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Behringer are at it again.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #31
Old 4th April 2010
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Scott View Post
Hilarious. The description is a knee slapper.
Old 4th April 2010
  #33
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I can't hate cost reduction. Half the designs were novel 20 or more years ago and are well understood + their patents have expired. This is normal in the computer industry and is good for music. Why shouldn't people with little money to spend have access to the tools and the sound their looking for without spending a ton. Behringer may not make the highest quality, but I've owned some of the 'quality' gear before and while the sound might be there the support was not. The big companies better start innovating or their going to get their lunch eaten as their IP becomes accessible.
Old 4th April 2010
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sprack View Post
I can't hate cost reduction. Half the designs were novel 20 or more years ago and are well understood + their patents have expired. This is normal in the computer industry and is good for music. Why shouldn't people with little money to spend have access to the tools and the sound their looking for without spending a ton. Behringer may not make the highest quality, but I've owned some of the 'quality' gear before and while the sound might be there the support was not. The big companies better start innovating or their going to get their lunch eaten as their IP becomes accessible.
I've seen it happen and that is precisely why I dislike cost reduction.
I am perfectly happy to pay top dollar for a top shelf product.

Steinberger guitars are one such company that didn't survive- they are a shadow of their former self.

Fender CBS period are mostly awful, despite what most people say about theirs 'I got a good one'. Yeah, right- why are you selling it then if it is so awesome?

PRS also had to make a lot of changes to their guitars when they went factory.

All these changes made to guitars to make them more competitive has made them worse guitars as expressive instruments.
They are cheaper, sure- but not better and in some cases not even good.
Old 6th April 2010
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sprack View Post
I can't hate cost reduction. Half the designs were novel 20 or more years ago and are well understood + their patents have expired. This is normal in the computer industry and is good for music. Why shouldn't people with little money to spend have access to the tools and the sound their looking for without spending a ton. Behringer may not make the highest quality, but I've owned some of the 'quality' gear before and while the sound might be there the support was not. The big companies better start innovating or their going to get their lunch eaten as their IP becomes accessible.
With most 'classics'.. the design is only part of the equation - the quality and part choices are what help make the big differences. I mentioned earlier in this thread- go look at schematics of a SLO100, dual-rectifier and even a 5150.. you won't see much in the way of design differences, but they definitely sound different.
Old 7th April 2010
  #36
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I won't argue that a knockoff or a cost-reduced version will be as good. It doesn't have to be. Only 'almost' as good. In the case of Behringer they have the perception of super low cost with improving quality, no where to go but up. Companies like Mesa, PRS, etc have a lot to lose by stooping to fight them.

I'm just spouting this rhetoric because I see this trend constantly as an IHV in the computer industry.
Old 10th April 2010
  #37
Gear Addict
 

wow, look at this:

BEHRINGER: Home

heh

looks like fender, krk, m-audio, mackie, .... just to name a few
Old 10th April 2010
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reflixtinian View Post
wow, look at this:

BEHRINGER: Home

heh

looks like fender, krk, m-audio, mackie, .... just to name a few
I don't have problem with any of their stuff and I'm sure the manufacturers they copy don't either. Otherwise, they'd be sued every day of the week [by literally100's of companies]. Has anyone here thought that the designs may be licensed? And I know from what the UBK Fatso guy says in another forum that it is not illegal to base a design on another piece of hardware. Most of the base designs being used are over 25 years old anyway. People here should just get over it and make music.
Old 10th April 2010
  #39
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The reason (almost) nobody sues Behringer is because you are almost guaranteed not to win. Unless your circuit has something patented in it (and almost none do), your only legal protections are copyright (on the schematic) and trademark (on the look or 'trade dress'). Both bases are extremely difficult to prove.

In essence, you have to show that Behringer copied your schematic and used it to design their piece. I don't mean copied the design, I mean literally photocopied your schematic and just built from it.

If Behringer simply took your manufactured pcb, traced all the connections and came up with their own schematic --- essentially reverse engineering a clone --- they can manufacture it, claim the ip, and be within their rights.

The only reason Mackie successfully won is because Mackie's schematic contained a mistake that they caught in prototype, made a new rev of, and released the corrected version. The pcb in Behringer's 8-buss ripoff actually contained Mackie's mistake, so it was obvious they used a copy of Mackie's original schematic to build their design.

