The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Why do Cab IR's seem lacking?
Old 9th May 2020
  #1
Why do Cab IR's seem lacking?


While I posted this in another thread, I'm starting a new one that will hopefully be more technical and reasoned. I hate posting useful information in a thread that gets buried by Trollery.

For a lot of guitar sounds in recordings (or live on stage) the non-linearities of a guitar speaker are essential to the final sound. And, because impulse response modeling is a linear process, it can't capture the dynamics of an actual guitar speaker. In fact, everything about most electric guitar timbre is dependent on non-linear, low-fidelity phenomena.

Here is an actual quote by Ian White of Celestion:

"With hi-fi and pro PA speakers, we can develop finite element models and see on a screen what they're going to be doing,” Ian says. "But that's almost impossible with guitar speakers because they're so non-linear. It's difficult enough to predict how a guitar speaker is going to sound when you're feeding it a clean guitar signal, but it's the distorted stuff that really gets the cone modes going. It doesn't need to be that loud to do that — just the complexity of the signal really gets the tone humming."

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniq...uitar-speakers

I'm up for a meaningful discussion....



-tINY

Old 10th May 2020
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tINY View Post

If you run an IR into a combo, you'll get some interesting results. 2x the frequency shaping and some compression after the convolution....

The combo speaker is always non-linear - even if you drive it with a solid-state amp. Even very good Hi-Fi speakers have some non-linearities.

The consequences of non-linearities show up mostly as IMD when you drive anything but a sine wave into them.



-tINY

The combo speaker works with its own PA. Driving an IR into a combo will be akin to using any pedal. A speaker IR will just sound weird, being reshaped by the combo. Using an IR instead of the speaker (as a part of a reactive load) will still not interact with the PA same way as the speaker. I have several from Two Notes, and know what it sounds like. It maybe ok for some, but they would be missing out on all range of sounds which you can get from the speaker and mic'ing. And yes, every speaker has its own non-linearity (even from the same batch of the same brand model - guitar speaker tolerances are not the best - on purpose)
Old 10th May 2020
  #3
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tINY View Post

While I posted this in another thread, I'm starting a new one that will hopefully be more technical and reasoned. I hate posting useful information in a thread that gets buried by Trollery.

For a lot of guitar sounds in recordings (or live on stage) the non-linearities of a guitar speaker are essential to the final sound. And, because impulse response modeling is a linear process, it can't capture the dynamics of an actual guitar speaker. In fact, everything about most electric guitar timbre is dependent on non-linear, low-fidelity phenomena.

Here is an actual quote by Ian White of Celestion:

"With hi-fi and pro PA speakers, we can develop finite element models and see on a screen what they're going to be doing,” Ian says. "But that's almost impossible with guitar speakers because they're so non-linear. It's difficult enough to predict how a guitar speaker is going to sound when you're feeding it a clean guitar signal, but it's the distorted stuff that really gets the cone modes going. It doesn't need to be that loud to do that — just the complexity of the signal really gets the tone humming."

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniq...uitar-speakers

I'm up for a meaningful discussion....



-tINY

Why are cab ir's lacking? The technology is young and new. The sos article serves as an illustration to the complexity challenges.

Let's see how things develop over the next ten years.
Old 11th May 2020
  #4
Lives for gear
 
Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tINY View Post

For a majority of the general public, and especially in a dense mix, there is no audible difference. People who obsess over tone and performance are more likely to hear differences - whether and IR into an full range speaker is better or worse is still subjective. (I sometimes go to extreme measures to remove some non-linearities in my cabinets - like rattles in the panels - because I don't like those particular sounds)

As to why the non-linearities would be different between a guitar cabinet and a Hi-fi speaker: Guitar speakers are awful. Try hooking up a pair of guitar cabinets to your home stereo and listening....




