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"Re-amping" to capture back-of-cab with a SM57
Old 25th April 2020
  #1
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"Re-amping" to capture back-of-cab with a SM57

Hi everyone,

I hope I'm posting this in the right place

I want to capture both the front and back of my open-back amp for recording purposes but I only have one SM57 and one good mic preamp/compressor.

Could I simply record: 1. DI'ed guitar, 2. 57 of the front of the guitar (+ mic pre and comp)

Then

Send the DI'ed signal re-amped into the guitar amp and re-record the back of the cab (with the 57)??

Would this cause any phase issues?

Thank you in advance!
Old 25th April 2020
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanktron View Post
Hi everyone,

I hope I'm posting this in the right place

I want to capture both the front and back of my open-back amp for recording purposes but I only have one SM57 and one good mic preamp/compressor.

Could I simply record: 1. DI'ed guitar, 2. 57 of the front of the guitar (+ mic pre and comp)

Then

Send the DI'ed signal re-amped into the guitar amp and re-record the back of the cab (with the 57)??

Would this cause any phase issues?

Thank you in advance!
You could. Inherently, whether recording multiple mics at once or in your proposed scenario, a second mic can cause phase issues. Especially a back of cab mic, for obvious reasons...

That said, especially in the context of a back of cab mic, I don't know how important it is to have a "good" mic preamp or an SM57 specifically to capture that sound..if you have enough inputs and another mic lying around I would just use that. Back of cab is something I've done on occasion but not something I really rely on or really think is generally worth the effort, of course YMMV.
Old 25th April 2020
  #3
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Hi kslight,

Of course - I would flip the phase on the back-of-cab mic. I guess I was wondering if using different mic preamps and/or mics would affect the phase (even with the back one flipped?

I appreciate your input though - I guess I should just rigged up a couple mics / different preamps and try
Old 26th April 2020
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanktron View Post
Hi kslight,

Of course - I would flip the phase on the back-of-cab mic. I guess I was wondering if using different mic preamps and/or mics would affect the phase (even with the back one flipped?

I appreciate your input though - I guess I should just rigged up a couple mics / different preamps and try
Well it’s unlikely that 180 degrees will be the exact difference either, if that makes sense. But that’s what computers are good for, lining things up precisely if required. When multi miking on a guitar amp it’s very common (preferable even) to use different mics. So i say give it a try with what you’ve got. I don’t think a different mic preamp should make an appreciable difference in context of phase.
Old 26th April 2020
  #5
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grannis's Avatar
so this is total heresy, but in lockdown, necessity is the mother of invention... I have been experimenting with an iphone as a room mic in combination with a cheap vocal mic up close.

Both are total crap on their own, but together they work. The iphone is very tinny and compressed, the vocal mic is the opposite. Blend them in the right quantities and I was astounded.

I had to shift the phone recording forward by about 15 milliseconds to find the sweetspot (more to do with latency than sound through air, I think), but after doing so there was remarkably little phase-cancellation going on.

I don't know exactly what you are looking for with your second mic, but I presume you are trying to round out something that is lacking from a single mic? I find reamping a total PITA, so it might be worth experimenting with alternatives first.
Old 27th April 2020
  #6
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Necessity IS the mother of invention! This is a good point of moving the audio files to align phase - in truth I've never done this but am assuming in Logic I should be able to see the beginning/end of the wave without too much issue.

Yes - hoping to experiment with micing the back-of-cab to add a bit of thickness that can be blent in at a lower volume. Would be using a 57 on the front and then either a U87ai, at 4050, or Rode NT1a on the back (will need to see which one sounds better for this purpose).

I agree that this whole re-amping thing sounds like a headache

Thanks!
Old 27th April 2020
  #7
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Wait a minute - you started the thread saying you only have one SM57 and one good mic pre, but you also have 3 really great condenser mics? I don't get it. What interface are you using and how many inputs? Guessing if you have a U87ai you're not recording with a Focusrite Solo... if you have 2 inputs, mic in the front grill, one in the back. 3 inputs? Same as 2 but add a room mic. Yes you could reamp but with the mic options you own...

Understand you're new here, but it's always more helpful if you give a full description of the gear you have and your issue for others to offer the best advice.
Old 27th April 2020
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanktron View Post
Hi everyone,

I hope I'm posting this in the right place

I want to capture both the front and back of my open-back amp for recording purposes but I only have one SM57 and one good mic preamp/compressor.

Could I simply record: 1. DI'ed guitar, 2. 57 of the front of the guitar (+ mic pre and comp)

Then

Send the DI'ed signal re-amped into the guitar amp and re-record the back of the cab (with the 57)??

Would this cause any phase issues?

