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Full range guitar sound
Old 11th March 2014
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo S View Post
Ever tried a Fender Jazz King? 15 inch speaker, heavy, not my hifi target, but it might work for you. Takes pedal nice it seems.
I don't know. you are afraid of stuff that says "guitar"...?
I'm afraid of stuff that says "jazz", the same way.

I'd think about some custom speaker cab instead. like an 8"+15" or an 6"+15" instead of a 12". The role of the speakers in guitar tone is always too underestimated.

The Palmer cab sim I've posted the demo of seems really versatile. Like, before choosing the right speaker for me, I'd give it a try if I found one used.
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Old 11th March 2014
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edoardo View Post
I don't know. you are afraid of stuff that says "guitar"...?
I'm afraid of stuff that says "jazz", the same way.
I understand completely. (muffled jazz guitar tone)
Buy the Steel King, same amp, more power (200W)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edoardo View Post
The role of the speakers in guitar tone is always too underestimated.
Amen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edoardo View Post
The Palmer cab sim I've posted the demo of seems really versatile. Like, before choosing the right speaker for me, I'd give it a try if I found one used.
I have the Palmer Pocket Amp since two weeks, for "brown sound" purposes only. Really good!
Old 11th March 2014
  #63
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FFTT, go and see the Reussenzehn V8.

Ok, back to subject. Who ever used an Aphex 124a instead of a preamp?
Old 11th March 2014
  #64
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That's just wild!

Old 11th March 2014
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo S View Post
I understand completely. (muffled jazz guitar tone)
Buy the Steel King, same amp, more power (200W)
I don't want all that mellowness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo S View Post
Amen.



I have the Palmer Pocket Amp since two weeks, for "brown sound" purposes only. Really good!
Yes some of the Palmer stuff seem great. But just like you, I don't want to buy anything that does only one thing well. Most 12" speakers&cabs... Just do that. Brown? Fender-ish? Marshall-ish? Jazz? Tweedy-ish? That's why I'm thinking either about going custom or getting that cabsim. At my stage of experience I think "versatile" to be better than minimal or high-end.
Old 11th March 2014
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT View Post
That's just wild!

Whatever that is . . . I want it.
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Old 11th March 2014
  #67
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Or this:

"The first guitar in the world with Lo-impedance pickups + Overdrive
No hum, long cables can be used, 100 Ohm, plays in all amps/mixer/PA and PC .
The widest frequency range of all pickups ever produced !clean as a bell!"

By Lancaster Guitars (Warning: unannounced audio at website)
Old 11th March 2014
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo S View Post
Or this:

"The first guitar in the world with Lo-impedance pickups + Overdrive
No hum, long cables can be used, 100 Ohm, plays in all amps/mixer/PA and PC .
The widest frequency range of all pickups ever produced !clean as a bell!"

By Lancaster Guitars (Warning: unannounced audio at website)
Look like a "strat" version of the Les Paul Recording guitar....
Old 12th March 2014
  #69
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I should Know better than this but I'll give it a shot anyway. I once cut some tracks (original tunes) back in the early 90s using the fallowing signal chain Gibson SG Custom with original PUs removed and a Bill lawrance L500 pair installed bridge and neck and an on board discrete Transistor Pre amp with Base and Treble Cut/Boost, Gain and Volume controls (Jim Williams design who frequents this forum from a Guitarplayer article) into Boss Pro CL 50 Compressor into a Rocktron Intelifex (wide, almost detune, 8 voice chorus) into Barcus Berry Sonic Maximizer into a Mossvalve 500 SS power amp into a pair of Gauss 12s in Bag End Cabs. The guitar was tuned to diminished cord with the heavy E string tuned down to C and I can't remember the rest of the tuning (though I have it written down some where) . Was short of a Special Effects/Acoustic Alchemy come Phil Keaggy kind thing almost acoustic guitar sort of sounding thing with lots of tuned electronic percussion added on. Miced up stereo with AKG 300s into a Mackie VZ 16 board into a DA 88.
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Old 12th March 2014
  #70
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Oh man. Gotta have that V8!
Old 12th March 2014
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allphourus View Post
I should Know better than this but I'll give it a shot anyway. I once cut some tracks (original tunes) back in the early 90s using the fallowing signal chain Gibson SG Custom with original PUs removed and a Bill lawrance L500 pair installed bridge and neck and an on board discrete Transistor Pre amp with Base and Treble Cut/Boost, Gain and Volume controls (Jim Williams design who frequents this forum from a Guitarplayer article) into Boss Pro CL 50 Compressor into a Rocktron Intelifex (wide, almost detune, 8 voice chorus) into Barcus Berry Sonic Maximizer into a Mossvalve 500 SS power amp into a pair of Gauss 12s in Bag End Cabs. The guitar was tuned to diminished cord with the heavy E string tuned down to C and I can't remember the rest of the tuning (though I have it written down some where) . Was short of a Special Effects/Acoustic Alchemy come Phil Keaggy kind thing almost acoustic guitar sort of sounding thing with lots of tuned electronic percussion added on. Miced up stereo with AKG 300s into a Mackie VZ 16 board into a DA 88.
Yes, you should've known better, but . . .