-tINY

True, they are a low quality speaker. These days by design. However I remember playing a Goodman's equipped AC30 (silver speakers) and it was a very different tone to say Celestion Blues (which are pretty bad actually). Speakers were selected to compensate for deficiencies of the guitar amps (not great quality either compared to HiFi). For example AC30 is a very dark sounding amp. But with AlNicos like Blues, which have a piercing hi-end they work, Try them with a more mid-range speaker and its very unimpressive. Marshall has a mid bump. So with the greenbacks it overdrives and sounds grumpy. This may be enhanced by playing dynamics, where you get random-ish distortion with harder picking. Same AC30 sounds anaemic at anything but flat-out where it over-saturated speakers. Ditto for Marshalls.
HiFi speakers are designed for high headroom, before the get into a non-linear region. You really need to push then hard to get there. It was harder with tube hifi amps as they used transformers and that interaction contributed the a smaller linear region. With guitars, players like that distortion and the speakers are purposely left unrefined. We play them at the edge of blowing up, cause we like that distortion.
When you drive a SS or digital amp into a speaker you get closer to hifi situation. Its like playing some sort of recording into a clean speaker to preserve it. That's why the dynamics are different and you don't get the tonal variations you get with speaker/PA interaction.
Speakers like any other device behave unpredictably when pushed to the limit. And guitarists like it. They say the sound is more alive. Push a small amp into a 100W speaker - no distortion, boring sound. Its because you are not in that unpredictable region of operation. Turn a hot amp down and you get the CLEAN tone- same thing you are working in the predictable range of the speaker. Its the truth which has been known since day one and is still true. I cannot overdrive my studio monitors with any guitar preamp recording and therefore 90% of the time afterwards guys want to record an amp, with all the nuances. And the monitors just reproduce the non-linearity the mic picks up from the speaker.
There are millions of papers written on this and speaker design. Any "tests" run here, by un-initiated would only open a discussion of twisting the truth. But fair enough, I presume people in quarantine have nothing better to do then try to disprove the obvious.
Ill just go and get a load of popcorn - may be entertaining after a long day of work
Old 11th May 2020
  #5
Lives for gear
 
grannis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tINY View Post
I'm starting a new one that will hopefully be more technical and reasoned. I hate posting useful information in a thread that gets buried by Trollery.

For a lot of guitar sounds in recordings (or live on stage) the non-linearities of a guitar speaker are essential to the final sound. And, because impulse response modeling is a linear process, it can't capture the dynamics of an actual guitar speaker. In fact, everything about most electric guitar timbre is dependent on non-linear, low-fidelity phenomena.
an admirable aim that appears to be going sideways already. Maybe it's worth elaborating scientifically on what you mean by non-linear?

In strict mathematical terms, no, IRs are not linear - but then not much is - only straight lines!

I'm pretty sure you don't mean that, but I'm not sure exactly what you do mean.

btw, computerised models (and I don't mean IRs specifically, which are relatively simple beasts in the modelling world) have no problem with non-linear modelling per-se, so again, if you can define what you mean better, we may get somewhere.

fwiw, whilst I do use a Helix and IRs, I always supplement it with a tube preamp which adds some - er non-linearity(*) that disguises the digital nature of the distortion.

What I mean by that, is that I hear digital distortion as too uniform - it's like it's been quantized at a very short tempo. The tube breaks up the pattern enough to my ears to sound a whole heap better.

Clearly I am not talking about speakers, so my analogy is not perfect to what you are trying to discuss, but I thought it might illustrate my point about needing to be more precise with the term non-linear.
Old 11th May 2020
  #6
Lives for gear
 
Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by grannis View Post
an admirable aim that appears to be going sideways already. Maybe it's worth elaborating scientifically on what you mean by non-linear?

In strict mathematical terms, no, IRs are not linear - but then not much is - only straight lines!

I'm pretty sure you don't mean that, but I'm not sure exactly what you do mean.

btw, computerised models (and I don't mean IRs specifically, which are relatively simple beasts in the modelling world) have no problem with non-linear modelling per-se, so again, if you can define what you mean better, we may get somewhere.

fwiw, whilst I do use a Helix and IRs, I always supplement it with a tube preamp which adds some - er non-linearity(*) that disguises the digital nature of the distortion.

What I mean by that, is that I hear digital distortion as too uniform - it's like it's been quantized at a very short tempo. The tube breaks up the pattern enough to my ears to sound a whole heap better.

Clearly I am not talking about speakers, so my analogy is not perfect to what you are trying to discuss, but I thought it might illustrate my point about needing to be more precise with the term non-linear.
The speaker will recreate the pre-amp gain reasonably uniformly - it does not present much of a load. The interaction and dynamics between the PA, transformer and speaker will be non-linear - it does not increase or decrease in a linear fashion, but compresses, produces its own overtones and affects dynamic response. Therein is the non-linearity
Old 11th May 2020
  #7
Cab IR's are disappointing because of the limits of convolution which cannot deliver harmonic bloom i.e. resonance, nor background noise. In a normal cab and room if you played a pure sine wave you wouldn't actually get to hear a pure sine wave, instead the materials and designs involved mean you get something approximating the pure sine wave, it's close but not perfect, there's always a little distortion added by each component, to make matters worse that slightly imperfect sound is then bouncing around a space full of objects that themselves resonate at all sorts of different frequencies giving you pure harmonic content, of course comb filtering that changes as you move. There's a lot going on that means what you actually end up with is something with harmonic over and undertones. Convolution meanwhile would just give you that sine wave, at phase, attenuated over time based on the magnitude of the frequency in the impulse response file. It's why it always sounds so overly smooth and digital.

