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Behringer are at it again.
Old 24th March 2010
  #1
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octatonic's Avatar
Behringer are at it again.

Complete Mesa Recto rip off.

BUGERA: TRIREC

Seriously, is it possible for a company to be more blatant?
Old 24th March 2010
  #2
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Gibripper75's Avatar
 

Behringer, the way I look at is is the "Black Sheep" of German engineering. Generally the Germans are the trend setters, the innovators...come on reel to reels..but Behringer is like a KIA or Hyndai, they take cool features from other cars and morph it onto one of their own. Look at the Hyndai Genesis>>>>Mercedes anyone?
Old 24th March 2010
  #3
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M.S.P.'s Avatar
BUGERA: MAGICIAN

Ive read that is supposed to be a Mark IV clone.
Old 25th March 2010
  #4
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kafka's Avatar
Mesa isn't the only one. Look familiar?



Old 25th March 2010
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by octatonic View Post
Complete Mesa Recto rip off.

BUGERA: TRIREC

Seriously, is it possible for a company to be more blatant?
how do they sound?
Old 25th March 2010
  #6
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amishsixstringe's Avatar
 

I'm sure they sound just like the ones they rip off too....

It's just like when a ****ty plug in manufacturer makes a GUI that looks exactly like some famous piece of outboard.

Guitar manufacturers have been doing it for years though. Almost every guitar made is a les paul, strat, or tele knockoff.

Neil
Old 26th March 2010
  #7
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They sound like a ****ty copy of that amp until they fall apart from using cheap parts.

Until people stop buying their crap, Behringer (who owns Bugera) will continue to rip off other designs, build them with ****ty parts and poor quality control, and sell them to clueless kids who think they got a Matchless for 1/10 the price.
Old 27th March 2010
  #8
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Wow, is all I can say right now. The bugera amps are a ridiculous deal at the moment and time will only tell how well they hold up. Bugeras blatant ripoffs sound amazingly close though. I don't know how they haven't been sued yet. Their 1990 amp, which is the JCM 900 clone, sounds so close its silly especially for the price. I want to hate it but I can't help love it too. They also have a really good Vox AC30, in fact imo it sounds better, but thats me. They also have a 3600 watt tube bass head for $600 new!!! Its so cheap that I have to assume that its just garbage, but people say it sounds pretty crazy for the price. I'm very interested to see how these Bugera amps play out because I know they are taking a LOT of business from other companies, especially since the sound is so close "normal" people can't hear the subtle differences nor do they care.
Old 27th March 2010
  #9
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They have been sued multiple times by Mackie, QSC and others for blatantly copying other people's designs.

It may sound kind of good, but their stuff will break down, and will break down just when you are counting on it in a session and/or live. You get what you pay for - ****ty components, little quality control, and it will break. That's why they're cheap. Oh, and did I mention their R&D department cost is pretty much $0, since they just rip off other people?

this is bottom of the barrel junk, comparable to Samson and other low end brands. Except Samson at least usually works and builds their own designs.

Don't be fooled by the price, and don't buy their stuff. Yes, good gear is more expensive, but you're only supporting thieves by buying Behringer/Bugera. If you can't afford it, do without until you can.
Old 27th March 2010
  #10
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octatonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nedorama View Post
They have been sued multiple times by Mackie, QSC and others for blatantly copying other people's designs.

It may sound kind of good, but their stuff will break down, and will break down just when you are counting on it in a session and/or live. You get what you pay for - ****ty components, little quality control, and it will break. That's why they're cheap. Oh, and did I mention their R&D department cost is pretty much $0, since they just rip off other people?

this is bottom of the barrel junk, comparable to Samson and other low end brands. Except Samson at least usually works and builds their own designs.

Don't be fooled by the price, and don't buy their stuff. Yes, good gear is more expensive, but you're only supporting thieves by buying Behringer/Bugera. If you can't afford it, do without until you can.
I am no fan of Behringer at all.
(Hell, I started this thread.)

The 'copying designs' thing is tricky.
How many guitar manufacturers can copy the basic Fender/Gibson designs?
Old 27th March 2010
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by octatonic View Post

The 'copying designs' thing is tricky.