Thank you in advance!
Overcomplicated. Record the back at the same time with your 4050. If you only have one mic preamp, remedy that situation. At least get a MOTU 4x4. Make music, not complications.
Old 27th April 2020
  #9
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Hi everyone,

Sorry if I wasn't giving enough info (and not explaining correctly): Apogee Duet (2 ins), BAE1073MPF (single channel), SM57, U87ai, AT4050, and the NT1a, using Logic.

When I said "one SM57" I meant only one of that mic (couldn't mic using two 57's one front/one back). I was wondering if I would get phase issues if the chains weren't identical (this is why I was considering re-amping using the same chain).

But it seems like from the responses that this wouldn't be an issue (i.e., I can use two different mics/chains).

Thanks again
Old 27th April 2020
  #10
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Try the NT1A at the back if the 4050 is too dark - and the 57 into the '73 at the front -

music by numbers
Old 28th April 2020
  #11
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grannis's Avatar
With all those mics you don’t need to use a phone! Can you spare me one??
Old 29th April 2020
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanktron View Post
Hi everyone,

Sorry if I wasn't giving enough info (and not explaining correctly): Apogee Duet (2 ins), BAE1073MPF (single channel), SM57, U87ai, AT4050, and the NT1a, using Logic.

When I said "one SM57" I meant only one of that mic (couldn't mic using two 57's one front/one back). I was wondering if I would get phase issues if the chains weren't identical (this is why I was considering re-amping using the same chain).

But it seems like from the responses that this wouldn't be an issue (i.e., I can use two different mics/chains).

Thanks again
Yeah, chains have nothing to do with phase alignment.
Old 5th May 2020
  #13
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Hi everyone - thanks for all the answers and suggestions! I really appreciate it
Old 5th May 2020
  #14
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanktron View Post
Hi everyone,

Sorry if I wasn't giving enough info (and not explaining correctly): Apogee Duet (2 ins), BAE1073MPF (single channel), SM57, U87ai, AT4050, and the NT1a, using Logic.

When I said "one SM57" I meant only one of that mic (couldn't mic using two 57's one front/one back). I was wondering if I would get phase issues if the chains weren't identical (this is why I was considering re-amping using the same chain).

But it seems like from the responses that this wouldn't be an issue (i.e., I can use two different mics/chains).

Thanks again
Is your cab open back or closed back?
Old 5th May 2020
  #15
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanktron View Post
Hi everyone,

Sorry if I wasn't giving enough info (and not explaining correctly): Apogee Duet (2 ins), BAE1073MPF (single channel), SM57, U87ai, AT4050, and the NT1a, using Logic.

When I said "one SM57" I meant only one of that mic (couldn't mic using two 57's one front/one back). I was wondering if I would get phase issues if the chains weren't identical (this is why I was considering re-amping using the same chain).

But it seems like from the responses that this wouldn't be an issue (i.e., I can use two different mics/chains).

Thanks again
How close is your back mic to the cab? Also, always preferred dynamic there, condensers get too much of the environment
Old 6th May 2020
  #16
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Hi Yuri,

It's an open-back 1x12 and I would say the mic is around 6-8 inches. Maybe I could try the 57 on the back and U87ai on the front?
Thanks
Old 7th May 2020
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
Yeah, chains have nothing to do with phase alignment.
Unless, of course, something in your chain flips the polarity of the signal. It's not very common, but it does happen.
Old 7th May 2020
  #18
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanktron View Post
Hi Yuri,

It's an open-back 1x12 and I would say the mic is around 6-8 inches. Maybe I could try the 57 on the back and U87ai on the front?
Thanks
I would try a 57 and the u87 on the front. Both on the same speaker and watch your phase and capsule incidence angle. You can get many good tones like that. Phase can be your friend too, cause you are blending, so cancellation can be a good or bad thing.. Do not pan the mics apart either. Are you keeping your speaker off the floor? If you have another speaker put this one on top of the other one. It will eliminate "infinite baffle" thing with a not very ideal floor. The back mic is talked about a lot but it is not what some people think it is. But if you have another dynamic, put it there same distance as the front mic facing the back of the cone, not the magnet. And flip the phase. Again, blend it with the other mics, dont pan it away. Then work the blend as an "eq". Also angle you u87 slightly (15deg) away from the grill, not too much, to reduce capsule distortion, its never pleasant. Saturate your pre instead. This would be a good starting point. You can also put your 57 on the grill (1" away) facing close to the dust cone and your 87 about a foot away, facing the same point. You might like that too. Then move then around small increment at a time and listen
Old 14th May 2020
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
I would try a 57 and the u87 on the front. Both on the same speaker and watch your phase and capsule incidence angle. You can get many good tones like that. Phase can be your friend too, cause you are blending, so cancellation can be a good or bad thing.. Do not pan the mics apart either. Are you keeping your speaker off the floor? If you have another speaker put this one on top of the other one. It will eliminate "infinite baffle" thing with a not very ideal floor. The back mic is talked about a lot but it is not what some people think it is. But if you have another dynamic, put it there same distance as the front mic facing the back of the cone, not the magnet. And flip the phase. Again, blend it with the other mics, dont pan it away. Then work the blend as an "eq". Also angle you u87 slightly (15deg) away from the grill, not too much, to reduce capsule distortion, its never pleasant. Saturate your pre instead. This would be a good starting point. You can also put your 57 on the grill (1" away) facing close to the dust cone and your 87 about a foot away, facing the same point. You might like that too. Then move then around small increment at a time and listen
Hi Yuri, thanks again for the great and detailed suggestions! The speaker (amp) is elevated using a wooden cabinet (just to make it easier to mic/adjust the settings). I tried this out (87 on the front + 57 on the back - phase reversed) and have had pretty good results so far! I'm blending in the back 57 a little bit to thicken the lower mids and seems to be working quite well. I can help but wonder what an additional 57 on the front vs. the 87 might sound like. I am considering picking up another 57 used and trying this out (these can usually be found for a very good price).