If you use something like Nebula it'll do a better job but it uses a hell of a lot more processing power, and to be honest I've never been super impressed by its results either, they also have that samey fizz quality to them.

For me I prefer digital cabs that have a combo of convolution and a little modeling going on. They're not perfect but they're a step up from straight convolution cabs.
Old 11th May 2020
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by grannis View Post
an admirable aim that appears to be going sideways already. Maybe it's worth elaborating scientifically on what you mean by non-linear?

In strict mathematical terms, no, IRs are not linear - but then not much is - only straight lines!

I'm pretty sure you don't mean that, but I'm not sure exactly what you do mean.

btw, computerised models (and I don't mean IRs specifically, which are relatively simple beasts in the modelling world) have no problem with non-linear modelling per-se, so again, if you can define what you mean better, we may get somewhere.

fwiw, whilst I do use a Helix and IRs, I always supplement it with a tube preamp which adds some - er non-linearity(*) that disguises the digital nature of the distortion.

What I mean by that, is that I hear digital distortion as too uniform - it's like it's been quantized at a very short tempo. The tube breaks up the pattern enough to my ears to sound a whole heap better.

Clearly I am not talking about speakers, so my analogy is not perfect to what you are trying to discuss, but I thought it might illustrate my point about needing to be more precise with the term non-linear.

The biggest issue in my mind is the IMD. When you have a non-linear system and apply more than a single sine tone, the output of the system (or speaker in this case) contains the sum and difference of the tones applied. The only standard test that I'm aware of is a two-tone IMD test. Since the different tones in a guitar signal are usually harmonically related, adding in Harmonic Distortion is usually a good substitute. It fools a lot of people and is probably good enough for most pop recordings.

Where there will be differences is when you start playing 3rds. Because of our modern even-tempered tuning, the harmonics of the 3rds are off by quite a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT4oOYj4SwQ

When you have significant IMD, the harmonic series you get from a root-3rd chord is different than simple harmonic distortion. There are problems with all of the intervals, but the major 3rd is the most pronounced.



-tINY

Old 11th May 2020
  #9
Lives for gear
So what?

Can it be captured by a mic?
Old 12th May 2020
  #10
Lives for gear
I think it comes down to what will your guitar track(s) ultimately be used for? If it's solo guitar unaccompanied, that may be an issue. If the guitars are in a mix with other instruments and a good reverb is added along with EQ, dynamics and effects, do you notice? When I hear Pete Thorn's demos, either into his iso Cab or into IRs, it's always in a mix, and to me it sounds good.

Michael Carnes, who developed a lot of the Lexicon Reverbs we all love and then went on to found Exponential Audio, talks about how convolving reverbs that use IR's don't always work as well as mathematical models - because with math models you can add in variability for nonlinearity.

I think it would be interesting to compare today's IR's to different speaker emulators used in the 90s and 2000's when session players were all using rack gear - the Palmer, etc. and see if we're better today than those circuit based products. I personally used an ADA MicroCab II with either an ADA MP1 or a Mesa V-Twin Rack.
Old 12th May 2020
  #11
Lives for gear
 
Mikhael's Avatar
 

Hmm. I've been using an old ADA MicroCab for speaker emulation, when going direct into the PA. After discovering the "magic" setting, I simply worked with the controls on it and my preamp, until I got a pleasing tone. Note that I didn't try to emulate any particular cabinet! I just played with it until I got a tone pleasing to me.

I think that's part of the issue with cabinet emulation in general. We try to get it to sound JUST LIKE our favourite cab. I don't do that; rather, I just twiddle until it sounds pleasing - a tone I can work with - and then I get on with the business of playing. It works for me. No it doesn't sound just like my Celestion cabinet. So what? I've got it sounding decent on it's own, and can use it. I guess I try to focus on what it CAN do, not what it CAN'T.

