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Which bass guitar has most value for recording?
Old 29th October 2013
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT View Post
Maybe watch how the big boys play.

Boz sadly passed away, this is not the real bass player. I know in the old days Boz played exotic basses most of the time when he was in Bad Co. He also played some cool boutique stuff when he was in King Crimson.

I didn't know Bad co had 2 guitar players? That looks like the guy from Heart. That PRS is a 1 off
Old 29th October 2013
  #122
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archfrenemy's Avatar
 

The choice of instrument limits creativity? Fender P-bass is vanilla and boring? These are statements of an instrument player and not a musician. There is nothing more boring than listening to an "instrument player". A musicians creativity is certainly not limited by his instrument. In fact, often a true musicians creativity is enhanced when they restrict themselves via instrument and gear limitations.

I can't think of any bass player who pushes the boundary of their instrument more than Victor Wooten. His go to is a Fender P/J, and it doesn't seem to be holding him back too much... He would also deliver just as creative results (or more) with some crazy hollowbody home made one string fretless bass thingy.
Old 29th October 2013
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therock View Post
but those are essentially the same as mexican ones, it's all the cheap asian parts.
Amazing that someone who doesn't have a clue as to what he's talking about can be so confident in his pronouncements!


Quote:
Originally Posted by therock View Post
ummm yeah except I'm not going to pay 1200 for a bass with a bolt on neck and polyester finish
Well, good for you!

Fender has been using Poly since 1963. In 1968, P-basses in the US listed for $239.50 (that's $1,609.58 today, calculating for inflation); with a case they were $304 (= $2,043 in today's dollars).

Today you can get the same instrument for $1199 with gig bag (or for even less, if you haggle).
Old 29th October 2013
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archfrenemy View Post
The choice of instrument limits creativity?
hmmmm.... well I shouldn't say that boldy however I like guys who take chances. I can tell y'all are vanhalen haters but take a player like Eddie. He and guys like Brian may took the whole aspect of guitar playing by the ballz. They not only were among the most innovative players they reinvented the guitar itself not just guitar playing. And While Entwistle didn't assemble his own guitars like Eddie or hand build them like Brian may, The ox took chances.

He was playing alembic basses and boutique instruments when they were not in vogue. At that time everyone played it safe playing pbasses. A few rouges playing Rics but they were all prog guys so it was accpeted to be different. Ox DOMINATED in the 70s. the Who were a borderline pop band and yet he played bass like a monster. Unheard of at the time in popular music. Point being what bass players back then really dominated on pbasses?? compared to guys that played Rics or alembics and some others?? The fact of the matter is very very very few. They were all background musicians. Which is fine, but rather boring in retrospect. And sort of a safe take no chances approach. Carol kaye did it all before Entwistle then Chris Squire, Geddy , Stanley Clarke etc.... But that's the thing no one ever topped her signature sound. It was all derivative of her. And I actually think the stock pbass held many people back because it is a one trick pony, sadly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by archfrenemy View Post
The
Fender P-bass is vanilla and boring?
Out of the box yeah, IMO they are really flat sounding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by archfrenemy View Post
These are statements of an instrument player and not a musician. There is nothing more boring than listening to an "instrument player".
agreed, that's why I dislike pbasses

Quote:
Originally Posted by archfrenemy View Post
A musicians creativity is certainly not limited by his instrument. In fact, often a true musicians creativity is enhanced when they restrict themselves via instrument and gear limitations.
but who on pbass has a unique sound? there are a few but very few.

Quote:
Originally Posted by archfrenemy View Post
I can't think of any bass player who pushes the boundary of their instrument more than Victor Wooten.
this guy??





