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Getting a Double Bass sound without DB ?
Old 1 week ago
  #31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liverpool View Post
Why not change that to "I personally can't get a remotely realistic double bass sound with a plugin"? That's a perfectly reasonable statement and impossible to disprove.
To extrapolate and say it's impossible for *anyone* to do it is not reasonsble at all and is based on the assumption that everyone has the same ability to work VSTis. I've used Trilian upright bass a lot in my compositions and it sounds ****ing boss. And no one's ever spotted it was played on a keyboard.

It's like when people say "Oh you can't play a rock solo on a Rickenbacker." What they mean is *they* can't do it. And yet it can be done:
https://youtu.be/AdSgFABwtiw

As a general rule it's preferable to say "I can't do X" than "X can't be done." Especially when it comes to music.
Not talking about music, talking about the dynamics of an instrument and how it affects playing choices. I don't care how great a keyboard player you are (and I've known some great ones), you can't duplicate some of the differences in how the instrument makes you play.

Doesn't necessarily mean you can't fool a lot of people.
Old 1 week ago
  #32
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Lard tastes just like butter (if you've never had butter).
Old 1 week ago
  #33
I went to Sweetwater's website and read up on Trillium a bit. The software boasts 8 different articulations.

Eight.

That might be enough. I'm sure there are more than a few cases where it wouldn't be, or shouldn't be. I'm a violinist, not a bass player. There's little doubt in my mind though that a good professional bass player is capable of more than 8 articulations. Including various blends and subtlties, many more.

I hope all this software stuff really nails it by the time the real thing is gone.
Old 1 week ago
  #34
Gear Nut
 

Roland SY1000 (or VB99 ) with an Hexaphonic pickup on a fretless bass can get pretty close
Old 1 week ago
  #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liverpool View Post
Lots of articulation (beyond what you can get from Trilian) is unnecessary for the vast majority of commercial tracks and will mean that, like any player who doesn't serve the song, a bass player who's fixated on showing off their "articulations" won't be getting a callback.
The vast majority of commercial tracks are mundane at best and are not the only measure.

That the only option to this software is a fixated bass player is a ridiculous straw man. Opting for the real thing doesn't necessarily mean one is enlisting the services of an overplaying fool. As a professional violinist with an a**load of articulations at his disposal I absolutely never made some silly, fixated display of them. Nor have I ever witnessed any good player on any instrument offering their services do so.

To the OP. Hey Patrick. You play the cello. How many articulations do you think you can manage. Could you do without 1/2 to 3/4 of them? You ever get the urge to, you know, go all kinda articulation crazy whether it serves the song or not?
Old 1 week ago
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GearFiddler View Post
...

To the OP. Hey Patrick. You play the cello. How many articulations do you think you can manage. Could you do without 1/2 to 3/4 of them? You ever get the urge to, you know, go all kinda articulation crazy whether it serves the song or not?
I read this and was thinking, when have I ever recorded or done a concert were I purely articulated with my fingers on the cello, answer is never. Even plucking I had my bow in my hand, and that's a very controlled specific technique. I've done a lot with the bow, you can bounce the tip like a finger where it sounds like a little ping/pluck, but that's always with the bow. So I guess I have never done any non-standard articulations with my fingers aside from purely messing around(and it's more about setting strings and checking the bridge, etc).
Old 1 week ago
  #37
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liverpool View Post
Pretty sure I could fool you as:

1. If you can't play the instrument anyway, you don't know how the "articulations" and "dynamics" are achieved. Can you play it? My money's on "No". In addition, what you appear to think are the most vital aspects are not typically even why writers/producers use that instrument in professional work. Most tracks that use double bass use it for the timbre and the sound. Lots of articulation (beyond what you can get from Trilian) is unnecessary for the vast majority of commercial tracks and will mean that, like any player who doesn't serve the song, a bass player who's fixated on showing off their "articulations" won't be getting a callback.

2. You clearly don't know anything about Trilian and wouldn't have the first idea about how to make it work. Have you ever tried it? I'd put money on "No". Have you mastered it? I'd put money on "**** no".

So please don't misinform with opinions based on no experience and no expertise. All that sort of thing does is possibly stop actual musicians from discovering and mastering excellent tools with which to make music.
Stop it.
If I remember correctly, when John did his music schooling, it was on a Double Bass. He still plays bass now. He will correct me if I am wrong.
Old 1 week ago
  #38
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickFaith View Post
I read this and was thinking, when have I ever recorded or done a concert were I purely articulated with my fingers on the cello, answer is never. Even plucking I had my bow in my hand, and that's a very controlled specific technique. I've done a lot with the bow, you can bounce the tip like a finger where it sounds like a little ping/pluck, but that's always with the bow. So I guess I have never done any non-standard articulations with my fingers aside from purely messing around(and it's more about setting strings and checking the bridge, etc).
OK. So there are many articulation possibilities with the bow, at least there are for me as a violinist. Not so many with pizzacato. Once in a while, as a classical musician a pizz. passage would come along that warranted my placing the bow down in my lap, but most of the time it's kept in hand, maybe with the thumb anchored to the fingerboard, maybe not. But it always depends on what works best and serves the music.