You ever try to get a Fender Twin to sound just like a Marshall? Won't happen. So you get the Twin sounding good as it can, and just use that. Same thing with an emulator, for me.
Old 13th May 2020
  #12
Lives for gear
 
Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tINY View Post


It depends how you define "natural overtones". The IR will be lacking the inter-modulation harmonics. Those are natural to a guitar speaker, but would not arise from an acoustic instrument if there aren't non-linear elements in play. The saddle on a hollow-body guitar may be non-linear, but I haven't researched that.





Sure, music is about sounds. If you like the sound of your IRs, use them. I haven't found any that I like much, though some are usable for certain projects. Maybe I hear some of those details a little better - I wish I didn't.

In any case, devoting the time to learn how to capture an IR is not an appealing project to me right now - I have other recording projects. If it matters that much to you, commission a study. I'll find time to learn the software if you are paying enough.

As to how much of a difference it makes - it depends. Modern digital simulations are good enough for a lot of people. Some people might even prefer them because they are a little cleaner and have most of the sonic character.



-tINY


Why are you even bothering?
Old 13th May 2020
  #13
Lives for gear
 
grannis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Why are you even bothering?
I'm finding most of this thread useful and informative. So it's just for me
Old 13th May 2020
  #14
Lives for gear
 
Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by grannis View Post
I'm finding most of this thread useful and informative. So it's just for me
Well, just for you, anything
Old 13th May 2020
  #15
Lives for gear
The technology is already there.

Focusrite had the Liquid Channel 15 years ago.

That was an IR based mic preamp that used level dependent IRs.
Dynamic convolution.

Why that is not used more often... Who knows.
Maybe it still needs too much processing power to be cheap for pedals or maybe because its not really necessary as guitar cabs are fairly linear regarding level.
Old 13th May 2020
  #16
Lives for gear
Some thoughts:

- Running a frequency sweep through a guitar speaker and recording the result with your Cab Mic Of Choice will give you a first-order approximation of how that speaker behaves. You'll have frequency and phase responses, which can be Fourier'd into an impulse response if you so wish. That's probably how they go about producing those files.

- The above does not tell you all the information about how a speaker behaves. It gets the broad strokes: the level and phase relationships between the outgoing notes, once you put a signal in.

- The additional information that's missing is stuff like harmonic distortion, and producing frequency curves at different volume levels. For instance, if you hit a guitar speaker with a low palm-muted chug, the speaker will visibly jump if the amp is cranked. Since they tend to have a very small mechanically-linear region, large cone excursions will produce something akin to soft-clipping. Running a sweep at a low-ish (linear) level won't ever capture those details!

- There are further confounding variables, too: when a microphone is subject to high SPLs, it too will probably add some distortion. There's also the matter of mic positioning - who is to say that the harmonic distortion components of a driven speaker will have the same dispersion pattern as the cone itself?

I suspect it's possible to put such things into code, and we could have a very good software representation of a guitar speaker. Measuring all the things in the first place would be a loud and time-consuming task, though, which is probably why nobody has really bothered.

Chris
Old 13th May 2020
  #17
Lives for gear
Yes, any speaker will have to move air It appears you've missed my point, though.

The 12" woofer in a good PA speaker might have a linear range of 5mm each way from rest, where what goes in is pretty much what comes out.
A guitar speaker typically uses a short coil with minimal overhang, so the linear excursion available might only be 1mm.

If we hit each speaker with a "chug", the guitar speaker will mechanically soft-clip that, while the PA speaker will move considerably further because it has a larger linear region.


There are similar things happening in other areas, too. A high-quality PA speaker will feature demodulating rings, which help to keep the permanent magnetic field nice and linear, directly lowering midband distortion.
I haven't heard of a guitar speaker which employs such a device, so now you've got to simulate flux modulation, too. How much there is will depend on a lot of factors.

The suspension/surround of a good PA speaker will also be much more linear than that of a guitar speaker, which might have lots of non-linearity engineered in! For instance, it'd be trivially easy to make a driver where the suspension shows lower compliance in the "out" direction vs "in". In that case, your driver will show higher 2nd order harmonic distortion, and that's a simple case! Suspension linearity is typically a curve (rather than the linear example I gave), and guitarists typically like to operate right at the edge of that curve.

These will all show up in harmonic distortion graphs, but the difficult part is this: music is dynamic.

As you hit a note, there'll be the initial transient which the speaker will soft-clip (we're assuming fairly high power levels here), and then the note itself, which the driver will add it's own harmonic distortion signature to.
As the note decays, the power levels begin to recede and the harmonic distortion contribution from the speaker will also reduce.