WOW

What a story. I like it a lot. Nineties indeed! (Holdsworth using 8 Intellifexes at once!) It's clear, in your case people thought out of the box. Probably not for a signature sound, but dedicated for a specific production. A lot of manipulation to create a sound. I know also, this approach is more like a trial and error experiment, see what it does. Now you make me very curious for the music!
(I know those SG Customs are known for their extra vibrant bodies, because of third pick-up hole)
Old 12th March 2014
  #72
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Since we're here, what do you guys think about a sonic maximizer?
Old 12th March 2014
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edoardo View Post
Since we're here, what do you guys think about a sonic maximizer?
My first encounter with it was at a demonstration for an Alesis synth, back in the eighties. The maximizer was hidden for nasty reason.
The revelation was a shamefull moment for the shop owner.

Since then I lost my interest for it. (in a more emotional way)

Interesting question.
Old 12th March 2014
  #74
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FFTT's Avatar
 

I used a Scholz Sustainer and my Digitech Valve FX Tube Guitar Processor
back when I first started playing electric. All those sounds were fun to mess with and I actually tracked quite a bit of early solo stuff using them, but now after improving on the instrument, I'm going straight up through a very select group of specialty amps.

Granted, I have $12,000.00 + into just amps, cabs and speakers, but I can easily cover a very broad range of guitar tones with just a handful of specialty guitars.

I still have all kinds of options available if I need a more processed sound, but the foundational tones, the meat and potatoes will come from professional quality, fine amps through real speakers at ideal live band volumes.
Old 12th March 2014
  #75
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Don't overlook this important info from Tuck himself! The Secrets of the Universe

Interesting topic!

As a matter of interest, if you're going into a wideband transparent "flat" system is there a full range, single speaker system that could deliver sonically? i.e. the cab and the driver?

I'm imagining an ATC 12" driver in a large, acoustically treated, braced, resonance-free cab, made of (?)
Old 12th March 2014
  #76
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A single ported 15" EVM15L and an open back, 2X10 loaded with Fane AXA10 AlNiCos.

In a ported OS 2X12 EVM12L & Fane Medusa 150-C
Old 12th March 2014
  #77
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I imagine those drivers have pronounced resonant peaks in the upper mids though...

I mentioned ATC because they have the most natural midrange I've heard, at least as part of the entire monitor. (not that I've heard many other speaker systems, bu tI was floored when I heard those)
Old 12th March 2014
  #78
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For small gigs I use Schertler. For bigger I use them as monitors.
I am curious for everything that improves, like levelers etc.
I'm also interested in buffer amps, impendance levelers, etc.

And yes, a beautiful standalone full range speaker . . . .
Old 12th March 2014
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo S View Post
Yes, you should've known better, but . . .

WOW

What a story. I like it a lot. Nineties indeed! (Holdsworth using 8 Intellifexes at once!) It's clear, in your case people thought out of the box. Probably not for a signature sound, but dedicated for a specific production. A lot of manipulation to create a sound. I know also, this approach is more like a trial and error experiment, see what it does. Now you make me very curious for the music!
(I know those SG Customs are known for their extra vibrant bodies, because of third pick-up hole)
I have a copy somewhere in my storage unit on analog cassette but it has a problem in that Bill (Paschick- Rain Reocording/ Computers) who played the percussion on it (that we did together real time, no click track, as I tracked the guitar part) went back into the computer ( Chakewalk I think) and fixed the timing on the percussion which placed it out of sync with the guitar. so I'd rather not share it, though Bill might still have the Original Digital master.
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Old 13th March 2014
  #80
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It is not just which speakers you choose but the cab design.
Ported cab for more tonal depth, but you don't want it too dark,
so to cover a broader spectrum, I run the EVM12L to stay tight and full on lows, but the EV needs an overlapping companion speaker that smooths out the mids and does a better job on the highs with glass like clarity like the Fane Medusa 150-C.

