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Recording Dual Rectifier direct
Old 10th September 2011
  #1
Recording Dual Rectifier direct

So I've been recording my dual rectifier from the fx send (with a cab attached to the speaker outs, master volume at "0") and have been using redwirez IR's ITB.

Not super thrilled with the sound and usually take a split before going to the amp and running it through a DI and sending that signal to some amp sim and blending...

I'm now wondering if using something like a hot plate and taking the line out from there will give me more useable sounds with the cab IRs.

Basically, does involving the power section of the Mesa change the sound?
Old 11th September 2011
  #2
Here for the gear
 

I would try using the slave out first. I got some pretty decent results with my Bugera 333 by routing :

Bugera 333 Direct out -> AudioBox USB

So I guess the slave out should serve the same purpose...

And then, in your DAW, run the dry signal out in a cab emulation plugin ( I use poulin LeCab) set with the proper impulse.
Old 11th September 2011
  #3
Hmm, I never tried the slave out...

it says in the manual the slave out is derived from the speaker outs, so I'm assuming that it includes the power tubes in the chain. If that's the case, it'll be too loud with the speaker connected and I'll need a power attenuator or dummy load.

I'll have a look tomorrow.
Old 12th September 2011
  #4
Lives for gear
Yes, the power tubes (and output transformer) do make a difference. And yes, you have to record a dual rec with the volume up for it to sound decent. And yes, a power attenuator/dummy load may be your best solution although the slave out would work: you could try making a dummy load with 10w resistors from Radio Shack-16 of them in series/parallel should be enough to hold out against a Dual Rec.
Old 12th September 2011
  #5
Lives for gear
If you do a lot of recording, the Palmer PGI-03 is what a lot of the pros use and a lot of acts on stage - most of the speaker stacks are just for show. You need something beefy like the Palmer which can take the dummy load and give you recording outs. Expensive but worth it.
Old 12th September 2011
  #6
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I'd like to ask by the way guys, is it really necessary to keep the cab plugged in ? Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't the amp still safely operate without the load of a cab ? I know it can be done, I just don't know if it is safe...

If not, you could simply unplug the cab, imagineaudio.
Old 12th September 2011
  #7
Lives for gear
If you have a load box like the Palmer, it substitutes the load the cabs present to the speaker out, so yes, you don't have to plug the cab in.
Old 12th September 2011
  #8
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You can't just uplug the cab in most amps.

Old Fenders have a shorting jack, meaning the speaker output just goes thru a wire, no resistance. It protects the amp from damage but uses up tubes fast and isn't recommended.

Most modern amps have no protection at all, unplug the speaker and you're running the output of the amp into an infinite load. This means that there's a flyback voltage thru the output transformer that can seriously damage it, the tubes, the tube sockets and wires, caps or resistors... In other words, catastrophic damage.

A "dummy load" like an attenuator with a dummy setting or the Palmer direct recording boxes, puts an 8 or 16 ohm load across the speaker outs, protecting them.
Old 12th September 2011
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by nedorama View Post
If you do a lot of recording, the Palmer PGI-03 is what a lot of the pros use and a lot of acts on stage - most of the speaker stacks are just for show. You need something beefy like the Palmer which can take the dummy load and give you recording outs. Expensive but worth it.
I've heard good things about the PGI-03 but it's a bit rich for my blood right now.

If I intend on using cab IRs like redwirez, is the palmer, with it's cabinet emulation, really worth it?

I can pick up a hot plate for around $200 used.

EDIT: I stuffed the speaker cabinet in a closet and stuffed the closet with a futon mattress, some fiberglass panels, a 4" thick slab of rubber flooring, and 4 moving blankets. Basically made quiet enough to jam in the apartment.

Ran the slave out from the mesa and there is indeed a huge difference in sound when using the IRs vs the fx send. Wish I tried this a year ago.
Old 18th September 2011
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagineaudio View Post
I've heard good things about the PGI-03 but it's a bit rich for my blood right now.

If I intend on using cab IRs like redwirez, is the palmer, with it's cabinet emulation, really worth it?

I can pick up a hot plate for around $200 used.
Most likely the Palmer will sound better but on a budget get the hot plate which you can use for the load, the bright and deep switches are nice features. And also get a cab emulator/simulator. I use an H&K red box but there are other options, hardware and software.
Old 18th September 2011
  #11
Lives for gear
Just a word on the red box - if you don't have an attenuator, it only gives you a line out from the speakers - you must have the speakers attached or you'll melt your dual rectifier.

Yes, the Palmer is expensive and is built like a tank for recording and touring. If it's too rich, look into attenuators, although all of them will change your tone somewhat. It's a tradeoff, but probably better than getting evicted.
Old 23rd September 2011
  #12
I'm really digging the slave out, so maybe I just need a good DIY dummy load.
Old 23rd September 2011
  #13
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Animus's Avatar
 

I record my Mesa Road King with the head's line out (Hot Plate on speaker load) then go into Redwire impulses. I am getting awesome results. Since I don't go out the Hot Plates line out the tone is not sucked at all. And I still get the power amp in the path. Does the Dual Rec have a built in line out?
Old 23rd September 2011
  #14
It has a "slave out" which, according to the manual, is derived from the speaker outs so using a hot plate shouldn't change the tone. If I'm going to be using the slave out, I just don't see a point in an attenuator. I think I just need a load. Doesn't need line outs, attenuation, or speaker connectors.
Old 23rd September 2011
  #15
Lives for gear
An attenuator is a variable resistive load.

Good article explaining this more here:
THE FAKE BOOK
Old 24th September 2011
  #16
Gear Guru
 
Animus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by imagineaudio View Post
It has a "slave out" which, according to the manual, is derived from the speaker outs so using a hot plate shouldn't change the tone. If I'm going to be using the slave out, I just don't see a point in an attenuator. I think I just need a load. Doesn't need line outs, attenuation, or speaker connectors.
I meant use the builtin lineouts rather than going out the attenuators line out since it can get ****ty sounding.
Old 24th September 2011
  #17
Yes, the slave out is a basically a line out with adjustable gain. This works great with the redwirez IRs. Right now I have a cab connected for the load and stuffed in a closet. There's still some residual sound, obviously. Seems I should be able to build an 8ohm dummy load for a fraction of the price of a hot plate or other attenuator, of which I need none of the features.
Old 24th September 2011
  #18
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el cochino's Avatar
 

Better than using a power attenuator is connecting a cab to one speaker out and a Radial JDI to the other output. The amp responds way different to a real speaker than it does to power attenuators and you'll get more presence and dynamic, that way. If noise is a problem, use an iso cab. Doesn't even have to sound good, because you'll not be micing it's speaker, anyway.
Old 26th September 2011
  #19
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what makes guitars sound good:

1) preamp section
2) power amp section (tubes)
3) speaker pushing air.
4) a mic that sounds good on the speaker.
5) decent mic pre (too)

If you remove any of those from the formula... you will grow less and less happy.

The more i record my guitar parts direct... the more I consider going back to modeling devices for direct tones.
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