So, we must continually adjust the distortion of the speaker according to the instantaneous signal level, and that becomes a very difficult piece of software to produce!

Chris
Old 13th May 2020
  #18
Gear Addict
 

From the SOS article:

Quote:
"The effect of signal level is not huge,” says Ian White, "and certainly not as big as it is on the amplifier. These cone break-up mechanisms happen at a few microvolts input. You don't need to drive 20 Volts into the thing to make them happen. There are some level-related effects that come into play, but they're not the ones we've been talking about up to now. As the level goes up, the voice coil does heat up naturally. That will cause some compression and it could cause some other things to change slightly as well, so the sound will change a little bit as the speaker is driven harder. But the sound character of the speaker is just as much there at low levels as it is at high levels.”

According to Ian, the effects of driving the speaker close to its limits are mostly undesirable.
The way I interpret this is that there's no significant distortion happening in the speaker itself in normal use.
Old 13th May 2020
  #19
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdtrbn View Post
The way I interpret this is that there's no significant distortion happening in the speaker itself in normal use.
Your interpretation is correct, but I'd suggest the author should investigate things further.

I have measurements here of a high-quality 10" coaxial PA driver hitting over 10% THD, due to extreme drive levels (100V peak sine tones). At more sensible levels, the distortion is at about 1%, and at low levels, it stayed below 0.5%.
In all cases, the amplifier in use was well away from clipping, so this really is contribution from just the driver.

Again, PA drivers are designed to be linear (suspension, motor, etc) while guitar speakers are designed to have "tone" and are usually rather non-linear as a result. I wouldn't be surprised if a cranked guitar cab was running at over 10% THD.

... and yes, I'd expect that to be audible.

Chris

Edit: I have a 1x12" cab here, loaded with an Eminence Man O' War, 16ohm. Happy to run it up with a few kilowatts of Powersoft to see what's what.
Old 13th May 2020
  #20
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris661 View Post
I was a little surprised at Ian White's comments, so I dug out the article:


Looks familiar.

Chris
But that's all captured by the IR.
Old 13th May 2020
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Why are you even bothering?

Because these message boards end up in searches when people are looking for information. I've learned a lot myself form various threads in message boards.

My hope is that people can, at least, understand enough to find more complete information or figure out how to try something and what to listen/look for. In that light, some trolls are helpful when they are actually bringing up other ways of thinking or pretending not to understand - it make my replies more useful to someone who doesn't understand or is not familiar with counterpoints.

Sometimes, guitarists are a special blend of pugnacious, ignorant, and self-absorbed, though.....



-tINY

Old 13th May 2020
  #22
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by tINY View Post

Sometimes, guitarists are a special blend of (...) and self-absorbed, though.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by tINY View Post

- it make my replies more useful to someone who doesn't understand
I really do love message boards sometimes.
Old 14th May 2020
  #23
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenderboy View Post
The technology is already there.

Focusrite had the Liquid Channel 15 years ago.

That was an IR based mic preamp that used level dependent IRs.
Dynamic convolution.

Why that is not used more often... Who knows.
Maybe it still needs too much processing power to be cheap for pedals or maybe because its not really necessary as guitar cabs are fairly linear regarding level.
I remember the liquid channel!
I didn’t have one but I almost got one a few times. Some people loved it, some really didn’t like it.

I think that tech is kind of what Acustica is doing with plugins. Dynamic modeling or whatever their term for it is. Which takes plenty of processing power but some folks rave about it.

I don’t know nothing here but, I tend to think that IR’s as we know them used for guitar today are probably the way they are as a way to keep cost and size down and keep troubleshooting/complexity to a minimum.

IR’s generally sound pretty good.
But I pretty much always feel it when I switch from a modeler to a tube amp.

There’s a difference in the immediacy vs just a tad of latency. And the compression in a real amp is generally feels more friendly.
Old 14th May 2020
  #24
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnevz View Post
But I pretty much always feel it when I switch from a modeler to a tube amp.

There’s a difference in the immediacy vs just a tad of latency. And the compression in a real amp is generally feels more friendly.
May I ask if you compare the modeler vs. tube amp with the modeler over your studio monitors and the tube amp in another room with a mic in front and you listen over your monitors or do you listen to the amp in the room vs. the modeler on your monitors?
Old 14th May 2020
  #25
Lives for gear
Regarding intermodulation distortion and such.
Here is a small study that shows some ways to capture those in an IR.
Old 14th May 2020
  #26
Lives for gear
 
Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tINY View Post

Because these message boards end up in searches when people are looking for information. I've learned a lot myself form various threads in message boards.