The law is set up this way because the government wants its policies to favor innovation and progress; as such, it favors the allowance of a generous degree of copying with the understanding that most entities will simultaneously refine and improve a design, so society ostensibly benefits. If IP law were too restrictive, far fewer companies would develop new designs for fear of losing their shirts.

The way I see it, the cheap clones generally do not kill the expensive boutique toys, as they are not competing for the same market. They may take a slice off the top of the high end's sales, but such is life in a market where competition is the default assumption. Overall, though, anything that forces the truly ingenius designers to up their game is, in the long term, of benefit to everyone.


Gregory Scott - ubk
Old 10th April 2010
  #40
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weird lots of people have a problem with behringer but all the Neve cloners, api cloners etc... get a pass. Makes no sense
Old 10th April 2010
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
The reason (almost) nobody sues Behringer is because you are almost guaranteed not to win. Unless your circuit has something patented in it (and almost none do), your only legal protections are copyright (on the schematic) and trademark (on the look or 'trade dress'). Both bases are extremely difficult to prove.

In essence, you have to show that Behringer copied your schematic and used it to design their piece. I don't mean copied the design, I mean literally photocopied your schematic and just built from it.

If Behringer simply took your manufactured pcb, traced all the connections and came up with their own schematic --- essentially reverse engineering a clone --- they can manufacture it, claim the ip, and be within their rights.

The only reason Mackie successfully won is because Mackie's schematic contained a mistake that they caught in prototype, made a new rev of, and released the corrected version. The pcb in Behringer's 8-buss ripoff actually contained Mackie's mistake, so it was obvious they used a copy of Mackie's original schematic to build their design.

The law is set up this way because the government wants its policies to favor innovation and progress; as such, it favors the allowance of a generous degree of copying with the understanding that most entities will simultaneously refine and improve a design, so society ostensibly benefits. If IP law were too restrictive, far fewer companies would develop new designs for fear of losing their shirts.

The way I see it, the cheap clones generally do not kill the expensive boutique toys, as they are not competing for the same market. They may take a slice off the top of the high end's sales, but such is life in a market where competition is the default assumption. Overall, though, anything that forces the truly ingenius designers to up their game is, in the long term, of benefit to everyone.


Gregory Scott - ubk
Thanks for clarifying that Greg. It's a pity artistic copyright doesn't allow for references more easily...
Old 11th April 2010
  #42
maq
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertshaw View Post
weird lots of people have a problem with behringer but all the Neve cloners, api cloners etc... get a pass. Makes no sense
Good point, plus I don't see a lot of crossover in the demographic that's going to buy Brugera vs. their boutique counterparts.
Old 11th April 2010
  #43
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Heh while I'm here it should be noted that certainly the 333 and 333XL are not totally direct copies of the amps they apparently emulate.
Neither feature the resonance knobs of the originals.
My 333XL also has 2 inputs, high gain and low gain, again not featured on the original.
The tonality is also different enough to discern it from the original, in the same way you can discern the 5150/6505 from the Soldano SLO-100 from which it's based on
Old 17th April 2010
  #44
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertshaw View Post
weird lots of people have a problem with behringer but all the Neve cloners, api cloners etc... get a pass. Makes no sense
+1

The number of 1073 etc etc clones which are out there is ridiculous, but few seem to complain about them. I reckon why this is the case is because Behringer truly rip things off in the numbers.

TBH, I don't think Behringer/Bugera are actually taking any of Mesa Boogie's customers. Anyone who can afford it will get a Mesa Boogie where possible. Those who can't afford a Mesa will get one.

The lack of Intellectual Property for particular designs being 'taken' by Behringer is an a different issue. It's a bit harsh for smaller companies to have their designs ripped off brutally. This for example is an absolute disgrace. BEHRINGER: VM1 Electro Harmonix have come out with a cheaper Analog Delay though. I wonder if that release was to compete with Behringer.

I spent some time travelling around and when I was Indonesia I had a jam with some locals and in the rehearsal studio pretty much all the gear was Behringer. They asked me about what guitars I had back at home, and I felt guilty to say Gibsons and stuff like that. They stated all their gear was Behringer as it quite simply is the cheapest around. A Gibson SG which is a few weeks wages for the average Brit/Yank would be a year's salary for many.