I take it though you've never just done as you please regardless of what the music seems to ask for, or what the conductor is showing, or what the composer indicated. You've never disregarded the indication for legato and played spiccato just because you wanted to show off your spiccato, and then your col legno, followed by your richochette - just to display a few of the articulations you have under your belt because you had a moment of fixation that took over and you just couldn't help yourself.

I have midi gear and samples here. Useful tools that I find quite valuable in my writing process. So, I'm not one to judge, and I don't mean to. Though I can say that my use of such was never intended to be for more than mock ups, and that whenever I gigged my music, prior to my neck being injured, it was with players (who learned the music from mock up cd's I gave them)...and I found that a much more satisfying musical experience.

There's a plus and a minus with just about everything. I really believe that. Software never tires, or argues, or shows up hungover, (or spreads germs). But it's not like it doesn't come with some compromises, I'm sure. If you can live with them, fine. Maybe said compromises are irrelevant for the music you are making. I'm a decent drum programmer myself, I think. But I wouldn't presume to think I can match what Steve Gadd, or many other good drummers could do. Good luck with your music.
Old 1 week ago
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GearFiddler View Post
OK. So there are many articulation possibilities with the bow, at least there are for me as a violinist. Not so many with pizzacato. Once in a while, as a classical musician a pizz. passage would come along that warranted my placing the bow down in my lap, but most of the time it's kept in hand, maybe with the thumb anchored to the fingerboard, maybe not. But it always depends on what works best and serves the music.

I take it though you've never just done as you please regardless of what the music seems to ask for, or what the conductor is showing, or what the composer indicated. You've never disregarded the indication for legato and played spiccato just because you wanted to show off your spiccato, and then your col legno, followed by your richochette - just to display a few of the articulations you have under your belt because you had a moment of fixation that took over and you just couldn't help yourself.

I have midi gear and samples here. Useful tools that I find quite valuable in my writing process. So, I'm not one to judge, and I don't mean to. Though I can say that my use of such was never intended to be for more than mock ups, and that whenever I gigged my music, prior to my neck being injured, it was with players (who learned the music from mock up cd's I gave them)...and I found that a much more satisfying musical experience.

There's a plus and a minus with just about everything. I really believe that. Software never tires, or argues, or shows up hungover, (or spreads germs). But it's not like it doesn't come with some compromises, I'm sure. If you can live with them, fine. Maybe said compromises are irrelevant for the music you are making. I'm a decent drum programmer myself, I think. But I wouldn't presume to think I can match what Steve Gadd, or many other good drummers could do. Good luck with your music.
I use to run through a roland vg-99 a decade back (?seems like longer?), but I went with pure acoustic/mics awhile ago. I noticed Suzanne Ciani also went through a pure acoustic phase, she's back to do electronic though, who knows maybe I will too. I btw have tried to run through a modular system on the electronic bass but couldn't find anything I really could like (I am in love with Jaco's "looping" solo's, so I do appriciate people go way out there, it's just not what I'm comfortable doing).
Old 1 week ago
  #40
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When the Mellotron hit the market, the prevailing belief was that it sounded "just like real instruments".

...Of course, those who had actually spent much time around "real instruments" knew better.

Despite this, string players freaked out about it (especially as the tech developed) and so they lobbied for union rules to address the "problem".

I'm not quite sure what this says exactly, but I still think it says something.
Old 6 days ago
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
When the Mellotron hit the market, the prevailing belief was that it sounded "just like real instruments".

...Of course, those who had actually spent much time around "real instruments" knew better.

Despite this, string players freaked out about it (especially as the tech developed) and so they lobbied for union rules to address the "problem".

I'm not quite sure what this says exactly, but I still think it says something.
Maybe it just says that they saw the train a'coming.

It's not uncommon to see a music director credited on the latest from Hollywood and nothing about an orchestra. At first blush most anybody (but not me) might think they're hearing an orchestra. But it's you know who and his gear.

I wonder how many musicians lost work directly or indirectly due to midi?

