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Active DI tough choice
Old 9th May 2020
  #31
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Grimm Day's Avatar
 

I got a dumb question...

Can I DI into the LA 610 mkii ? My chain would be:

Guitar > pedals > preamp > audio interface > 4 track tape deck

Is that safe for the preamp and the tape deck?

Asking because someone suggested that I use a DI box at the end of my pedal chain just before the LA 610.
Old 9th May 2020
  #32
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimm Day View Post
I got a dumb question...

Can I DI into the LA 610 mkii ? My chain would be:

Guitar > pedals > preamp > audio interface > 4 track tape deck

Is that safe for the preamp and the tape deck?

Asking because someone suggested that I use a DI box at the end of my pedal chain just before the LA 610.
Not as a di, no. No HiZ input. Only has a Mic input and a Line input
Old 9th May 2020
  #33
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Have you tried Carl's? He originally developed it as an upgrade for the Quad-Eight consoles. They're not the same lineage as the usual ones you see on the DIY boards.

Is 90 dB gain on a .775V source enough for you?
No, it's not unless it's at 10k hz meaning that the low frequency OLG is around 120 db. Only the Jensen 990 achieves an OLG of 90 db at 10k hz.

90 db of gain on a .775 volt source will clip very badly. 1 mv will be amplified well over 10,000 times and will also clip.
Old 9th May 2020
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Not as a di, no. No HiZ input. Only has a Mic input and a Line input
So the pedals can't go into the line input? This is real good to know, thanks. Gonna take some suggestions from DI boxes in this thread and demo em on YT. Thanks for the info, man.
Old 9th May 2020
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Not as a di, no. No HiZ input. Only has a Mic input and a Line input
I'll also need an active DI, instead of a passive one, for my chain to properly operate? Very new to this gear, go easy on the rookie! Haha
Old 10th May 2020
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimm Day View Post
I'll also need an active DI, instead of a passive one, for my chain to properly operate? Very new to this gear, go easy on the rookie! Haha
No, passive should be enough. But for your application you will have more fun with active. Also, saving for a better di will give you a tool which you will use a lot in recording in general, it will save you money in the long run. Do not go silly with the price, but dont go for cheap solutions either.
Old 10th May 2020
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
No, passive should be enough. But for your application you will have more fun with active. Also, saving for a better di will give you a tool which you will use a lot in recording in general, it will save you money in the long run. Do not go silly with the price, but dont go for cheap solutions either.
I just checked and the LA 610 mkii has a Hi-Z input!! So do you think this chain would work for DI'ing my electric guitar to my tape deck:

Guitar > pedals > LA 610 mkii > Scarlett 8i6 interface > 4 track TEAC

I ask because someone said I just have an active DI at the end of my signal chain? But the LA 61 mkii is a DI unit?

edit: thanks for the tip on the active vs passive btw!
Old 10th May 2020
  #38
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimm Day View Post
I just checked and the LA 610 mkii has a Hi-Z input!! So do you think this chain would work for DI'ing my electric guitar to my tape deck:

Guitar > pedals > LA 610 mkii > Scarlett 8i6 interface > 4 track TEAC

I ask because someone said I just have an active DI at the end of my signal chain? But the LA 61 mkii is a DI unit?

