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What should I buy?? Super Reverb or Deluxe Reverb??
Old 27th July 2020
  #61
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post
John... I wish we lived closer, I’d give you this deluxe to f around with for a few days... it’s remarkable

Just for giggles, when the world opens again, go noodle around through one in a gtr center

In a studio setting (which is where mine lives) it’s particularly impressive

Here’s my new compact recording rig
Is it always upside down?


Old 27th July 2020
  #62
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomPaul View Post
I had a hot rod deville too and it was a piece of junk. I had it repaired three times and finally gave up on it. I have a 65 deluxe reverb that has never had an issue in the last 15 years that I have owned it.
The Hot Rod series is poorly designed and the build quality is, at best awful.

They are also REALLY difficult to work on, which makes them expensive to get fixed.
Old 27th July 2020
  #63
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post
Don’t believe everything you read... I have a stock normal one and a mike landau version and they’ve been solid forever...

I think you just got a lemon
Nah - you're just lucky enough to get one of the rare reliable ones. Or you don't use it much.

Dunno about the Landau - my guess is that it's just as difficult to work on as the stock ones, but maybe it's better made. Can't say without opening one up.
Old 27th July 2020
  #64
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bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Nah - you're just lucky enough to get one of the rare reliable ones. Or you don't use it much.

Dunno about the Landau - my guess is that it's just as difficult to work on as the stock ones, but maybe it's better made. Can't say without opening one up.
I guess we’re lucky!!
Old 29th July 2020
  #65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Unfortunately there was no piggy back version of the Super.
But Bandmaster (like Concert), or the Showman and Dual Showman (like Twin w/t reverb) or even Tremolux (same as Vibrolux ) are available as heads and will all outperform a Princeton.
Yeah, Princetons are cool little amps, but too often, I can't make them work on the gig where the amp is not mic'd up.

Fender made a Deluxe Reverb head in 2013 for a few years. But prices are nutty for what they are, if you can find one for sale.

I've got a 90's blond tolex 65 Deluxe verb re-ish that I'll put up against any vintage 60's Deluxe verb. Had four 60's D's, and this one stands up to them on the gig just fine for reliability, tone and that "Deluxe" signature vibe. Nearly every time I bring it to a gig, someone wants to buy it.
Old 29th July 2020
  #66
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
Nearly every time I bring it to a gig, someone wants to buy it.
That's definitely a sign of something.
Old 29th July 2020
  #67
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
That's definitely a sign of something.
Right. I'm sure part of the appeal is that it's original blond Tolex. Not that many of them around. Not worth much, $1k tops. But it also sounds great, all stock.
Old 30th July 2020
  #68
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enorbet2's Avatar
I hesitate to mention this here since it is by no means a quick fix but Princetons can handle most common bar gigs without being mic'ed up with just a few mods to increase clean headroom and drive.

The first and easiest area to address is speaker. Just a single quality 12inch speaker can make a very noticeable difference in apparent volume. Even a stock Princeton gets pretty monstrous through a good 4x12, assuming impedance match of course. Speakers aren't actually "loads". They are "engines".

Minor mods like increasing filter cap values go a long way to increasing the current reservoir that facilitates solid headroom. If that gets your amp too clean, ie too little sag, get it back by reducing negative feedback and/or reducing B- bias voltage a wee bit (the latter best done with proper metering).

The weakest link in the Princeton gain staging is the driver. It is VERY different from any higher powered Fender even a Deluxe, being a Split-Phase type Inverter. Rewiring it to clone a Deluxe type driver stage makes a Princeton almost indistinguishable from a Deluxe, especially if the caps have been upgraded too. A Princeton so modded WILL drop your jaw.
Old 30th July 2020
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
+10 on a good tube Traynor - secret weapon for decades. Somewhat Marshall-ish tone.
Traynor gave a bunch of amps to me in the very early 70s. Dual 8x10 cabinets, huge heads...couple of systems like that. I used them off/on for about a year and don't remember them being anything special in stage or in the studio. Sort of like my Sunn setup at lower volumes, blase at cranked. Maybe too many speakers connected at the same time. Everything I used kept driving me to Marshall.

That bassbreaker from the other guy's earlier video sounds pretty cool.
Old 31st July 2020
  #70
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enorbet2's Avatar
Yeah, the noodle, I agree. Traynors were always just good modding platforms to me. Too tame. They don't "open up" to become nostrils-flared, foaming stallions with sparks flying off their hooves unless modded. Add a little drive.. a little sparkle, a lot less negative feedback and you can get a "thoroughbred" or at least a feisty renegade.
Old 31st July 2020
  #71
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
I hesitate to mention this here since it is by no means a quick fix but Princetons can handle most common bar gigs without being mic'ed up with just a few mods to increase clean headroom and drive.
Sounds like great mods, but beyond my capabilities. Speaker I can do, but getting into electronics, nope. Love to try it out, the cost of pro mods on top of the $2300 for the '64 re-issue gets you up into some pretty rare air for a 1-10", 12 watt amp.