It's just a matter of time...
Old 6 days ago
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GearFiddler View Post
It's just a matter of time...
...Especially if you consider that (even without an audience in physical attendance), this performance would now probably be outlawed in most jurisdictions:
(Just too many damn people together.)
Old 6 days ago
  #43
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
If I remember correctly, when John did his music schooling, it was on a Double Bass. He still plays bass now. He will correct me if I am wrong.
Well if that's the case, my bad.
Old 6 days ago
  #44
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GeminIAm's Avatar
How about layering UB samples of the attack part with parts played on a fretless bass?
Old 5 days ago
  #45
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EvilRoy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeminIAm View Post
How about layering UB samples of the attack part with parts played on a fretless bass?
...and put a mic on the strings?
Old 5 days ago
  #46
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I know it sounds crazy, but...

Have you tried using the actual instrument you want to hear?
Old 3 days ago
  #47
Quote:
Originally Posted by GearFiddler View Post
I went to Sweetwater's website and read up on Trillium a bit. The software boasts 8 different articulations.

Eight.

That might be enough. I'm sure there are more than a few cases where it wouldn't be, or shouldn't be. I'm a violinist, not a bass player. There's little doubt in my mind though that a good professional bass player is capable of more than 8 articulations. Including various blends and subtlties, many more.

I hope all this software stuff really nails it by the time the real thing is gone.
EIGHT articulations? WHOOP-DE-DOO! That's like driving a big rig with one wheel!

I'd suggest that anybody who thinks that any VSTi can duplicate the sound of a bass viol should go listen to a couple of Charles Mingus solos. Then cry yourself to sleep.
Old 3 days ago
  #48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
If I remember correctly, when John did his music schooling, it was on a Double Bass. He still plays bass now. He will correct me if I am wrong.
Yes, bass was my major instrument in college, and in order to get credit for playing electric I was required to take viol. Being primarily an electric player I never got really good at it but I did get a firm enough grounding to instill a deep appreciation for what is involved. TBH i haven't played viol in over 40 years and couldn't now, I don't have the left hand strength anymore. Wish I could, it would be fun.

Bass is my second instrument, BTW, my main is rhythm guitar.

I'd be willing to bet that the VSTi doesn't even get into the dynamics of playing in thumb position. Can't see how it could with a whopping EIGHT articulations.
Old 3 days ago
  #49
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
When the Mellotron hit the market, the prevailing belief was that it sounded "just like real instruments".

...Of course, those who had actually spent much time around "real instruments" knew better.

Despite this, string players freaked out about it (especially as the tech developed) and so they lobbied for union rules to address the "problem".

I'm not quite sure what this says exactly, but I still think it says something.
Oh, but it sounds JUST LIKE a real...........(wait for it)................... Mellotron!
Old 3 days ago
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Oh, but it sounds JUST LIKE a real...........(wait for it)................... Mellotron!
I know a guy who sampled the "bass" from Seinfeld.
Old 3 days ago
  #51
Quote:
Originally Posted by GearFiddler View Post
OK. So there are many articulation possibilities with the bow, at least there are for me as a violinist. Not so many with pizzacato. Once in a while, as a classical musician a pizz. passage would come along that warranted my placing the bow down in my lap, but most of the time it's kept in hand, maybe with the thumb anchored to the fingerboard, maybe not. But it always depends on what works best and serves the music.
Pizzacato is capable of a lot more than you might think, but classical isn't necessarily where you'd find it. Listen to the great jazz bassists. I suggested a couple solos by the great Charles Mingus (and reaffirm that), but there are many, many great bassists in jazz and most of the play pizz most of the time.

The pizzacato bass viol is capable of as many and as varied articulations as the classical guitar, or close.
Old 3 days ago
  #52
Quote:
Originally Posted by GearFiddler View Post
Maybe it just says that they saw the train a'coming.

It's not uncommon to see a music director credited on the latest from Hollywood and nothing about an orchestra. At first blush most anybody (but not me) might think they're hearing an orchestra. But it's you know who and his gear.

I wonder how many musicians lost work directly or indirectly due to midi?

It's just a matter of time...
Yes, that's quite true and it's sad. it's a indicator of just how badly the art of music has devolved since the computer age.
(Are we not men? We are....)
Those synthesized soundtracks may sound great by themselves (and many of the guys doing them are really good at what they do), but compared to guys like Henry Mancini and Nelson Riddle? No comparison, taken on a strictly musical basis.

And you know something? I'd bet good money that most, if not all those guys doing the one-man orchestra with the synthesized scores would give their left nut to have the budget to hire a real orchestra and a proper scoring room.

Michael Phelps in a kiddie swimming pool is still Michael Phelps, but all he has to work with is a kiddie pool - how many records is he gonna set with that?
Old 3 days ago
  #53
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There are EIGHT articulations!!!
Attached Images
Getting a Double Bass sound without DB ?-eight.jpg 
Old 3 days ago
  #54
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
EIGHT articulations? WHOOP-DE-DOO! That's like driving a big rig with one wheel!