The first mesa boogies were just modded Fender amps. Copying a design is the last reason I wouldn't buy something, I'm just more concerned w/how long it lasts. As w/most products their first ones had some issues, but un-behringer like they worked quickly to fix most of the issues, and the word on the street now is that most of their amps are mostly problem free now. To call it bottom of the barrel junk is just ignorant. And by that claim alone I can assume that you have never owned or probably even used one of these amps. I still think they're pretty exciting, but then again I'm just another mindless drone buying into their evil commercial trickery.
Old 27th March 2010
  #12
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octatonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dysenterygary View Post
The first mesa boogies were just modded Fender amps. Copying a design is the last reason I wouldn't buy something, I'm just more concerned w/how long it lasts.
Me also.

Behringer bug me because they dumb everything down.
I understand that they are making these products for 'people who are not me'.

If I was a 17 year old guitarist into, for example, Lamb of God then there would be no way I could afford a Mark IV.
A magician might be a close approximation (until it breaks).

Behringer are making these products for those sorts of people.
Hobbyists, weekend warriors and the like.

They sill suck.
Old 28th March 2010
  #13
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Well - about the Mesa rectum-fryer ripoff - take a look at a Soldano SLO-100 schematic sometime... gee, I wonder where Mesa got some of those circuit ideas.
Old 28th March 2010
  #14
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Dr. Mordo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dysenterygary View Post
The first mesa boogies were just modded Fender amps.
And the first Gibsons were Bassman copies, and Matchless are modded Vox.

I have no problem whatsoever with people copying a 20-50 year old design. And I'll buy what sounds good, no matter who makes it. I have no pride when it comes to sound. However, in my relatively limited experience, Behringer stuff isn't a very good copy. Yes it's cheap, but it often doesn't sound as good. I A/B'd all those cheapo pedals that came out a few years back against their source pedals, and only one sounded as good. I forgot which one it was. It was definitely made more cheaply, but also cost far less. If you needed it for occasional use in your studio, it'd be fine.

So, I haven't heard a Bugera. I doubt it'd be comparable to a Vox or a Mesa. But if it is, I can hardly resist buying a AC30 for $350, even if just for occasional use in my studio. If it lasts five years, and breaks where I can't fix it, I'll buy another one. They are almost disposable at that price.
Old 28th March 2010
  #15
Gear Addict
 

Berhinger also copies the ashdown mag 300 bass amp, looks the same and the eq is identical (very rare eq) behringer's version is called bx4500h
the octave circuit on the behringer sounds better, but the ashdown amp sounds 10 times better than the behringer, the difference in price is just $100
I own both heads, one stays at the rehearsal room, the other lives in my car.
I beleive that 90% of what they make (B) is ****. saying that name makes me sick... heh

Uli: how can you sleep at night?
Old 28th March 2010
  #16
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He sleeps at night when people put forth these arguments.

If it's a copy of a strat or a gibson, then it's a copy. If you do something different and/or improve great. But if it's the same, it's a cheap copy.

Randall Smith did start by hotrodding Princetons until Fender got suspicious of all the transformers someone was ordering in Petaluma. Did he copy their amps? No, he came up with a hot rodded design - not a clone/exact copy of an existing amp.

Matchless and others have done what Vox couldn't do - produce a reliable EL84-powered amp that sounded great and could be gigged all the time. Old Voxes were cranky and blew up, and before the reissues came out, you couldn't get a new one. Open the two up side by side and you'll see some similarities - same tubes, cathode-biased -- but they're not the same amp.

Open up a Behringer EP5000 power amp and you're staring at an exact copy of a QSC power amp. Not improved, just copied with cheaper, ****tier parts.

When you copy something exactly without improving it or adding something dramatically different, you're a hack. When you copy something with inferior components and it sounds like ****, you're worse. Unfortunately, lots of people will see their stuff in Musician's Friend/AMS/Guitar Center and be wowed at their prices and fall for it.

I'm sure there are those on GS and other clueless people who will continue to buy their stuff because it's cheap; it's helpful to know why it is cheaper than the real stuff.

Again, copying a design, but using cheaper different parts is just dumb - the manufacturers they copied used the parts they did for a reason, and it wasn't because they wanted to price themselves out of the market. It's because they thought it was the best compromise between cost and reliability. Behringer takes the quality/reliability out of the equation and just focuses on producing the cheapest copy they can.
Old 28th March 2010
  #17
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lordnielson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kafka View Post
Mesa isn't the only one. Look familiar?



LO fvkkin L

Behringer is a virus. When there's nothing left to feed on it dies.