Gear snobbery for many quite simply isn't justified. For those who it is, then one should be wise enough to choose their options wisely. Behringer aren't the first company to offer cheap instruments and equipment for relatively low amounts of money and won't be the last to do so. Ultimately I believe that for most of the time you get what you pay for. Be it a cheap Behringer Boss copy or the Boss original. One will be fine for bedroom practise only, but the other will be able to take gigging.

On the subject of amp copies though, CeriaTone.Com - DIY Guitar Tube Amp this guy gets my vote.
Old 20th April 2010
  #45
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This thread really turned around!! Glad to see people starting to talk some sense, and thanks Greg for the details on schematic copyright infringement.
Old 21st April 2010
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Mordo View Post
And the first Gibsons were Bassman copies, and Matchless are modded Vox.
as were the first marshalls if I'm not mistaken.

nothign wrong with that.

and for what it's worth, bugera amps soudn really good. they're the deal of the year - like the behringer v-verb was. great tones for cheap prices but with build quality you'll just have to be a little careful with.

EDIT: ps I don't love behringer guitar cabs much though. I've used their bass amp heads professionally with great results and enjoyed one of their amp heads for a while now. but it sure is embarrassing to show that logo on a stage LoL...
Old 21st April 2010
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertshaw View Post
weird lots of people have a problem with behringer but all the Neve cloners, api cloners etc... get a pass. Makes no sense
which are far more of a direct ripoff than most of what behringer creates. behringer that looks identical TYPICALLY is different on the inside from the original (although there are rare brief exceptions... in behringer history). And those that look a little different often use identical circuits to some other existing product...

it's clever. and it's not the first time this has been done.

Peavey did it for years with their first vocal pa/mic combo systems.

some of the best japanese and korean guitar manufacturers that stand on their own now originally made clone ripoffs of american guitars (often including the fake original name like gibson or fender!!)

behringer isn't all that bad guys.

people freak but honestly some of their stuff improves upon the gear they rip off. just like vintage marshall amps compared to vintage bassmans and so on, and in fact almost every tube guitar amp in existence which uses one of a few standard circuits just in different combinations and with different switching combinations and parts/build quality.
Old 21st April 2010
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkelley View Post
which are far more of a direct ripoff than most of what behringer creates. behringer that looks identical TYPICALLY is different on the inside from the original (although there are rare brief exceptions... in behringer history). And those that look a little different often use identical circuits to some other existing product...

it's clever. and it's not the first time this has been done.

Peavey did it for years with their first vocal pa/mic combo systems.

some of the best japanese and korean guitar manufacturers that stand on their own now originally made clone ripoffs of american guitars (often including the fake original name like gibson or fender!!)

behringer isn't all that bad guys.

people freak but honestly some of their stuff improves upon the gear they rip off. just like vintage marshall amps compared to vintage bassmans and so on, and in fact almost every tube guitar amp in existence which uses one of a few standard circuits just in different combinations and with different switching combinations and parts/build quality.
Indeed, I feel the Bugera 333 is actually a big improvement on the Peavey Triple XXX that it apparently copies.
And hell in Australia, the Bugera is like, virtually 1/3rd the price.
My Bugera 333XL that I bought (they retail for 1119 AUD) EASILY stands up against the JSX head that costs 3499 AUD
Old 21st April 2010
  #49
RTR
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Hate to tell ya all but those amps sound pretty damn good, and it is not anything new, these been out for a while!! Quit hating!heh
Old 21st April 2010
  #50
RTR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkelley View Post
which are far more of a direct ripoff than most of what behringer creates. behringer that looks identical TYPICALLY is different on the inside from the original (although there are rare brief exceptions... in behringer history). And those that look a little different often use identical circuits to some other existing product...

it's clever. and it's not the first time this has been done.

Peavey did it for years with their first vocal pa/mic combo systems.

some of the best japanese and korean guitar manufacturers that stand on their own now originally made clone ripoffs of american guitars (often including the fake original name like gibson or fender!!)

behringer isn't all that bad guys.

people freak but honestly some of their stuff improves upon the gear they rip off. just like vintage marshall amps compared to vintage bassmans and so on, and in fact almost every tube guitar amp in existence which uses one of a few standard circuits just in different combinations and with different switching combinations and parts/build quality.