Of course you can get lower-range new models and even vintage Princetons for around a grand.

If you can do them yourself, heck yeah, giddyup!
Old 31st July 2020
  #72
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoodle View Post
That bassbreaker from the other guy's earlier video sounds pretty cool.
Maybe I missed something but I cannot recall a video on the Bassbreaker 45. Who shared the video?

Thank
Old 31st July 2020
  #73
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
The weakest link in the Princeton gain staging is the driver. It is VERY different from any higher powered Fender even a Deluxe, being a Split-Phase type Inverter. Rewiring it to clone a Deluxe type driver stage makes a Princeton almost indistinguishable from a Deluxe, especially if the caps have been upgraded too. A Princeton so modded WILL drop your jaw.
I am not too sure of what you mean by a ''Split-phase type inverter'' but it is interesting to see that Pricetons have about half the power of a Deluxe. Is a Deluxe class AB and a Princeton Class A?

Thank
Old 31st July 2020
  #74
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTheMan06 View Post
I am not too sure of what you mean by a ''Split-phase type inverter'' but it is interesting to see that Pricetons have about half the power of a Deluxe. Is a Deluxe class AB and a Princeton Class A?

Thank
The PI in a Princeton uses 1/2 of a 12AX7, plate on one side out, cathode on the other. As such, the stage cannot have a gain greater than (just under) 1.

The Deluxe uses both sides of a 12AT7 tube (slightly lower gain, greater current) in a "long tailed pair" configuration, with the tubes capable of full output (I don't remember what the gain factor is but it's definitely greater than 1!)

The Princeton is also cathode biased, which brings it closer to Class A.
Old 31st July 2020
  #75
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enorbet2's Avatar
Well, Tweed Princetons' were cathode biased and full Class A because they only had one 6V6 - single-ended. Every Princeton with 2 x 6V6s is "fixed bias", in other words has a B- supply and an adjusting pot on most versions. Those are Class AB, though they can be modded for Push-Pull Class A.

The gain of the Long Tailed Pair of 12AT7s is roughly 12-15 times that of the Split-Phase 12AX7. The effect of that is quite dramatic.
Old 31st July 2020
  #76
Gear Maniac
 

When I was on the search I played multiple Fenders until I finally decided on a Carr Sportsman. It’s a blend between a Princeton and a Deluxe and it’s built to last. It is a quality no nonsense amp with tone for days.
Old 2nd August 2020
  #77
Quote:
Originally Posted by melodic dreamer View Post
When I was on the search I played multiple Fenders until I finally decided on a Carr Sportsman. It’s a blend between a Princeton and a Deluxe and it’s built to last. It is a quality no nonsense amp with tone for days.
There are so many badass alternatives these days to the vintage fender designs. Victoria, Allen, Clark, Headstrong, Kendrick, Tungsten, Birdsong, etc...

I've check out many, and most are great choices, with the added feature of reliability and warranty. I've got a '64 Vibrolux Reverb that I use all the time, but only because it's been completely restored... by the guy who maintains the APS at Argonne National Lab. Dude knows analog amping like few other people on earth. He also built about ten Tweed circuit amps before stopping builds. I was lucky enough to snag two four-watt Champs and a dual-6V6 15 watt Deluxe build.
Old 4th August 2020
  #78
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTheMan06 View Post

Does it worth to pay more and buy a Super Reverb?
You can get a vintage Super Reverb for about 1/2 the price of a vintage Deluxe Reverb.

Blackface SR goes for about $1500, DR for about $2500-$3K

That said, many early Silverface models before the master volumes are very close in terms of the circuit and can be easily and cheaply modded by a tech to the black face specs and you can save some coin.

Out of the two, they are both awesome and different beasts. Deluxe is a classic, instantly recognizable tone you have heard on many, many records. I personally find it more versatile in the studio than a Super and I own a Super.

Supers have a great, classic punk tone when driven or do the SRV thing when clean(er). They are also fantastic for recording bass.

Good luck.
Old 4th August 2020
  #79
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MilkPossumSound View Post
You can get a vintage Super Reverb for about 1/2 the price of a vintage Deluxe Reverb.