Quote:
Originally Posted by archfrenemy View Post
His go to is a Fender P/J, and it doesn't seem to be holding him back too much... He would also deliver just as creative results (or more) with some crazy hollowbody home made one string fretless bass thingy.
Wooten is a great player no doubt. I love all the shredder guys like Victor and Billy Sheehan and John Patitucci, John Myung and etc.... But they all play highly modded or boutique basses. the only guy I think was great that played stock pbases is the guy in Iron Maiden. For whatever reason it worked and sounded great in that band. But a rare exception and he is probably in the top 5 bass players to ever live. Certainly in the top 5 of most successful bass players if that means anything. Harris built the band around his sound, and that's why it works I think. It is very featured. It's louder than the guitars which is not acceptable in pop music, hence why I like emgs. the extend more naturally without having to really over extend in the dynamics of a mix. Of course this is a generalization and only MO.
Old 29th October 2013
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indravayu View Post
gig bag
I love those, they are so much easier on the back muscles
Old 29th October 2013
  #126
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archfrenemy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by therock View Post
hmmmm.... well I shouldn't say that boldy however I like guys who take chances. I can tell y'all are vanhalen haters but take a player like Eddie. He and guys like Brian may took the whole aspect of guitar playing by the ballz. They not only were among the most innovative players they reinvented the guitar itself not just guitar playing. And While Entwistle didn't assemble his own guitars like Eddie or hand build them like Brian may, The ox took chances.

He was playing alembic basses and boutique instruments when they were not in vogue. At that time everyone played it safe playing pbasses. A few rouges playing Rics but they were all prog guys so it was accpeted to be different. Point being what bass players back then really dominated on pbasses?? compared to guys that played Rics or alembics and some others?? The fact of the matter is very very very few. they were all background musicians. Which is fine, but rather boring in retrospect.


Out of the box yeah, IMO they are really flat sounding.


agreed, that's why I dislike pbasses


but who on pbass has a unique sound? there are a few but very few.


this guy??






Wooten is a great player no doubt. I love all the shredder guys like Victor and Billy Sheehan and John Patitucci, John Myung and etc.... But they all play highly modded or boutique basses. the only guy I think was great that played stock pbases is the guy in Iron Maiden. For whatever reason it worked and sounded great in that band. But a rare exception and he is probably in the top 5 bass players to ever live. Certainly in the top 5 of most successful bass players if that means anything. Harris built the band around his sound, and that's why it works I think. It is very featured. It's louder than the guitars which is not acceptable in pop music, hence why I like emgs. the extend more naturally without having to really over extend in the dynamics of a mix. Of course this is a generalization and only MO.
The bass guitar plays an important role in a song, and that role is usually not to stand out and sound as unique as possible. Your perspective is too skewed toward the bass instrument to see the big picture of how a subdued bass tone can enhance other musical moments by taking a back seat. What you refer too as "background" bassists are often the ones who best serve the emotion and feeling of the music.

I have seen Victor Wooten play a ton of different basses. (Most of them are completely stock by the way) He is also equally impressive playing on a $50 POS that he borrows from a kid at one of his bass camps. He always starts off by saying that the choice of instrument / gear is the least important factor...

What would Radiohead's House of Cards (or other newer tracks) sound like if their goal was to have a unique and out front bass sound. You need to focus a bit more on serving music, as it is infinitely more important than a "unique" bass sound. Same goes for every other instrument by the way. Bass is just a "role playing" instrument in particular in most styles of songwriting. You want to focus on bass tone first? Then start the next Primus! Most of us writing very un-Primus sounding stuff these days, hence your advice is getting some bounce back....
Old 29th October 2013
  #127
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Grant Ransom's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by archfrenemy View Post
He is also equally impressive playing on a $50 POS that he borrows from a kid at one of his bass camps. He always starts off by saying that the choice of instrument / gear is the least important factor...

What would Radiohead's House of Cards sound like...
Bingo.
They're tools: The more developed your expressive skill, the more transparent they become.
(And the more you realise it the less distracted you become...)