So the EVM12L is the cake and the Medusa is the icing on top.

If you are running an open back cab, you probably want to run AlNiCos or something tight and detailed because the cab is already open enough.

Either of my 2X12s can easily hold their own and actually out perform
a typical Marshall 100 cab loaded with original style Greenbacks.

I wanted studio to stadium quality when I configured these cabs.

About $1,100.00 each and worth every penny.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Blast9 View Post
I imagine those drivers have pronounced resonant peaks in the upper mids though...

I mentioned ATC because they have the most natural midrange I've heard, at least as part of the entire monitor. (not that I've heard many other speaker systems, bu tI was floored when I heard those)
Old 13th March 2014
  #81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo S View Post
I like the approach of using broadband audio components for guitar amplifying (broadcast like, mastering like, etc.), as opposed to "wanting to sound like . . . "

I am curious for who does like this more "theoretical" (Tuck Andress) approach.
Hardly anybody. Most don't find it particularly musical.
Old 13th March 2014
  #82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edoardo View Post
+1, but I remind we use electric guitar amplifiers and specifically built cabs, because over a certain frequency distorting tubes create audible noise.
Utterly untrue. If it were broadcast radio and tv stations (which still use tubes for transmitters because semiconductors can't handle the power) simply wouldn't work.

It's not the tubes that create the noise (unless there's something wrong with them), it's the circuits they're used is, either by design or by use of subquality passive components such as the cheap carbon resistors (AKA noise generators) found in most guitar amps and nearly all prosumer class recording gear. The highest quality audio gear in the world is tube gear. Tubes have inherently much higher headroom (since the operate in the region of several hundred volts) which gives a much better signal to noise ratio than solid state gear that only operates on a few (usually very few) tens of volts or less.

Guitar amps distort because they're designed to. And it has nothing whatsoever to do with frequency - it has to do with power level. Even then the tubes don't create noise (unless they're defective) - however they certainly amplify the noise created by cheap carbon resistors in high impedance circuits, especially when the resistors are warm.

If you're interested you can look up the formula for figuring the thermal noise generated by a given resistance at a given temperature.

Incidentally, some of the noisiest amps I've ever heard are cheap high gain solid state amps.
Old 13th March 2014
  #83
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT View Post

I've played pedal steel slide on a keyboard using the mod wheel for bends.
Excuse my digression but no, you haven't. A real pedal steel is capable of bending only certain notes while holding others stationary and also bending some notes up while dropping others down. A student model pedal steel generally has three pedals that bend various string combinations up and one knee lever that bends certain strings down. More advanced instruments have additional pedals and levers. You can't do that with a mod wheel on a keyboard, which affects all notes equally.

You can't even adequately simulate a non-pedal lap steel because you can't simulate slant bar techniques.


Now back to our regularly scheduled programming...
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Old 13th March 2014
  #84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edoardo View Post
It's not because the masses want to sound like someone else and sheets. it's because above 6, 8 or 9 KHz heated tubes make noise.

Try it yourself.
So that's why some of the most expensive Hifi amps in the world use tubes? Because they make noise?

PTOOIHGBO!*

You need to stop getting your information from the publicity literature of prosumer audio gear of questionable quality and integrity (and the magazine and internet flacks and pundits who parrot their spiel.)

As an example, the cleanest, quietest and probably most expensive audio compressor in the world is an entirely tube unit. That's the SR-71 Blackbird from Tube Equipment Corporation (which currently retails at a mere $7,000), which was utterly breathtaking when I auditioned it - and so silent you wouldn't know it was on.

There are tube power amps used by some of the finest mastering labs that cost upwards of $10,000 each. They don't use them because they're noisy or distorted.









* - "Pull The Other One, It Has Got Bells On", an Anglophone reference to Morris Dancing widely used in the Terry Pratchett Diskworld novels.
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Old 13th March 2014
  #85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo S View Post
I am not curious for guitar amplifiers, nor for dealing with situations.
The clean guitar in the demo is picky strat narrowband sound in my ears.
Nice when people like it. I don't.

I am curious for people who have experience with using pro audio components (like fe Aphex Compellor, consumer to pro converters, hifi-di, etc.)

