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Using a spring reverb tank on its own?
Old 3rd March 2014
  #1
Gear Nut
 

Using a spring reverb tank on its own?

I use a lot of dubby spring reverb in my music so I thought I should just buy a real reverb tank for a more authentic sound. But is it possible to use just a reverb tank from an amp on its own, without the amp? I'm asking cause there are a lot of them for sale on ebay, and I don't know much about this kind of technical stuff
Old 3rd March 2014
  #2
Lives for gear
 

Im not sure the tank alone will cut it..you need a circuit to drive the tank.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #3
Gear Head
 

Read this substitute funk for reggae. http://www.funkydown.com/downloads/****ty2.pdf it's a great article. You need a desk tho'. And check the accutronics site to make sure you order a line level tank.

Last edited by echodeck; 3rd March 2014 at 09:04 PM.. Reason: Added some stuff
Old 3rd March 2014
  #4
Lives for gear
 

Wow..Accutronics makes a line level tank?

It's plug and play, pretty much?
Old 3rd March 2014
  #5
Gear Head
 

About 1500 ohms is the biggest input impedance, it works pretty well. It's quite lofi sometimes because of the impedance mismatch. I've found its good to get a cheap limiter on there as well, especially if your playing it with a bottle neck or smacking it for the big dubby stuff, it's a lot of fun for not much money ;-) Billm -- Accutronics reverb tank codes the link is the reverb codes chart.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #6
Lives for gear
 

Are we speaking about a standalone spring reverb unit? I don't see any in the accutronics catalogue.
Old 3rd March 2014
  #7
Gear Head
 

Pretty much any tank will work you'll have to drive it hard, I could be mistaken on the line level input. Here's a tape op thread discussing it.Tape Op Message Board :: View topic - DIY Accutronics Spring Reverb Problem as well.
Old 4th March 2014
  #8
Lives for gear
 
e3p0's Avatar
 

Radial has a 500 series unit that drives a reverb tank too.
Radial Tank Driver™ -
Old 4th March 2014
  #9
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allphourus's Avatar
 

look around for a used spring reverb unit in the erea before digital reverbs became mainstream several companies made some high end ones which now bring in next to nothing used, Clark Technique, AKG , Orban, Furman, Studiomaster, Tepco, Ashley and others had them on the market , there is also the Premier unit which was low end in it's day but some people love them and of course the Fender three nob stand alone unit which of course demands top dollar .
Old 6th March 2014
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by allphourus View Post
look around for a used spring reverb unit in the erea before digital reverbs became mainstream several companies made some high end ones which now bring in next to nothing used, Clark Technique, AKG , Orban, Furman, Studiomaster, Tepco, Ashley and others had them on the market , there is also the Premier unit which was low end in it's day but some people love them and of course the Fender three nob stand alone unit which of course demands top dollar .
That's "Klark Teknik", not "Clark Technique". Most of their stuff is pretty good. And it's "Tapco", not "Tepco" although I'm not really fond of their stuff. The Orban is decent and the AKG B15 and B20s are stellar.

What is also really great is the original Fender standalone reverb, which is now available as a reissue. Not cheap though.
Old 6th March 2014
  #11
Fender 63' Reisse Reverb Tank

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post

What is also really great is the original Fender standalone reverb, which is now available as a reissue. Not cheap though.
I can vouch for the fender reissue. The unit can do some splashy reverb tones.
I loved mine, but had to sell it. Great for surf a la Dick Dale or dub music.

Attached Thumbnails
Using a spring reverb tank on its own?-63-fender-reverb-unit.jpg  
Old 6th March 2014
  #12
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Hot Vibrato's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by e3p0 View Post
Radial has a 500 series unit that drives a reverb tank too.
Radial Tank Driver™ -
Dang! Only available in 500 series?
Old 6th March 2014
  #13
Gear Head
 

You could use a desk or make a circuit. Here's another article about reverb tanks with some circuit diagrams and stuff http://sound.westhost.com/articles/reverb.htm I have a danelectro spring king, which is ok for the money and use a pan in the same way as the original article I linked. Johns right about the akg being the best, but it's a beast of a thing.

Last edited by echodeck; 6th March 2014 at 05:28 PM.. Reason: Couldn't post images
Old 6th March 2014
  #14
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noah330's Avatar
I had a Fender Reverb Unit but it's big to move around.

I really, really like the Carl Martin Headverb. It's like 2 Fender Reverb Units in 1 plus it runs on a standard Boss adapter.

Here is my demo on a guitar. I have used it on a send as well:

Carl Martin Headroom - Fender Strat and Mosrite Ventures into 1956 Fender Deluxe - YouTube
Old 6th March 2014
  #15
Gear Head
 

ive been told that a headphone amplifier is enough to drive a reverb tank.
Old 6th March 2014
  #16
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
What is also really great is the original Fender standalone reverb, which is now available as a reissue. Not cheap though.
What about the FR-1000?
Old 7th March 2014
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcolon View Post
What about the FR-1000?
Good question - I've never seen one in the flesh, let alone used one and I remember when that series of Fender solid state stuff was being sold. The entire line had such a bad reputation and was so unpopular that stores didn't stock much of it. The amps had a well deserved reputation for literally going up in smoke at the slightest provocation - like turning them up loud.

