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Fender Twin 1965 Questions
Old 24th January 2020
  #1
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Arseny's Avatar
Fender Twin 1965 Questions

Now I wanna sell all my three amps (princetone Ri, JMI 30/2, Bad Cat Mini) and buy an old Fender Twin Blackface 1964. Wanna consolidate my recording setup, coz I wasn't really 100% satisfied with the recorded tone of those 3 nice amps. My converter, preamps, guitars and mics are OK so far (White Falcon, Custom Tele, Custom Les Paul; R121, MD421, C4038, Tubetech, CAPI…), so it's really about the amp tone, that inspires me.

Princetone RI is small and cute, nice sharp highs and that Fender brilliance character. But I was always missing the body and the authority I heard from the vintage ones. And it sounded always and bit 2D to me.

JMI 30/2 I bought to feel better after I had sold my old 70's Vox, which I highly regret. This amp is cool, the tone has a nice body, but no sparkle of an old Vox and I was always missing the highs.

Bad Cat Mini you see on my thumb was also a small pretty thing, sometimes a surprisingly good tone from my Gretsch and really great for it's size. But I don't need the small amps any more.

I don't need versatility and options. Just wanna one amp that tells me an authentic story. So I felt in love with that 60's vintage blackface sound. Last couple of days I was listening over and over to all the clips on Youtube. Yes, I was auditioning the Fender Reissue models as well, but somehow their tone hasn't touched my heart. You probably all know this guy:


Now I've finally found a vintage Fender Twin Reverb Blackface 1965. The amp is very pricy, about CHF 4k and not really near my place. The seller said, it has some Electro Voice speakers in it. I'd have to drive far to test it. I'm a bit worried about those EV speakers.

Could such speakers have a negative impact on the tone, the character and the value of the amp? Is it worth it at all, if it has no original speakers? I know, I'd have to hear the amp anyway, but very curios about your experience and overall thoughts. Thanks friends in advance!
Old 24th January 2020
  #2
Gear Head
 

authority is an understatement especially with tinnitus (LOUD). the ev’s will sound different. i think the fender bluesbreaker line is awesome.

i’ve always wanted a twin myself. but i would throw in thd yellow jackets on the power tubes and celestion green back speakers. to give it some vox mojo.

right now ive been playing my boss katana and the tube amps haven’t seen much action.

good luck!
Old 24th January 2020
  #3
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Yes, the speakers have a huge effect on the sound and value. You want it with original or period correct Jensens or JBLs. And the amp is worth substantially less without the original speakers. Also, make sure everything else is original.

That price is way too high. I wouldn't pay more than $2,500 for an all original post-CBS blackface Twin Reverb. Feel free to ask more questions, happy to help.
Old 24th January 2020
  #4
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Arseny's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorktop View Post
Yes, the speakers have a huge effect on the sound and value. You want it with original or period correct Jensens or JBLs. And the amp is worth substantially less without the original speakers. Also, make sure everything else is original.

That price is way too high. I wouldn't pay more than $2,500 for an all original post-CBS blackface Twin Reverb. Feel free to ask more questions, happy to help.
Thanks man, that's the answer I've been looking for.

Prices, yes… I think here in Switzerland, where I live (or maybe even in Germany), pro audio is quite often more expensive then in the States. The prices on Reverb.com appear to me sometimes pretty fair Even a swiss made (!) Studer A800 is cheaper in the US then in Europe, especially Switzerland… Ok, custom taxes and shipping costs add to the price, but even then... Telling you that, because you said it's too expensive, which I do believe, but… as I said, we here always have to pay more somehow :-) Anyways, after your respond I'm kinda more confident to make him a lower offer.

If you'd get that amp, what would you do in terms of speakers? Any experience with Electro Voice? Probably not so usual to see them in a Fender, right?

Would you go for Jensens or JBL? In the video I've posted, the blackface 65 has Jensens. Probably old ones. Sounds terrific to me. But if I pay so much and then I have to search for the original speakers to get really THAT tone, it doesn't make much sense maybe...

Maybe I should just forget that modded Twin and have more patience, waiting for an unmodded one with all original parts. But they don't appear often. I used to order smaller audio stuff from the States and UK like preamps. Maybe I should also consider the Fender amps available worldwide, if there is a video with the mic'd preamp and a serious seller with rating on ebay or reverb? But this is always tricky...not being able to try the amp and buy it almost blindly... Lot of confusion in my head. I just want that tone :-)
Old 24th January 2020
  #5
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It makes sense if you want the best tone on earth. Nothing compares to it. Once set up, they are more reliable than a modern amp. However, getting it, and getting it set up right takes cost and effort. Well worth it too.

You need access to a great amp tech. Otherwise, forget it. You don't need to hear it before you buy it as long as you can verify its all original (transformers, etc), they all sound amazing once set up right. Speakers and tubes can be easily replaced, transformers no. You don't know the state of the tubes, etc, so hearing it now is not necessarily a good judge. The amp tech will need to go over it when you first get it, retube it if necessary with NOS tubes (which you may also need to acquire), possibly change the power chord, replace some caps if necessary, etc. The caps contribute to the tone, and I'd try to keep the original caps if possible. You might want to ask the owner if its been recapped, and/or get pics of the caps to verify it. I'm happy to look at pics for you.