I'd suggest that anybody who thinks that any VSTi can duplicate the sound of a bass viol should go listen to a couple of Charles Mingus solos. Then cry yourself to sleep.

It strikes me that I'm often too subtle around here. Anyway, if my own disdain was too veiled, you sealed the deal.

I've already been around this bush in another forum concerning similar software for the violin. The violin gets 14 articulations.

Fourteen.

Even with a competent violinist playing a violin as a controller, it's obvious (to me anyway) when she makes moves that would normally produce a certain result and the software defaults to the nearest approximation it's capable of.

Maybe if I can find the post and vid I'll post it.
Old 3 days ago
  #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Pizzacato is capable of a lot more than you might think, but classical isn't necessarily where you'd find it. Listen to the great jazz bassists. I suggested a couple solos by the great Charles Mingus (and reaffirm that), but there are many, many great bassists in jazz and most of the play pizz most of the time.

The pizzacato bass viol is capable of as many and as varied articulations as the classical guitar, or close.
I'd be inclined to think that the upright bass has more pizzicato subtleties available to it than the violin. The length and width of the string just gives more to work with in that regard. Add to that the degree to which pizz is the norm and I wouldn't be surprised at all. I wonder how many of the 8 articulations the user of this software is blessed with are dedicated to pizz?

But anyway, John, we're on the same side here and I really don't think I need any schoolin. Thanks.


Beyond that. I'm trying to move on from this place. No further replies to my posts shall mean no further posts from me. I'm sure there are some that will find that suitable, if not cause for celebration.

Good day, sir.

GF
Old 3 days ago
  #56
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vernier's Avatar
There's nothing else quite like a real standup bass.
Old 2 days ago
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vernier View Post
There's nothing else quite like a real standup bass.
There's also a "fun" factor with the bass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK2sNramFck

Jaco btw went into understanding the differences between the double bass vs fretless jazz bass sound in detail. In general he has about 9 methods on his left hand on how he goes into the note, about another 9 methods on his left hand how he lifts from the note, on his right hand he uses his smaller two fingers to "deaden" the string in about 4 different ways, also on his right hand he has about 7 different plucking techniques, and he shifts his right hand position between the jazz pickup and "precision" pickup to significantly change tone/resonance/etc in about 5 locations. So that's 9x9x4x7x5=11340 different "articulations" he is using, of which he often changes that even between notes (so as those techniques merge between two notes there is now 11340^2 or 128 million effective sound grains).
Old 1 day ago
  #58
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In my studio I have recorded almost exclusively Double Bass. I rarely record or even play with electric bass players. I also have Trillian. It is a pretty good emulation and works well. What I'm not sure of is what is meant by articulations. Most of the more exotic articulations on string instruments involve the bow. Generally speaking, Jazz is mostly a form of pizzicato playing. The main thing that can't be done on the plug-in is glissandos. Trillian has a glissando but it is difficult to make it part of a live performance. Otherwise, if you are just playing a swing groove the plug-in works and sounds like a Double Bass.

To me, the real difference between electric and acoustic bass is not the articulations but the envelope. The attack, sustain and decay are different. The sound is different too but depending on how DB is recorded, for instance with a pick-up, the tonal difference is much less.

I don't know what is responsible for the difference in the envelope. Maybe its the length of the string, the way the bridge is made, the neck, the way the strings are made, etc. Whatever accounts for the difference it is not possible to make an electric bass sound like an acoustic Double Bass. It is possible to use a good sample program to play certain Double Bass parts, particulatly Jazz grooves. There can be telltale signs that will give it away but in general it is a usable substitute for certain applications.
Old 1 day ago
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
On standup bass, articulation is everything.
Articulation on DB and electric are roughly the same unless the DB is played with a bow. Otherwise it is roughly pizzicato. Its the envelope that accounts for the difference, the attack, sustain and decay.

The envelope is probably related to the length of the string, the proximity of the pickup, the difference between a hollow and solid bodiy, the way the necks are made and attached to the rest of the instrument, the way the strings are made, possibly the hand position or part of the finger used to pluck the string and the shape, size and material the bridge is made from (metal vs. wood bridge).

That is why the Trillian program does sound okay in certain context. Unless you are trying to play a lot of glissandos, bowed vibratos, etc. it will sound fine. If you are playing a straight eighth note walking groove, for instance, the articulation on DB and electric is the same - pizzicato. The envelope, however, is different.
Old 1 day ago
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy4Jazz View Post
Articulation on DB and electric are roughly the same unless the DB is played with a bow
This statement is patently false (even with a fretless electric).

...For starters, the scale length (and therefore finger travel) is different.

Have you ever actually tried to play a full-scale upright bass?
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