The other problem with the amps was that they simply didn't sound good - transistor technology was in its infancy and the amps managed to simultaneously sound tinny, gritty in a very unmusical way, and too clean all at the same time.

While I doubt the reverb has the tendency to blow up at the drop of a hat I'd suspect it might not sound very good and have annoying weird noise problems like everything else in that line did.
Old 7th March 2014
  #18
Quote:
Originally Posted by breiflabb View Post
ive been told that a headphone amplifier is enough to drive a reverb tank.
Should be if it's the right model of reverb tank. Fender uses the output of 1/2 of a TL072 chip to drive the reverb in the DeVille. That ain't much.

Remember you also have to amplify the output of the tank. Depending on the tank, a DI box into a mic pre might do it. Or the instrument input of a pre.

I have no idea what it might sound like.
Old 7th March 2014
  #19
Deleted User
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcolon View Post
is it possible to use just a reverb tank from an amp on its own, without the amp? I'm asking cause there are a lot of them for sale on ebay, and I don't know much about this kind of technical stuff
A reverb tank takes a small amount of power to drive it. For example, Fender typically uses two parallel sections of an 12AT7 in a Class A Single Ended circuit as the reverb tank driver in their tube amplifiers. To be clear, it requires a small power amplifier, rather than voltage amplifier to drive it, so you would have to reproduce that circuit. The driver stage also requires a voltage amplifier to drive the reverb tank driver, meaning you would need at least a single 12AX7 section to drive the 12AT7 tank driver. You would also need another 12AX7 section on the output to amplify the reverb tank output to something actually useable. Then you would need to design the circuit to correctly match input and output impedances to what you are connecting the reverb to.

Do you really want to do all that?

I'd just buy a stand alone reverb unit.

If you want to add spring reverb to a track during mixing, then a good unit to consider is the Demeter RV-1 Real Spring Reverb, which is a professional spring reverb designed for studio work.
Old 7th March 2014
  #20
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Case View Post
A reverb tank takes a small amount of power to drive it. For example, Fender typically uses two parallel sections of an 12AT7 in a Class A Single Ended circuit as the reverb tank driver in their tube amplifiers. To be clear, it requires a small power amplifier, rather than voltage amplifier to drive it, so you would have to reproduce that circuit. The driver stage also requires a voltage amplifier to drive the reverb tank driver, meaning you would need at least a single 12AX7 section to drive the 12AT7 tank driver. You would also need another 12AX7 section on the output to amplify the reverb tank output to something actually useable. Then you would need to design the circuit to correctly match input and output impedances to what you are connecting the reverb to.

Do you really want to do all that?

I'd just buy a stand alone reverb unit.

If you want to add spring reverb to a track during mixing, then a good unit to consider is the Demeter RV-1 Real Spring Reverb, which is a professional spring reverb designed for studio work.
You don't need to use tubes, a simple circuit like link I posted above is sufficient, as is the method described in the ****ty is pretty article. If it's for dub and reggae, you don't really need that much fidelity.
Old 7th March 2014
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by echodeck View Post
You don't need to use tubes
I never said you needed to use tubes. Your assertion is like me accusing you of saying that only solid state devices can be used, which would be incorrect. You can use whatever you want. I just gave an example using tubes, that's all. Never said you had to use tubes.
Old 7th March 2014
  #22
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Case View Post
I never said you needed to use tubes. Your assertion is like me accusing you of saying that only solid state devices can be used, which would be incorrect. You can use whatever you want. I just gave an example using tubes, that's all. Never said you had to use tubes.
You're absolutely right, your suggestion is just a complicated and expensive solution. I mean no disrespect. But the components alone are expensive never mind, buying a new/secondhand unit. If I had the cash to spare I would love a fender reverb. But a solid state circuit or using a console to drive and recover the tank. Would probably be the cheapest and easiest solution. Especially for dub type music, as tube echoes don't crop up that often in Dub and reggae.
Old 7th March 2014
  #23
Deleted User
Guest
Yes, if cost is a consideration, definitely go SS. It won't sound like an old classic tube reverb circuit, but it will do the job. And the Demeter RV-1 is an SS unit, which works fine. Demeter uses two tanks, one with a 1.5 second delay time and another with a 3.5 second delay time, to get thicker reverb. That would be a cool DIY way of doing it as well.

I read the Rod Elliott article you linked to and it looks like he has a lot of it covered. Good stuff.
Old 7th March 2014
  #24
Gear Addict
 
musimedia's Avatar
Preservation sound has a great little video on how to create your own stereo spring reverb...