Blackface SR goes for about $1500, DR for about $2500-$3K

That said, many early Silverface models before the master volumes are very close in terms of the circuit and can be easily and cheaply modded by a tech to the black face specs and you can save some coin.

Out of the two, they are both awesome and different beasts. Deluxe is a classic, instantly recognizable tone you have heard on many, many records. I personally find it more versatile in the studio than a Super and I own a Super.

Supers have a great, classic punk tone when driven or do the SRV thing when clean(er). They are also fantastic for recording bass.

Good luck.
To mod an SF amp to BF speck you would need to change the transformer and a bunch of components. Otherwise you are wasting your time and will never recoup the investment. However some boutiques may put you in the ball-park, be serviceable and (maybe) cheaper.
Deluxe uses different tubes to the SR whence the tone differences. I much prefer the muscle and presentation of the SR. DR gets mushy too quick for my liking and is a smaller tone. I am not a big fan of 6v6 anyway. I dont like the break-up
Old 4th August 2020
  #80
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doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTheMan06 View Post
I will not buy another amp from the Hot-Rod series as I am afraid to buy another lemon. I really like tone like Lenny from Stevie Ray Vaughan and I am hesitant between a Deluxe Reverb 65 or the more expensive Super Reverb. With these I will very likely buy an attenuator and a tube screamer and I have to add these costs in the equation.
You won't sound like SRV no matter what amp you choose, that's just a fact. Got that out of the way, thanks so here's my opinion:

I would highly recommend the Fender '68 Custom Deluxe, FWIW I just carried mine down the stairs and I do NOT miss my Super Reverb for this fact alone. The '68 Deluxe is more flexible and I think more transparent sounding than the '65 version. It is great for any kind of stage and it won't 'fart out' like the '68 Princeton when pushed harder (though I love the Princeton as well, amazing low end and great for recording). Obviously 10" vs 12" speakers is an important consideration.

The '68 has two channels that are voiced differently but unlike the originals or '65 reissue, you can also bridge the two channels as they are not phase-inverted. I mostly use mine like this and it works great.

As for speakers, I really like the Celestions that come with the '68 reissues series. I also own an older Vibrolux Custom and 'upgraded' it with Weber Alnico put never was happy with. I decided to put Celestion 10"s in it (same model as in the '68 Princeton). Apart from making the amp considerably lighter, it also sounds much better to my ears. The 'warmth' and 'Roundness' of the Weber Alnicos just doesn't work for me in a band context whereas the very affordable Celestions sounded great from the get-go.
Old 4th August 2020
  #81
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
To mod an SF amp to BF speck you would need to change the transformer and a bunch of components. Otherwise you are wasting your time and will never recoup the investment. However some boutiques may put you in the ball-park, be serviceable and (maybe) cheaper.
Deluxe uses different tubes to the SR whence the tone differences. I much prefer the muscle and presentation of the SR. DR gets mushy too quick for my liking and is a smaller tone. I am not a big fan of 6v6 anyway. I dont like the break-up
\

While changing out OTs isn't a huge deal beyond availability, the difference in SF OTs and BF Ots is extremely minor unless you are talking about the UltraLinear versions and the only real difference there is 2 added taps to feed the Screens. Just "tying them off" and reproducing the basic resistor feed is very close to BF... imperceptible really.

The Bias feed that loses the control in favor of Balance is a bigger deal but that's really easy to fix. The bulk of changes are added in components because Fender was still trying to get more Hi Fi instead of Instrument simple.

In short converting SF to BF or even Tweed isn't a huge deal for someone with knowledge and skill since basically it is a job of simplification.

Deluxe amps are very easy to mod to reduce mush. Just increasing filter cap values will go a long way toward that. The 6V6s can be replaced with almost any common power tubes with the same socket requirements - 6L6, EL34/6CA7, or 6550 with minor bias adjustment.

Replacing the fixed negative feedback resistor with a pot wired as a variable resistor is absolutely MAJOR in controlling breakup threshold, affecting perceived "volume" and response. Obviously speaker choice is another major factor affecting volume vs/ breakup since efficiency/sensitivity vary widely.

One choice is just choosing different stock amps "off the shelf" for a specific job. That certainly works, especially now with so many variations to choose from, and you, Yuri, are lucky enough to have lots to choose from. For others without that wealth of choice, Mods are also viable. In fact much of the wide choices available now are exactly because of learning from better mods and modders. Mesa and a hundred others started out as mods.
Old 4th August 2020
  #82
Here for the gear
 

The Super Reverb has a special place in my heart because a '65 Super Reverb RI was my gigging amp for many years and I love the huge room-filling sound of the 4x10. That said, it is a big, awkward amp to move around. It also wants to be cranked pretty loud to sound the best (because 4x10s push a lot of air). The bigger transformer, 6L6s & 4x10s give the Super a big full sound with a great low end that has a little more mid focus than some of the other Fender Reverb amps because of the 10" ads. I also love the way the amp brings out the nuances of the spring reverb.