+10000 Ill also add that no matter what some people say behringer is 90% hated on because people spent way to much money on something we can get cheap..just like the mastering guys throwing a fit over a guy mastering in his basement even though it may sound just as good as the ME's would!! If you hate it..dont use it..end of story...do people really need the attention of posting a thread over the same old tired subject? we need another behringer hate thread as bad as we need another "Loud mixes" or "Auto tune " thread!
I guess some parents did not give their kids enough attention
Old 21st April 2010
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RTR View Post
+10000 Ill also add that no matter what some people say behringer is 90% hated on because people spent way to much money on something we can get cheap..just like the mastering guys throwing a fit over a guy mastering in his basement even though it may sound just as good as the ME's would!!
Mastering Engineers don't get angry because some one is doing as good a job as them for cheaper.
They never do as good a job.
Never.
Old 28th April 2010
  #52
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i work at a music store, and every time we sell a bugera, they tend to come back with a problem.
Old 29th April 2010
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertshaw View Post
weird lots of people have a problem with behringer but all the Neve cloners, api cloners etc... get a pass. Makes no sense
The Neve/API cloners don't use substandard components, they're built to last, they don't malfunction out of the box, and they have a decent warranty and support.

No comparision, apple & oranges.
Old 29th April 2010
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real MC View Post
The Neve/API cloners don't use substandard components, they're built to last, they don't malfunction out of the box, and they have a decent warranty and support.

No comparision, apple & oranges.
No it's a fair comparison, because a lot of the vitriol directed at B*******r is against the fact that they rip off existing designs.
Old 30th April 2010
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrisio View Post
No it's a fair comparison, because a lot of the vitriol directed at B*******r is against the fact that they rip off existing designs.
Well - to be fair... the Neve cloners all started making them when Neve was NOT OFFERING versions of their classic 1073/1081 modules - so they were filling a void (not to mention making clones of a product that was 20+ years out of production). Neve then saw the desire and put out their own remake.

Behringer makes knockoffs of current/available products - which rubs a lot of people wrong I guess. It's too bad, because some of their truly original pieces have been pretty darn good units (v-verb anyone?)
Old 31st May 2010
  #56
Gear Maniac
 

Off topic, but Amish, is that a tattoo? (pic in your avatar)

If so , thats badass!!!

Jim
Old 1st June 2010
  #57
Gear Nut
 

If you guys are so upset about ****ty clones, why is no one whining about Line6 Pods?

Their whole product is just providing a cheap alternative to the real thing.

They even name them after the products they copy with some little change.


Who even cares? If your dumb enough to buy it just buy the GC insurance for like 35$, then its actually not even that bad of a deal, as long as you dont gig with it.

Old 5th June 2010
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamlive View Post
If you guys are so upset about ****ty clones, why is no one whining about Line6 Pods?

Their whole product is just providing a cheap alternative to the real thing.

I don't think anyone is lamenting cheap alternatives. I think people are lamenting outright copies of other companies' actual circuits.

Line 6 models a sound using radically different technology. Behringer literally copies circuits of other companies who are still producing the goods.

Huge difference.

But regardless, people on this site whine about Line 6 Pods all the time. If you doubt this, start a thread entitled "My POD sounds as good as the real thing." heh


Gregory Scott - ubk
Old 5th June 2010
  #59
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggator6 View Post
Take a look at a Dumble... IF he deems you worthy of building you one. I believe they're about 25k usd each.

If you don't want to wait, you can get the awfully-close-to-dumble Two-Rock - for about 8k (USD).
"-)
Pay $25,000 for an amp and go play $50 dolar gigs. My friend has a Dumble. It's just a souped up fender. Ehehehe. If I had 25 grand I would take the family on vacations!
There's the sound you make and there's gear lust, or gear illusion, when you think that by owning something you will sound like somebody else.
Behringer and Dumble are two extremes, and they're both rippoffs.
heh
But then, if you use the gear, and you get whatever return from it, then it's worth whatever it's worth to you! Like they say, whatever floats your boat...
(Zipping up the flamesuit) Ehehehehe
Old 5th June 2010
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RTR View Post
just like the mastering guys throwing a fit over a guy mastering in his basement even though it may sound just as good as the ME's would!!
lololoolololololololoolololololololoolol troll hahahahaahahah
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