Basically a smal 1-3 watt amplifier on the way in and a little boost preamp on the way out. They also use a line balancing device to and from the whole thing...


Videos | Preservation Sound
Old 7th March 2014
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah330 View Post
I had a Fender Reverb Unit but it's big to move around.

I really, really like the Carl Martin Headverb.
You mean "Headroom", right?

Quote:
It's like 2 Fender Reverb Units in 1 plus it runs on a standard Boss adapter.
Erm, not exactly.

It's far too small to have real Hammond/Accutronics type spring tanks in it. My guess is that it has some of the new Chinese miniature spring tanks, most likely similar to the one used in the current Danelectro unit and used in some of Fender's cheap student amps.

You can get a decent enough sound out of some of those but there are issues and they're never going to sound like a real long spring tank.

The RT60* of a spring reverb is determined by the length and tension of the spring. The shorter the length of the spring(s) the lower the tension for a given RT60. This also will affect other factors such as frequency response and susceptibility to environmental noise. This can only be compensated for by electronic means to a limited degree. If nothing else it makes the tank much more susceptible to acoustic feedback and mechanical vibration.

Quote:

Here is my demo on a guitar. I have used it on a send as well:

Carl Martin Headroom - Fender Strat and Mosrite Ventures into 1956 Fender Deluxe - YouTube
I've only had experience with a couple of Carl Martin devices and it's been pretty positive - they do well designed gear of a decent build quality. However there is no way in hell they can come even remotely close to a Fender tube reverb box in that physical package at that price point. OTOH it's quite reasonably priced - you'd be hard pressed to get two of the Dano units for what that costs.





* - reverberation time
Old 7th March 2014
  #26
Deleted User
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah330 View Post
Here is my demo on a guitar. I have used it on a send as well:

Carl Martin Headroom - Fender Strat and Mosrite Ventures into 1956 Fender Deluxe - YouTube
Very pretty sound. Nice. Puts a smile on my face.
Old 7th March 2014
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Case View Post
A reverb tank takes a small amount of power to drive it. For example, Fender typically uses two parallel sections of an 12AT7 in a Class A Single Ended circuit as the reverb tank driver in their tube amplifiers. To be clear, it requires a small power amplifier, rather than voltage amplifier to drive it, so you would have to reproduce that circuit. The driver stage also requires a voltage amplifier to drive the reverb tank driver, meaning you would need at least a single 12AX7 section to drive the 12AT7 tank driver. You would also need another 12AX7 section on the output to amplify the reverb tank output to something actually useable. Then you would need to design the circuit to correctly match input and output impedances to what you are connecting the reverb to.

Do you really want to do all that?

I'd just buy a stand alone reverb unit.

If you want to add spring reverb to a track during mixing, then a good unit to consider is the Demeter RV-1 Real Spring Reverb, which is a professional spring reverb designed for studio work.
I'd agree with pretty much all of that, except one thing - there are tanks available now that take a surprisingly small amount of power to drive them. For example, as I noted previously, Fender is using 1/2 of a TL072 chip to drive the (long spring Accutronics) tank in the DeVille and the other half for the output amp. That's the same chip that ART uses half of for the instrument input in the Tube MP and a chip that doesn't really put out a large amount of power - not even close to half of the 12AT7 tube Fender used in their vintage (and RI) amps. I was quite surprised when I saw that in the schematic. It is, of course, not the same long spring tank in the two applications.

I'm also not impressed with the general quality of the DeVille design.
Old 7th March 2014
  #28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Case View Post
I never said you needed to use tubes. Your assertion is like me accusing you of saying that only solid state devices can be used, which would be incorrect. You can use whatever you want. I just gave an example using tubes, that's all. Never said you had to use tubes.
What's important is to match the impedance and sensitivity of the tank to the circuitry you're using.

There are a whole lot of different tanks that all look similar but use different transducers. They also are available with different reverb lengths.
Old 7th March 2014
  #29
One thing I'd like to point out here is that real professional mixing consoles generally put out a lot hotter line level signal than most prosumer gear. I've run into a lot of gear where nominally line level signals could push a set of phones.

I also had one console with a phones output that could push a monitor wedge to a fairly respectable volume.
Old 7th March 2014
  #30
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_Case View Post
A reverb tank takes a small amount of power to drive it. For example, Fender typically uses two parallel sections of an 12AT7 in a Class A Single Ended circuit as the reverb tank driver in their tube amplifiers. To be clear, it requires a small power amplifier, rather than voltage amplifier to drive it, so you would have to reproduce that circuit. The driver stage also requires a voltage amplifier to drive the reverb tank driver, meaning you would need at least a single 12AX7 section to drive the 12AT7 tank driver. You would also need another 12AX7 section on the output to amplify the reverb tank output to something actually useable. Then you would need to design the circuit to correctly match input and output impedances to what you are connecting the reverb to.
So what you're saying is I'd need a drive to drive the driver? Yeah forget it, I'll just buy one
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