guitar amp in EU,
find a vintage Hiwatt DR-504 or DR-103.
Choose speakers for your application.
Old 13th March 2014
  #119
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jimbridgman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT View Post
Hey Jim,

When I'm running my EVM12L with a blend top end speaker like my Fanes,

I'm just wired series Two 8 Ohm speakers wired for a 16 Ohm load.

No crossover needed. I just let the speakers do their thing.

Running separate 15" & 2X10" cabs off one amp is totally doable.

As long as all cabs & speakers can handle the amp's output.
Then the natural frequency response takes over, usually with the EV trying
to dominate because its power hungry, but the companion speakers, still
act to smooth out the EV's mids and adds way more detail to the top end.

You can go for a smooth compression AlNiCo, crushed glass AlNiCo,
or a bell like Ceramic driver as the topper.

Some speakers do better at low volumes, some need to be pushed a bit.
Hey FFTT,

Right and that was part of my earlier point. You are using gear that is properly made for guitar, and not something beyond that as the OP has been pointing to.

I agree that you can get a great full range sound from those. What I was getting at is the fact that to get 20-20K you WiLL need crossovers and multi speaker configuration, it was more of a point that there are holes in the OP's thinking, that guitar products can't do the job. I am right there with you FFTT. It is just that it should be pretty obvious that guitar products should be able to get a great full range "guitar" sound, since it is meant to handle ALL of the frequencies a guitar produces.

Jim
Old 13th March 2014
  #120
Gear Guru
 
FFTT's Avatar
 

Here's my friend John back in the 90's working with Led Zeppelin - Jimi Hendrix producer Eddie Kramer.

Kramer can definitely create a very broad range of guitar tones.





Especially running a pair of Bradshaw moded Marshalls, slaved to a 500 watt
SS power amp through a pair of 15" drivers. About 1300 watts RMS.
:-)
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