I was almost going to mention Col Greenwood.
Old 29th October 2013
  #128
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FFTT's Avatar
 

Once you start working with and arranging bass parts around vocals, you learn real quick
how a busy bass part competes with the vocal.
Old 29th October 2013
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archfrenemy View Post
The bass guitar plays an important role in a song, and that role is usually not to stand out and sound as unique as possible. Your perspective is too skewed toward the bass instrument to see the big picture of how a subdued bass tone can enhance other musical moments by taking a back seat. What you refer too as "background" bassists are often the ones who best serve the emotion and feeling of the music.
I think you misunderstood me since I 90% agree with you here on your points. What I guess I'm saying is a pbass does one thing and I don't really think if someone is buying one bass for a recording studio, there are better options, more versatile options. While I stand by my 'background' assertion I agree with you that sure some music calls surely for it, maybe arguably the majority of music calls for it, I don't know??, But I do know or rather think that some other basses are just more capable in a studio environment. From a flavor/variety standpoint. And are much easier o get a good sound quick without comps and eqs and active boxes/tone shapers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by archfrenemy View Post
I have seen Victor Wooten play a ton of different basses. (Most of them are completely stock by the way) He is also equally impressive playing on a $50 POS that he borrows from a kid at one of his bass camps. He always starts off by saying that the choice of instrument / gear is the least important factor...
Sure Wooten is a dominate player, one of the best in his class. But the point I'm making or tried to is, I don't think the OP is going to have too many guys the caliber of Wooten coming through his studio. So he perhaps needs a 'variety' bass for guys who can't get their own sound on anything. I could be wrong???


Quote:
Originally Posted by archfrenemy View Post
What would Radiohead's House of Cards (or other newer tracks) sound like if their goal was to have a unique and out front bass sound. You need to focus a bit more on serving music, as it is infinitely more important than a "unique" bass sound. Same goes for every other instrument by the way. Bass is just a "role playing" instrument in particular in most styles of songwriting. You want to focus on bass tone first? Then start the next Primus! Most of us writing very un-Primus sounding stuff these days, hence your advice is getting some bounce back....
Again I agree and I think you are misunderstanding me since I perhaps went on an offtopic tangent, but I am stating that if you are going to buy a bass for your studio there are much more versatile options than a Pbass or G&L for that matter.

I may be wrong, but this is what my past interactions with various players and bands tell me. I think it's much easier get a variety of sounds out of several basses other than pbass.
Old 29th October 2013
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT View Post
Once you start working with and arranging bass parts around vocals, you learn real quick
how a busy bass part competes with the vocal.
That's the point in your AE career when you have to learn the artform of use of ambience and dynamics shaping.
Old 29th October 2013
  #131
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Grant Ransom's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by therock View Post
That's the point in your AE career when you have to learn the artform of use of ambience and dynamics shaping.
?
None of that will change the notes or where they are, will they.
Old 29th October 2013
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant Ransom View Post
?
None of that will change the notes or where they are, will they.
Sure ambience will 'spatially' push the bass 'back' in the mix while still virtually preserving amplitude and presence (if technically executed properly). Additional use of dynamics techniques such as ducking and sidechaining shaping methodologies can do wonders to ensure instruments do not fight vocals all the while preserving instrumental nuances and presence.

Check out a 91025 and Big Generator by Yes, Essentially both pop records but the bass is all prog metal. Dominant and present and BIG. Yet these records are still arguably two of the best vocals albums ever recorded, in any era in any genre. Listen to "It can happen" and "Finalize'. Don't observe as a music fan but rather listen as engineer so you are sonically impartial. Since some of the what's going on musically is a little dated and considered trendy perhaps.
Old 29th October 2013
  #133
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Grant Ransom's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by therock View Post
Don't observe as a music fan but rather listen as engineer so you are sonically impartial.
LOL, OK. I'll try and be an engineer...

But how about you read and critically process what I said?
Old 30th October 2013
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant Ransom View Post
LOL, OK. I'll try and be an engineer...

But how about you read and critically process what I said?
Are you implying that "all that matters is THE SONG!!!!!!"?
Old 30th October 2013
  #135
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Grant Ransom's Avatar
 

I'm very *very* familiar with the work of Horn, Rabin, Anderson, Squires Et Al... And can even bear to listen to Squires knackered "old" Rick bass, clanking along through a Marshall guitar amp with his strings so low they rattle on the frets.