The Deluxe Reverb is easier to lug and also sounds fantastic. The smaller transformer and 6V6 tubes mean this amp has less headroom, and breaks up at a lower volume than the Super, but this amp can still get loud and hang with a live drummer just fine. Because of the 6V6s it has a different breakup character that if I remember right is a little smoother than the Super.

Long story short, you can't go wrong with either amp if you want the classic Fender Reverb sound. In my opinion, having gigged both vintage Fender & the RIs, the RIs are of good quality & will hold up under years of abuse. Put a good set of tubes in them and get them biased properly, and you are good to go (bias may be a little cold by default from the factory to extend tube life).

As others have said, some of the boutique makers are also of very high quality and tone. Allen Amps seem to make great and pretty affordable hand-wired versions of these amps with some minor tweaks/flexibility updates. I currently have a Tone King Sky King, which I love. It has a lot more flexibility than the Fender Reverb designs (Lead channel that has more of a tweed amp vibe, and Ultralinear mode that makes it respond more like the old Valco/Supro type amps). The 1x12 cab is custom designed to sound huge, and gets close to the bigness of the Super. Overall the tone is more warm, round and never gets harsh at the top end (which you can do with a Fender Reverb), so basically my ideal Fender Reverb base sound. The only knock against the Tone King as my ultimate Fender Reverb-style amp is the Reverb & Tremolo character are different (reverb is more subtle & shimmery, tremolo is Tube Bias-type and can't get as throbby). Probably most players will actually find the refinements of the Tone King reverb & tremolo to be more usable on a usual basis, but I do love my classic Fender reverb sound & deep helicopter tremolo too much, so I get them now via other means...
Old 5th August 2020
  #83
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
\

While changing out OTs isn't a huge deal beyond availability, the difference in SF OTs and BF Ots is extremely minor unless you are talking about the UltraLinear versions and the only real difference there is 2 added taps to feed the Screens. Just "tying them off" and reproducing the basic resistor feed is very close to BF... imperceptible really.

The Bias feed that loses the control in favor of Balance is a bigger deal but that's really easy to fix. The bulk of changes are added in components because Fender was still trying to get more Hi Fi instead of Instrument simple.

In short converting SF to BF or even Tweed isn't a huge deal for someone with knowledge and skill since basically it is a job of simplification.

Deluxe amps are very easy to mod to reduce mush. Just increasing filter cap values will go a long way toward that. The 6V6s can be replaced with almost any common power tubes with the same socket requirements - 6L6, EL34/6CA7, or 6550 with minor bias adjustment.

Replacing the fixed negative feedback resistor with a pot wired as a variable resistor is absolutely MAJOR in controlling breakup threshold, affecting perceived "volume" and response. Obviously speaker choice is another major factor affecting volume vs/ breakup since efficiency/sensitivity vary widely.

One choice is just choosing different stock amps "off the shelf" for a specific job. That certainly works, especially now with so many variations to choose from, and you, Yuri, are lucky enough to have lots to choose from. For others without that wealth of choice, Mods are also viable. In fact much of the wide choices available now are exactly because of learning from better mods and modders. Mesa and a hundred others started out as mods.
Without going into technical stuff, I would say my experience is very different. I have a 1970 TwinR which we tried "converting to the BF spec". Once modded it still sounded very much like the SF it was rather then any of my 2 BF Twins (or the Dual Showman). I left it at that. A 1974 Twin we changed further , disconnection the Master Volume and attempted to change the transformer. This was quite expensive cause those transformers alone are several hundreds of $$$. That's on top of the work done. It still didn't sound like the BF but was closer. We then restored the original transformer and i sold it to a client. Kept the new transformer as a spare. I was also told that the SF trannies are higher rating because the under-powered trannies in the BF caused a lot of warranty issues for Fender. Whence the difference in sound.
The other thing to consider that all these are quite expensive these days and any mods, however small devalue them by >50%.
There are boutiques however which come very close and are easier to mod (cheaper) if need be.
Old 5th August 2020
  #84
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enorbet2's Avatar
Damn! That's a shame. Replacement Genuine Fender Output Transformers for Supers, Bandmasters, 2x6L6 etc are $75 USD here in the States.