The discussion/culture mismatch is telling! When Tuck approached Aphex for equipment, he was told by them not to use their stuff for his plans.
Later on he became world famous with it.

When in 2004 I bought Schertlers for amplifying my stratocaster, I had almost to fight it in the shop. (I'm not famous, yet ;-) )
The vast majority of musicians dislike that sort of thing for guitar and, frankly, those who are into it tend to not be very popular, at least outside of a rather small niche.

Most guitar amp technology has evolved over the course of somewhat more than a half century by trial end error, not by proper electronic design practice, primarily on the basis of the tones that musicians and the public want.

Back in the 1960s when solid state came along a lot of guitar amp companies made the mistake of thinking that going for a clean, hi-fi sound was desirable - most of them failed miserably and quickly abandoned their efforts along those lines.

Think of it as the difference between an impressionist painter in oils and a photographer.


EDIT: After going and doing a bit of research on Tuck Andress I'd suggest that if you want to emulate his sound you start paying more attention to his technique and less attention to his gear. His gear isn't producing his tone. From what I've gathered he just has a great guitar with a really clean pickup (but not hyped and brittle like an EMG) that he plugs into a very minimalist recording chain of very high quality. His gear, other than the guitar, is not making his sound. HE is making his sound - the gear, like all high quality recording gear should, is simply staying out of the way. If you can't get his sound it's because you ain't him. It's not the gear. In fact he stuufs his classic antique Gibson jazz guitar with foam rubber to kill the body resonances so it won't feed back onstage. It ain't the gear. It's him. And, other than just getting the best and simplest stuff he can find, he doesn't appear much interested in gear fetishism.
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Old 13th March 2014
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Excuse my digression but no, you haven't.
Did he use a voltage to midi converter, maybe ?
Old 13th March 2014
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
The vast majority of musicians dislike that sort of thing for guitar and, frankly, those who are into it tend to not be very popular, at least outside of a rather small niche.
You are right, but my question was not about how to become popular. I would ask you then about dj equipment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Most guitar amp technology has evolved over the course of somewhat more than a half century by trial end error, not by proper electronic design practice, primarily on the basis of the tones that musicians and the public want.
For the music industry musicians ARE public.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
I'd suggest that if you want to emulate his sound you start paying more attention to his technique and less attention to his gear.
More? Well . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
His gear isn't producing his tone . . . . he doesn't appear much interested in gear fetishism.
I am not a gear fetishist too. In this case I had a question about gear.

Nevertheless I am very grateful for your information.
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Old 13th March 2014
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Hardly anybody. Most don't find it particularly musical.
"'Musical' is in the gear"? That's gear fetishism (generated by music industry, who's primarily target is not specific getting 'musical'.)
(Colaiuta playing on a garbage can --->musical)

"'Musical' is in the playing"? Yes
"'Hifi' means 'high fidelity'"? Yes

'Hifi' has no musician's market and I like that. They are very competitive to be the best. Which is good.
I think it is good to formulate your own wishes. It has nothing to do with re-invent the wheel.
People here are tend to call certain equipment 'classic'. In my opinion that is just a marketing term to give you some roots.

(Classic are the Romans, not a studio in the sixties)
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Old 13th March 2014
  #89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo S View Post
Did he use a voltage to midi converter, maybe ?
Why would he? I might have missed something in my research but as far as I've been able to find out he uses a totally pure recording chain. Why would he use any MIDI tomfoolery? If I've missed something, please give references.
Old 13th March 2014
  #90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo S View Post
You are right, but my question was not about how to become popular. I would ask you then about dj equipment.
Tuck Andrews is not a DJ and does not use DJ equipment. ( In fact crappy DJ quality equipment is pretty much the antithesis of the type of equipment he uses.) This is the wrong forum for queries about such tomfoolery

Quote:

For the music industry musicians ARE public.
WTF are you talking about?

Quote:

More? Well . . .
As I Said - I(f you want to emulate his sound, learn to play like him - which takes REAL WORK and years and years of practice. Don't worry about his gear - you're well before that stage.

Sorry, but it's truth.

Quote:


I am not a gear fetishist too. In this case I had a question about gear.
Oxymoron. You shouldn't be worrying about gear. On that level gear is irrelevant. Tuck would ound like Tuck on a plywood Harmony that was given away for selling Greeting cards.

Quote:
Nevertheless I am very grateful for your information.
You're welcome, but I seriously doubt it.
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