edit: thanks for the tip on the active vs passive btw!
I had a look and didn't see one. But I didn't look at the front of the unit, so probably missed it.
Yes, If it has a HiZ input it would be fine
Just noticed you are going to an analogue recorder? Why do you need the Scarlet interface?
Old 10th May 2020
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
I had a look and didn't see one. But I didn't look at the front of the unit, so probably missed it.
Yes, If it has a HiZ input it would be fine
Just noticed you are going to an analogue recorder? Why do you need the Scarlet interface?
I only need the Scarlett so I can convert the LA 610’s XLR to RCA cables! The Scarlett can do 1/4” to RCA output where as the LA 610 only has XLR output and I don’t want to use XLR to RCA cables as I’ve read some wonky things about them. So just using the Scarlett as a cable converter, bypassing the Scarlett’s preamp by going into the line in at the back, using XLR to 1/4” from the LA preamp.
Old 10th May 2020
  #40
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Is there a better way to do this? Without using XLR to RCA ?
Old 10th May 2020
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimm Day View Post
Is there a better way to do this? Without using XLR to RCA ?
Scarlet is an AD/DA converter. Not a cable format converter. A simple thing would be a jack to XLR converter or an XLR to ... converter. These are cheap and freely available. With Scarlet you will convert to digital, go through your software, then convert back to analogue to go to the 4-track. Not the best idea
Old 10th May 2020
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Scarlet is an AD/DA converter. Not a cable format converter. A simple thing would be a jack to XLR converter or an XLR to ... converter. These are cheap and freely available. With Scarlet you will convert to digital, go through your software, then convert back to analogue to go to the 4-track. Not the best idea
Thanks so much for letting me know. Do you have any XLR to converter brands off the top of your head that you like or hate? Or is there just sorta one brand for this dealio, haha.
Old 10th May 2020
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimm Day View Post
Thanks so much for letting me know. Do you have any XLR to converter brands off the top of your head that you like or hate? Or is there just sorta one brand for this dealio, haha.
I like Neutrik connectors, Switchcraft is not bad. But I have used some no-brands or Hosa also, with pretty much same results if you clean and maintain them regularly. I only had malfunctions 2-3 times in 30 years . One with a Switchcraft converter, 2-(3) with no-brands. But mainly because I neglected them :-).
Old 10th May 2020
  #44
Gear Nut
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
I like Neutrik connectors, Switchcraft is not bad. But I have used some no-brands or Hosa also, with pretty much same results if you clean and maintain them regularly. I only had malfunctions 2-3 times in 30 years . One with a Switchcraft converter, 2-(3) with no-brands. But mainly because I neglected them :-).

I’ll check out the Neutrik converters then!! You just saved my sound and me doing something real stupid. Haha. Thanks for helping a rookie out. Your decades of experience is my guidebook haha. Cheers man!!!
Old 10th May 2020
  #45
Gear Nut
 
Grimm Day's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Scarlet is an AD/DA converter. Not a cable format converter. A simple thing would be a jack to XLR converter or an XLR to ... converter. These are cheap and freely available. With Scarlet you will convert to digital, go through your software, then convert back to analogue to go to the 4-track. Not the best idea
Hey I just realized - I won't be routing the signal into a DAW, so will it still become a digital signal if I put a 1/4" input at line level and then output 1/4" to RCA into the tape deck, bypassing the computer completely. Does the Scarlett automatically turn everything digital or does it remain analog if I don't connect it to the laptop?
Old 10th May 2020
  #46
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Wiley Cyote just called and said you should try out the ACME DI !!! i have the ZOD but am Curious about the ACME !!

https://reverb.com/p/acme-audio-wb-3-motown-di-2016
Old 10th May 2020
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
Wiley Cyote just called and said you should try out the ACME DI !!! i have the ZOD but am Curious about the ACME !!

https://reverb.com/p/acme-audio-wb-3-motown-di-2016
Now that is one cool looking piece of gear. Added to my list, too cool.
Old 10th May 2020
  #48
Lives for gear
The Warm Audio active DI looks very good as it has switchable active/passive modes and a pad. https://warmaudio.com/direct-boxes/

I know the pad on my GAP pre73 to drive the output transformer absolutely kills it for bass, all the subtle harmonics required to cut though the mix without resorting to plugins.
Old 11th May 2020
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
Wiley Cyote just called and said you should try out the ACME DI !!! i have the ZOD but am Curious about the ACME !!