When there's no one left to copy, Behringer will perish.
Old 28th March 2010
  #18
RiF
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€951 / $1179... hmmmm... dunno...
Old 31st March 2010
  #19
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Personally all I care about is how they sound.
The 333 and 333XL models have proven themselves to be good amps and MANY people prefer them over the amps they copy.
I own the 333XL personally and I prefer it over the JSX despite the fact the JSX costs 3 times more (In Australia).
If you lived in Australia like I did, stuff like the Dual Recto just aren't feasible purchases. We are talking more than 4 grand here, I **** you not.
Old 1st April 2010
  #20
js1
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Glad to see that they're copying Mesa. Because... the description of the amp sure makes it sounds like they've cloned the Mark IV and Rectifier. Which are protected by at least 5 Mesa patents.

Hope they have the resources to sue 'em.

This entire new line are clones of the flagship amps of Marshall, Mesa, Matchless, Ampeg, Ashdown, etc. They're not "inspired by", they're cherry-picked clones. This is just wrong.

Would be interesting to see how the German government would react if GM released a new line of clone autos such as the "BNW three-three-o and AWDI Before".

js
Old 1st April 2010
  #21
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dysenterygary's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by js1 View Post
Glad to see that they're copying Mesa. Because... the description of the amp sure makes it sounds like they've cloned the Mark IV and Rectifier. Which are protected by at least 5 Mesa patents.

Hope they have the resources to sue 'em.

This entire new line are clones of the flagship amps of Marshall, Mesa, Matchless, Ampeg, Ashdown, etc. They're not "inspired by", they're cherry-picked clones. This is just wrong.

Would be interesting to see how the German government would react if GM released a new line of clone autos such as the "BNW three-three-o and AWDI Before".

js
Thats what has me wondering too. But as we know VERY well here in the audio industry just because something is marketed as a clone definitely doesn't mean that it is a clone. For instance the TRI REC is only a 100 watt head, not 150 like the triple rec, and it has reverb which the triple doesn't. (last time I checked at least). So there are obviously some very large internal differences already, and it wouldn't be hard to change a few more things to get around some minor patent issues.
Old 1st April 2010
  #22
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And it looks like the tri rec has a built in power attenuator allowing you to push the amp hard while staying at a reasonable level. That you definitely can't do w/my triple rec and is an awesome feature IMO. Gearslutz seems to be the only place that defaults to hating anything and everything possibly related to behringer. I think you guys need to just chill out. The guy a while ago said that if they don't do anything to change or improve the amp its just a cheap copy. Well obviously the DID do things to change AND improve the design. If this was any other company like say.. golden age projects, you guys would be frothing at the mouth.
Old 1st April 2010
  #23
js1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dysenterygary View Post
I think you guys need to just chill out. The guy a while ago said that if they don't do anything to change or improve the amp its just a cheap copy. Well obviously the DID do things to change AND improve the design.
Then, if they are so original, why make them look like the other amps? Why come up with names that refer to the original amps? Why do they steal the the control layout, and the feature set of existing respected amps?

Why don't they make real changes, not minor schematic tweaks (if any)? Why don't they create and market an original design with original cosmetics? Why not make it better and let it stand on (and develop) Behringer's reputation, not trading on the reputation of Ampeg, Ashdown, Mesa, Marshall, Matchless et al.

Like, that's gonna happen.

js
Old 1st April 2010
  #24
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dysenterygary's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by js1 View Post
Then, if they are so original, why make them look like the other amps? Why come up with names that refer to the original amps? Why do they steal the the control layout, and the feature set of existing respected amps?

Why don't they make real changes, not minor schematic tweaks (if any)? Why don't they create and market an original design with original cosmetics? Why not make it better and let it stand on (and develop) Behringer's reputation, not trading on the reputation of Ampeg, Ashdown, Mesa, Marshall, Matchless et al.

Like, that's gonna happen.

js
I never claimed anything about originality! But its already been shown in this thread that many of the amps that are hugely respected started out as small tweaks and changes on an existing design. I will not deny that they are making very close duplicates of very popular amps and marketing them towards a GIANT market of people that simply couldn't afford the over priced "real" amps. To me there is nothing wrong w/that. This is capitalism baby. Maybe its the fact that I love buying store brands because sometimes you get that store brand item thats actually better than the item its mimicking. I think some of these bugera amps might be just that. Or maybe they're ****! I don't know, or really care, but I am interested in trying one out sometime.
Old 1st April 2010
  #25
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Changing just enough of a design not to get sued doesn't count for most people as original - it's still ****ty. And usually still leaves them liable, as it shows what was willfully done knowing of other designs vs. miraculously happening to copy it.