That's also odd about alleged "Warranty Issues" as I've not seen a lot of Fenders blow OTs. It has been rare, actually. I can't say None (I would doubt my memory) but I am confidant in saying less than a handful in many decades, one of which was as a certified Fender Service Center near Washington, DC, but that could just be spin-doctoring that Fender found a cheaper source.

I don't know how extensively you chose to clone the BF circuit and I've done less than two dozen "recovery/reversion mods" like that but they were part-for-part and all my clients were pleased. That said, there is considerable variation between same model Fenders, even from the same year.
Old 5th August 2020
  #85
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Damn! That's a shame. Replacement Genuine Fender Output Transformers for Supers, Bandmasters, 2x6L6 etc are $75 USD here in the States.

That's also odd about alleged "Warranty Issues" as I've not seen a lot of Fenders blow OTs. It has been rare, actually. I can't say None (I would doubt my memory) but I am confidant in saying less than a handful in many decades, one of which was as a certified Fender Service Center near Washington, DC, but that could just be spin-doctoring that Fender found a cheaper source.

I don't know how extensively you chose to clone the BF circuit and I've done less than two dozen "recovery/reversion mods" like that but they were part-for-part and all my clients were pleased. That said, there is considerable variation between same model Fenders, even from the same year.
I was told that Replacement Genuine Fender Output Transformers on sale today are not very genuine .
We did aall the "recommended" circuit changes to a tee - wasn't the same. Was better with a new tranny - i think we used Mercury (?). But the guy i sold it to preferred the original transformer - so thats what he has got.
I have seen some Heyboer (?) from memory , those wre cheaper but were not recommended that much - who am I to argue with the mod gurus
I am sire it can be modded to be very close but at what cost which you would never recoup. Easier to buy a RI and a decent kit, throw the board out put the new circuit/tranny... in, replace the speaker with something decent (Weber, WGS... ?) and you are all good. The cost will never be recoupped but you will get a decent amp
Old 5th August 2020
  #86
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If you want a killer tone AND be able to carry easily I would go for the Blues Jr. or a valve Princeton.
Both are not very expensive and punch above their weight.
Old 5th August 2020
  #87
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doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioloud View Post
If you want a killer tone AND be able to carry easily I would go for the Blues Jr. or a valve Princeton.
Both are not very expensive and punch above their weight.
I played an 'original' tweed Blues Jr. for years in smaller settings. Really great for either going direct without effects for a dirty/bluesy sound or in a setting where my job was more about 'sound painting'.

If you need a solid, clean rhythm sound with good low-end then the Blues Jr. is NOT the right choice IMO. A Princeton might or might not work, definitely a totally different sound than the Blues Jr.

At this point I own 6 different Fender amps (68 RI Deluxe and Princeton, Vibrolux Custom, '57 Champ RI, upgraded cheap Champion 600 RI, Tweed Blues DeVille 4 x 10") Yes, they are all Fender amps with a certain general timbre but they all sound completely different and each one has specific strengths.

Another tip: If you buy a new amp then just play it a lot for a few months before upgrading/changing anything. Especially speakers will often sound considerably better with some burn-in and you might find that you don't need to change anything after all.
Old 5th August 2020
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker View Post
I played an 'original' tweed Blues Jr. for years in smaller settings. Really great for either going direct without effects for a dirty/bluesy sound or in a setting where my job was more about 'sound painting'.

If you need a solid, clean rhythm sound with good low-end then the Blues Jr. is NOT the right choice IMO. A Princeton might or might not work, definitely a totally different sound than the Blues Jr.

At this point I own 6 different Fender amps (68 RI Deluxe and Princeton, Vibrolux Custom, '57 Champ RI, upgraded cheap Champion 600 RI, Tweed Blues DeVille 4 x 10") Yes, they are all Fender amps with a certain general timbre but they all sound completely different and each one has specific strengths.

Another tip: If you buy a new amp then just play it a lot for a few months before upgrading/changing anything. Especially speakers will often sound considerably better with some burn-in and you might find that you don't need to change anything after all.
My first choice would be the Blues Deluxe too.
But the Jr. has the same type of voicing, same family... And also, surely, it does have less low end.
The big advantage is the weight.
I don't particularly enjoy dragging my Blues Deluxe around even if it's not the heaviest amp. It's perfectly doeble and i have done it for years, just not fun.
Old 5th August 2020
  #89
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enorbet2's Avatar
Guys... get an Appliance Cart if you own heavier/bulkier amps. They even work great on stairs.
Old 7th August 2020
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
A good vintage SR is a holy grail amp. Every player whose heard mine fell in love on the spot. The FEEL is amazing.
What year is your SR? Original speakers? I’m looking at getting a vintage sr soon.
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