My hope is that people can, at least, understand enough to find more complete information or figure out how to try something and what to listen/look for. In that light, some trolls are helpful when they are actually bringing up other ways of thinking or pretending not to understand - it make my replies more useful to someone who doesn't understand or is not familiar with counterpoints.

Sometimes, guitarists are a special blend of pugnacious, ignorant, and self-absorbed, though.....
The best i get here, people promoting commercial " innovation" , still in its infancy as a new god-send. Its a joke


-tINY

well the soap-box experts do not do it for those reasons. Its a personal satisfaction of "being heard" (cant do it in real life so there is this virtual) even if it does mean disinformation. And THAT is what gets into the heads of youngsters, who luck tech knowledge or experience. Once they get burned financially as a result, they then blame the forum, which brings the whole idea of what this is into question.
I gave up a while ago, simply because I dont care any more. For me its not a power play, but a place to relax and share the experience. I have several businesses, so the last thing I care about is a yelling match with someone who has no knowledge or experience, yet doesn't want to learn either. Thats why I dont comment much here any more. But I did become a member of another 4 forums, much more professional environment, so I am giving it a go. Will see. People seem knowledgeable and the conversations respectful. Stuff to learn, not much agro...
Old 14th May 2020
  #27
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenderboy View Post
May I ask if you compare the modeler vs. tube amp with the modeler over your studio monitors and the tube amp in another room with a mic in front and you listen over your monitors or do you listen to the amp in the room vs. the modeler on your monitors?
Yeah I generally do listen to amp in the room.
Use the modeler to track most often because it’s quicker and instant recall etc.
But I also compared with modeler amp combo vs tube amp combo. Tube amp sounds pretty good. Modeler is decent for what it is.

As to cone cry, speaker moving.
That’s deinfitely a thing guys.

I mean the speaker cabinet changes your sound as much if not more than most amps for one.
The rattling of some of those old cabinets is part of the sound for two. The wattage of the speaker, the frequencies at which it vibrates the speaker cabinet.

That’s real life physics that gets recorded that modelers don’t reproduce, folks.
They both have their place.

And yes, I know if you’re sikoly close miking a cab you’re probbaly not going to get the cab rattling as much, etc.

It’s still a completely quantifiable thing.
It exists. Whether you hear it or it makes a difference to you or somebody else.
It exists. Blind tests can only do so much.
You guys should take this to FDA trial levels and do randomizes controlled tests.
Old 14th May 2020
  #28
Lives for gear
 
Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnevz View Post
Yeah I generally do listen to amp in the room.
Use the modeler to track most often because it’s quicker and instant recall etc.
But I also compared with modeler amp combo vs tube amp combo. Tube amp sounds pretty good. Modeler is decent for what it is.

As to cone cry, speaker moving.
That’s deinfitely a thing guys.

I mean the speaker cabinet changes your sound as much if not more than most amps for one.
The rattling of some of those old cabinets is part of the sound for two. The wattage of the speaker, the frequencies at which it vibrates the speaker cabinet.

That’s real life physics that gets recorded that modelers don’t reproduce, folks.
They both have their place.

And yes, I know if you’re sikoly close miking a cab you’re probbaly not going to get the cab rattling as much, etc.

It’s still a completely quantifiable thing.
It exists. Whether you hear it or it makes a difference to you or somebody else.
It exists. Blind tests can only do so much.
You guys should take this to FDA trial levels and do randomizes controlled tests.
You will be now challenged to "prove" what you are saying. When examples of the cone cry alone are all over the net and have been ther4e for over a decade.

https://www.seanet.com/~pauls/cone_cry.mp3
https://guitarspeakerguide.com/speaker-cone-cry/
https://www.google.com/search?q=soun...hrome&ie=UTF-8

Ditto for speaker compression, distortion...
<snip - bickering>

Last edited by psycho_monkey; 14th May 2020 at 03:02 AM..
Old 14th May 2020
  #29
It should be possible for grown adults to discuss this without bickering like kiddies...please try!
Old 14th May 2020
  #30
Lives for gear
 
Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
It should be possible for grown adults to discuss this without bickering like kiddies...please try!
Yes Boss.

Hang on , you can't tell me that!!! You haven't been to Melbourne yet
📝 Reply
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
🖨️ Show Printable Version
✉️ Email this Page
🔍 Search thread
♾️ Similar Threads
🎙️ View mentioned gear
Forum Jump
Forum Jump