Processing doesn't fix "stupid".
Contrary to propagating myths - sidechains just can't lock-on, though whoever manages to find the filter settings will become very wealthy indeed.

And you won't find much of that on most Horn productions. The POP producer who is anal retentive about the song's presentation over any other concern and is famous for it.
The guy who reinvented Yes, and invented Frankie, Seal, Propaganda... Who played the bass on "Relax".

What you will find are arrangements that many of us currently recognise as being aesthetically pleasing. Artful. Skilled. Complimentary.
Ie. Not deeply "****" because, ironicslly, the musicians are there because they need to prove and demonstrate they know more "stuff" than all the "****" people.
Old 30th October 2013
  #136
Gear Guru
 
FFTT's Avatar
 

If you've ever worked in a busy full time band as a bass player, you learn to adapt and blend with all the other things going on up on the stage. Your bass track is fundamental,
but also part of 24 or 32 other tracks getting pumped through that PA.

If you work with a vocalist, Vocals are primary to everything.

When you work with 5 players and 5 lead vocals, you adapt to benefit the material,
not your own precious self righteous ego.

Ask any working band out there. The bass player drives the band as a foundational
player, but there are many other things going on up on that stage where other parts
are critical to the performance where an overly busy bass part becomes a liability rather than an asset.

A bass player who knows their place and can sing or play other instruments are in high demand for a reason.
Old 30th October 2013
  #137
Gear Head
 

Oh well, the deal is off, I didn't get any of it. 8(

After salivating over the more expensive basses, feel like that muppet, whatshisface 8(
Old 30th October 2013
  #138
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Birdland101's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by therock View Post
Iron Maiden. For whatever reason it worked and sounded great in that band. But a rare exception and he is probably in the top 5 bass players to ever live. Certainly in the top 5 of most successful bass players if that means anything. Harris built the band around his sound, and .
Dont think he is even close to top 50
Old 30th October 2013
  #139
Gear Head
 

And despite what you might have thought, I found the discussion, even the heated part, interesting and refreshing

Even little of the same old J-bass vs P-bass, nect-through vs bolt-on and active vs passive -argumentation

Personally I prefer passive bolt ons
- while feeling that neck-through with great tronics (such as passive-active switch and integrated headphone amp) are "better", these provide many more mainteinance headaches
- passive bolt ons have less risks from value standpoint.

And yes, Fender is a brand that holds its value real well in the bass department, at least in the local markets its a given

Over here we dont have co-op plans with the likes of Mr Jamerson so a more basic basses will have to do for now Lol

This may hurt your ears a litte:
What's Going On - Isolated Bass Track (James Jamerson)
Old 30th October 2013
  #140
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FFTT's Avatar
 

If its worth getting, it's generally worth working for.

Set a goal and figure out how to achieve it.

If money is hard to come by, all the more reason to invest as smart as you can.

I've worked a full year to scrape together enough for some of my better pieces,
but that gave me the time to really think it through.

It sucks that living in Finland means you pay a premium for everything, buy if it comes
at a premium anyway, make it count.

Otherwise you end up with an endless, inescapable chain of mediocrity,
where you've paid a premium, but get no long term value retention.

A passive vintage Fender with variations of flat and round wound strings, is a highly
versatile instrument that also records exceptionally well D/I or through your favorite
bass rig.

You didn't miss anything really outstanding on that sale.

Try to hunt down a shop with a large selection of better gear and make a day trip of it.

Most merchants will let you buy on lay away so you don't have to pass on the right guitar.
Old 30th October 2013
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cascasetto View Post
so hollow sounding, the playing is not that bad though.
although Id like to hear the whole song maybe it is more contextual thing??