It's not just Gearslutz that hates Behringer. Sweetwater has stopped carrying their products, and they carry just about everything. Go on other pro forums (not DJ forums) and you'll see that Behringer is thought of just as poorly, if not moreso.

The only piece they have that's partially original and even somewhat redeemable is their ADA8000 ADAT pre, and only because it doesn't have to do much, and are cheap enough you can buy a spare to carry if/when it breaks down or starts making the well-documented frying eggs sound when the DAC's break down - and why do they break down? Because they're cheaply made with cheap parts.

Uli just bought Midas as well as Klark Teknik at the end of 2009; I'm sure it is only a matter of time before Behringer tries to either rebrand their rack crap under those names or introduce new low end MI/DJ gear with those brand names slapped on them.

Also, if Behringer is such a great brand, why have they taken so much effort to hide that brand name from new consumers with their Bugera branding?

You can put all the lipstick on a pig you want, but in the end it's still a frick'in' pig.
Old 1st April 2010
  #26
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octatonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dysenterygary View Post
Gearslutz seems to be the only place that defaults to hating anything and everything possibly related to behringer.
No, you are wrong.

The Gear Page do it also.
and Huge Racks Inc.
and Birds and Moons.
Boogie Board also.

and with good reason.
They rank slightly below most politicians but a bit more than pedophiles, mormons and people who talk at the theatre.
Old 2nd April 2010
  #27
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Harry Hughes's Avatar
 

Anyway guys, welcome to Australia.
Do you guys know how much a Road King head costs here?
I will assure you, any of you North Americans see the price tag for it, you will just **** bricks.
A Soldano SLO-100 is quite literally 8999 AUD here. Great amps, but honestly at that price, it's like April Fool's being pulled on you every single day.
I don't care if they use freaking gold components, no guitar amp is worth 9 grand
Old 2nd April 2010
  #28
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Ron Vogel's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by octatonic View Post
Me also.

Behringer bug me because they dumb everything down.
I understand that they are making these products for 'people who are not me'.

If I was a 17 year old guitarist into, for example, Lamb of God then there would be no way I could afford a Mark IV.
A magician might be a close approximation (until it breaks).

Behringer are making these products for those sorts of people.
Hobbyists, weekend warriors and the like.

They sill suck.

I agree, and can relate this to tools for the guys over here in the US.

Pros are using snap-on, ingersoll-rand, matco; which I wold compare with matchless, marshall, fender, etc.

People that are hobbyists are going to be using black and decker, harbor frieght where they don't have to depend on their tools for income...and hell I've had harbor frieght tools that didn't last all the way through the first project. Cheap junk...it's a tool for a job, and it works but if you're a pro you know better for the long-term.

Berenhger = Harbor frieght tools:
Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices
Old 2nd April 2010
  #29
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octatonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Hughes View Post
Anyway guys, welcome to Australia.
Do you guys know how much a Road King head costs here?
I will assure you, any of you North Americans see the price tag for it, you will just **** bricks.
A Soldano SLO-100 is quite literally 8999 AUD here. Great amps, but honestly at that price, it's like April Fool's being pulled on you every single day.
I don't care if they use freaking gold components, no guitar amp is worth 9 grand
I am Australian, I bought a Dual Recto in 1995 or so for around $2500 (used).
There is no way I would buy a new Mesa in Oz again after I bought a DC5 new in 1993. It cost a fortune.
The importers put a huge markup on them- pretty much double the price (Pro Audio in Canberra).

I recently had a look at the price of 65 Amps in Oz as well.
$5k for a Soho 2x12 combo.

Even with freight and 10% gst there is still a huge markup going on.
The problem with Australia is distance and low sales due to small population.

I sympathise- I put up with it for years.
At least you have good weather. :-)
Old 2nd April 2010
  #30
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Quote:
I don't care if they use freaking gold components, no guitar amp is worth 9 grand
Take a look at a Dumble... IF he deems you worthy of building you one. I believe they're about 25k usd each.

If you don't want to wait, you can get the awfully-close-to-dumble Two-Rock - for about 8k (USD).
"-)
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