https://reverb.com/p/acme-audio-wb-3-motown-di-2016
Tried the ACME - its like an inferior Radial passive at 3x the price.
ZOD is quite good. Like it more then the Reddi, which i believe its a variation off.
Old 11th May 2020
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Tried the ACME - its like an inferior Radial passive at 3x the price.
ZOD is quite good. Like it more then the Reddi, which i believe its a variation off.
wow .. good to know .. yeah, i love the ZOD ...
Old 11th May 2020
  #51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scragend View Post
I know the pad on my GAP pre73 to drive the output transformer absolutely kills it for bass, all the subtle harmonics required to cut though the mix without resorting to plugins.
My GAP 73 had poor low end with electric bass. That was fixed by replacing the output transformer with the Jensen JT-123-BMCF. The original looks like the coil gaps are spaced too far apart compared to other transformer designs.
Old 11th May 2020
  #52
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
My GAP 73 had poor low end with electric bass. That was fixed by replacing the output transformer with the Jensen JT-123-BMCF. The original looks like the coil gaps are spaced too far apart compared to other transformer designs.
The build and component quality of GAP stuff does seem to be very hit and miss. I must have got lucky with mine, a friend's one doesn't sound half as good - but to be fair it's not exactly the same model. They do seem to change from build to build let alone model to model. To put it into perspective how much I like my Pre73 for bass - I use it over my £1100 per-channel Thermionic Culture Rooster 2 (gearslutz sacrilege surely?) - love that box - but the GAP is still my "go-to" bass DI! Okay, okay – I’ll hand in my badge...
Old 11th May 2020
  #53
Lives for gear
PS for (my) fretless my go-to chain is totally different - Bass (active 90's Bass Collection) > EH Battalion (just comp) > Hayden Mini MoFo > Koch Dummybox > Interface.
Old 16th May 2020
  #54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimm Day View Post
So the pedals can't go into the line input? This is real good to know, thanks. Gonna take some suggestions from DI boxes in this thread and demo em on YT. Thanks for the info, man.
Well, the pedals probably CAN go into the line input - it won't hurt anything - but your level will likely be quite low and your tone will probably pretty much suck, because the line is a high level, medium impedance input and the pedal output will almost certainly be low level and intended to drive a very high impedance input so the lower impedance of the line input will load it down a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimm Day View Post
I'll also need an active DI, instead of a passive one, for my chain to properly operate? Very new to this gear, go easy on the rookie! Haha
No, passive DIs are fine, but don't get a cheap one. Cheap ones use substandard transformers (which is why they can be cheap), which have generally poor frequency response (especially in the low end) and substandard tone.The Radial JDI is a good choice.

Last edited by John Eppstein; 16th May 2020 at 02:23 AM..
Old 16th May 2020
  #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
No, it's not unless it's at 10k hz meaning that the low frequency OLG is around 120 db. Only the Jensen 990 achieves an OLG of 90 db at 10k hz.

90 db of gain on a .775 volt source will clip very badly. 1 mv will be amplified well over 10,000 times and will also clip.
I don't think I follow you. Why would 90 dB of gain on a .775V source clip badly? Available gain should be a function of PS voltage. The PS of the KGB runs at +/- 24 VDC. Is that not adequate?

The test spec given on the A-Designs site is 2kHz, btw.

https://www.adesignsaudio.com/kgb-2-kgb1ft-line-preamps
Old 16th May 2020
  #56
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Grimm Day's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Well, the pedals probably CAN go into the line input - it won't hurt anything - but your level will likely be quite low and your tone will probably pretty much suck, because the line is a high level, medium impedance input and the pedal output will almost certainly be low level and intended to drive a very high impedance input so the lower impedance of the line input will load it down a lot.



No, passive DIs are fine, but don't get a cheap one. Cheap ones use substandard transformers (which is why they can be cheap), which have generally poor frequency response (especially in the low end) and substandard tone.The Radial JDI is a good choice.
Thanks so much for the info. I'm going to run the pedals into the Hi-Z input on the 610, and then from the 610 into a Henry Engineering Matchbox, which serves as a passive DI and converts the +4db to -10db for the tape deck. Cheers!
Old 18th May 2020
  #57
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
I don't think I follow you. Why would 90 dB of gain on a .775V source clip badly? Available gain should be a function of PS voltage. The PS of the KGB runs at +/- 24 VDC. Is that not adequate?

The test spec given on the A-Designs site is 2kHz, btw.

https://www.adesignsaudio.com/kgb-2-kgb1ft-line-preamps
80 db is a gain of 10,000. If that gain was applied to a .775 volt waveform the resulting output would be 7750 volts. It will take quite a bit of power supply voltage to avoid clipping that one.

Open loop gain (maximum available gain) and used gain are quite different things.
Old 20th May 2020
  #58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
80 db is a gain of 10,000. If that gain was applied to a .775 volt waveform the resulting output would be 7750 volts. It will take quite a bit of power supply voltage to avoid clipping that one.

Open loop gain (maximum available gain) and used gain are quite different things.
Well, I have a KGB-2, the 2 channel, no EQ version. I've used it both as a DI and as a line level makeup gain preamp for my two Altec/Langevin passive EQs on the 2 buss. It has never clipped on anything I've used it for. It's more than capable of driving a channel (or two) of my Studer A-800 as hard as any sane person would want. Somehow I doubt that it would have clipping problems with any digital audio interface. It will easily drive any power amp I have.

So, alphabet soup aside, this thing has no lack of headroom on a practical basis.
Old 21st May 2020
  #59
Try it at +80 db of gain, it will clip.
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