But on its own it really doesn't "speak" it's just a bunch of arbitrary notes
and I hate that cliche root 5th thing these old timers play every other phrase because they can't think of anything original
Old 30th October 2013
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therock View Post
so hollow sounding, the playing is not that bad though.
although Id like to hear the whole song maybe it is more contextual thing??
Yeah, I mean, it's only one of the greatest songs of the 20th century.

Quote:
Originally Posted by therock View Post
But on its own it really doesn't "speak" it's just a bunch of arbitrary notes and I hate that cliche root 5th thing these old timers play every other phrase because they can't think of anything original
<DELETED BY MODERATOR>
Old 30th October 2013
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant Ransom View Post
The guy who reinvented Yes, and invented Frankie, Seal, Propaganda... Who played the bass on "Relax".
For sure Trevor is great bass player, singer and producer. I love his work with Yes, specifically the Drama album. I saw that tour front row center in 1980!!! Awesome show. He couldn't sing that great live but on record he was great. I'm a HUGE Buggles fan too. I think I Am a Camera aka "into the lens" is one of the best songs ever written. Bass sound is amazing on that.

However you are mistaken on Trevor H. reinvented Yes, that was in fact Trevor Rabin. If you knew your Yes history all the core songs on 90125 were written and produced well before Horn was even included in the project. It was only when John Anderson joined the 'Cinema' project that Horn was brought on board to refine some things and was originally only retained as a vocal producer to maintain cordial tracking relations between Rabin and Anderson, all sanctioned by Atco. He did an amazing job however, agreed.

Trevor Rabin has proved him self a more successful (arguably better) composer /arranger/ producer than what Trevor Horn ever attained. Rabin has produced several plat albums and has done over 100 major motion picture soundtracks. In fact Rabin is considered by many film producers as a modern John Williams. Not a bad compliment.
Old 30th October 2013
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indravayu View Post
Yeah, I mean, it's only one of the greatest songs of the 20th century.
yeah right


Quote:
Originally Posted by indravayu View Post

STFU.
ummm ok
Old 30th October 2013
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT View Post
Try to hunt down a shop with a large selection of better gear and make a day trip of it.
This is probably the best advice anyone has given here
Old 30th October 2013
  #146
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archfrenemy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by therock View Post
so hollow sounding, the playing is not that bad though.
although Id like to hear the whole song maybe it is more contextual thing??

But on its own it really doesn't "speak" it's just a bunch of arbitrary notes
and I hate that cliche root 5th thing these old timers play every other phrase because they can't think of anything original
My guess is that you are somewhere in your teens to mid twenties... You can't look back in time and critique great music by applying your modern definitions of "cliche".

One day you will realize that a straight root - fifth bass line can be what best serves a song. If not, you are unlikely to write anything of real worth.

I like Yes and all... But they wrote pop jingles compared to a guy like Bob Dylan. There is another level of musician that you seem to be missing.
Old 30th October 2013
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therock View Post


yeah right

ummm ok
Some of the accolades for "What's Going On":
#4, 500 Greatest Songs of All Time, Rolling Stone, 2010
#14, 100 Greatest Rock Songs, VH1, 2000
#39, 100 Songs That Changed the World, Q, 2003
#64, 1001 Best Songs Ever, Q, 2003
#65, 365 Songs of the Century, RIAA, 2001
(Listed) 500 Songs That Shaped Rock, Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, 1995
Old 30th October 2013
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archfrenemy View Post
My guess is that you are somewhere in your teens to mid twenties...
guess again
Old 30th October 2013
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indravayu View Post
Some of the accolades for "What's Going On":
#4, 500 Greatest Songs of All Time, Rolling Stone, 2010
#14, 100 Greatest Rock Songs, VH1, 2000
#39, 100 Songs That Changed the World, Q, 2003
#64, 1001 Best Songs Ever, Q, 2003
#65, 365 Songs of the Century, RIAA, 2001
(Listed) 500 Songs That Shaped Rock, Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, 1995


some nice accolades for sure
Old 30th October 2013
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therock View Post


some nice accolades for sure
So you admit that are just a troll?
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