Due to the increased sensitivity of LDCs (i.e., U87) vs. dynamics would there be an advantage to using something like the Aston Halo to decrease room reflections when micing the front?

Thanks again
Old 15th May 2020
  #20
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanktron View Post
Hi Yuri, thanks again for the great and detailed suggestions! The speaker (amp) is elevated using a wooden cabinet (just to make it easier to mic/adjust the settings). I tried this out (87 on the front + 57 on the back - phase reversed) and have had pretty good results so far! I'm blending in the back 57 a little bit to thicken the lower mids and seems to be working quite well. I can help but wonder what an additional 57 on the front vs. the 87 might sound like. I am considering picking up another 57 used and trying this out (these can usually be found for a very good price).

Due to the increased sensitivity of LDCs (i.e., U87) vs. dynamics would there be an advantage to using something like the Aston Halo to decrease room reflections when micing the front?

Thanks again
You are on the right track there. Experimentation with different mics is important to find "your" tone. Doing that see that the mics complement each other, not repeat the same. Use a mic with a mid peak in a different place to the 57. Try Sennheiser e609 or a 906. Better try a Beyerdynamic m88 () or a 201. The idea is to blend tones
Also, try moving your u87 away from the dust-cap towards the edge in small increments. Move it halfway towards the rim from the dust-cap and angle the capsule back towards the dust-cap edge. Just by moving the mics you will get a variety of tones, without swapping mics
Old 20th May 2020
  #21
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Thanks again for the great suggestions Yuri! I am going to mess around with the 87 + 57 a bit more before I pickup anymore gear (been acquiring a bit much!) although the Beyerdynamic M88 sounds very tempting...
Old 21st May 2020
  #22
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanktron View Post
Thanks again for the great suggestions Yuri! I am going to mess around with the 87 + 57 a bit more before I pickup anymore gear (been acquiring a bit much!) although the Beyerdynamic M88 sounds very tempting...
M88 is a "desert island" mic. Works well on many things from vocals to guitar, bass, rock piano... It is sound pressure sensitive though.
Old 24th May 2020
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
M88 is a "desert island" mic. Works well on many things from vocals to guitar, bass, rock piano... It is sound pressure sensitive though.
Thanks Yuri! Just saw that the M88 is on sale at my local music store... Very tempting! Should probably put the $$ towards other upgrades though
Old 24th May 2020
  #24
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanktron View Post
Thanks Yuri! Just saw that the M88 is on sale at my local music store... Very tempting! Should probably put the $$ towards other upgrades though
Yes, priorities, priorities. We all have them . But already have a workable setup. When you really need the m88, you will know it. But maybe not yet.
Old 28th May 2020
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Yes, priorities, priorities. We all have them . But already have a workable setup. When you really need the m88, you will know it. But maybe not yet.
Hahaha I look forward to the day that I realize that I need the M88 Thanks again Yuri - all the best
Old 28th May 2020
  #26
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Find the buzz with the 57.

Put the U87 all the way across the room, in the middle of the floor 1 inch off the floor, play with it. Put headphones on with the mic's going and play around.

Record the dry track raw. Edit it to all hell. Then re-amp it many times and play with it. I bet you can get a cool track.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elegentdrum View Post
Find the buzz with the 57.

Put the U87 all the way across the room, in the middle of the floor 1 inch off the floor, play with it. Put headphones on with the mic's going and play around.

Record the dry track raw. Edit it to all hell. Then re-amp it many times and play with it. I bet you can get a cool track.
Hey - thanks for the reply. That's a cool idea as well! I will give it a try

Cheers
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