60s Jensens and JBLs are both amazing, can't go wrong with either. JBLs might be easier to come by, and held up better. You will need to make sure the speakers are original and in good condition with original cones, and it is best to have an experienced tech eyeball them for you before you buy.

The only EV speakers worth keeping are the SRO 12s. If it has those speakers with original cones, worth trying before you change them.

Twins are extremely heavy, if its shipped it needs to be crated, or it will get damaged. I wouldn't pay more for it than its actual value plus what you might pay for shipping & customs.

Last edited by Snorktop; 24th January 2020 at 03:39 PM..
Old 24th January 2020
  #6
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Arseny's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorktop View Post
It makes sense if you want the best tone on earth. Nothing compares to it. Once set up, they are more reliable than a modern amp. However, getting it, and getting it set up right takes cost and effort. Well worth it too.

You need access to a great amp tech. Otherwise, forget it. You don't need to hear it before you buy it as long as you can verify its all original (transformers, etc), they all sound amazing once set up right. Speakers and tubes can be easily replaced, transformers no. You don't know the state of the tubes, etc, so hearing it now is not necessarily a good judge. The amp tech will need to go over it when you first get it, retube it if necessary with NOS tubes (which you may also need to acquire), possibly change the power chord, replace some caps if necessary, etc. The caps contribute to the tone, and I'd try to keep the original caps if possible. You might want to ask the owner if its been recapped, and/or get pics of the caps to verify it. I'm happy to look at pics for you.

60s Jensens and JBLs are both amazing, can't go wrong with either. JBLs might be easier to come by, and held up better. You will need to make sure the speakers are original and in good condition with original cones, and it is best to have an experienced tech eyeball them for you before you buy.

The only EV speakers worth keeping are the SRO 12s. If it has those speakers with original cones, worth trying before you change them.

Twins are extremely heavy, if its shipped it needs to be crated, or it will get damaged. I wouldn't pay more for it than its actual value plus what you might pay for shipping & customs.
Thanks man for your efforts and time. Yeah, I got a few techs here. The guy said it just came fresh from a tech revision. Gotta ask about the EV speakers. I am awere of the additional tech costs. I got some tape machines (STuder, Revox), but it's worth, if I want THAT tone.

Oh, THAT tone is something my wife will never understand…
Old 4 weeks ago
  #7
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I'd have my own tech look over it when you get it. A receipt on the tech revision showing what work was done and who did the work is always helpful.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8
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guavadude's Avatar
you might consider looking at a head and 2x12” cab, like a BF bassman or a booteek 50watt 2-6L6 amp. There will be a lot more options to choose from and
in the studio they’ll cover the same territory but a less powerful amp can also be pushed. Getting an amp at that just breaking up point and dialing back your Gtr volume will add to your options.

The best “twin” I’ve ever heard is my black faced ‘68 SFSR through a 2x12” cab. The super Reverb set conservatively is a great clean and as much as I love the stock alnico 4x10s, the 2x12 with Celestion was just a killer clean with some give to it.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #9
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Dude is right, Twins are very loud, a Deluxe Reverb or Super Reverb breaks up sooner. I also prefer the SR on 2x12 or 4x12 cabs. But nothing sounds like a Twin Reverb, because of the volume and solid state rectifier. I'm not as fond of the blackface Bassman heads.

You could also get a Showman or Dual Showman head, which is like half the price, and is the same amp as a Twin Reverb, without the reverb. The reverb circuit adds something to the overall tone though, and the reverb on it is so sweet. I love Showmans though, I also go to it before the Twin Reverb and play it on 4x12 Celestion greenbacks. I rarely use reverb for some reason.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arseny View Post
Now I wanna sell all my three amps (princetone Ri, JMI 30/2, Bad Cat Mini) and buy an old Fender Twin Blackface 1964. Wanna consolidate my recording setup, coz I wasn't really 100% satisfied with the recorded tone of those 3 nice amps. My converter, preamps, guitars and mics are OK so far (White Falcon, Custom Tele, Custom Les Paul; R121, MD421, C4038, Tubetech, CAPI…), so it's really about the amp tone, that inspires me.

Princetone RI is small and cute, nice sharp highs and that Fender brilliance character. But I was always missing the body and the authority I heard from the vintage ones. And it sounded always and bit 2D to me.

JMI 30/2 I bought to feel better after I had sold my old 70's Vox, which I highly regret. This amp is cool, the tone has a nice body, but no sparkle of an old Vox and I was always missing the highs.

Bad Cat Mini you see on my thumb was also a small pretty thing, sometimes a surprisingly good tone from my Gretsch and really great for it's size. But I don't need the small amps any more.

I don't need versatility and options. Just wanna one amp that tells me an authentic story. So I felt in love with that 60's vintage blackface sound. Last couple of days I was listening over and over to all the clips on Youtube. Yes, I was auditioning the Fender Reissue models as well, but somehow their tone hasn't touched my heart. You probably all know this guy:


Now I've finally found a vintage Fender Twin Reverb Blackface 1965. The amp is very pricy, about CHF 4k and not really near my place. The seller said, it has some Electro Voice speakers in it. I'd have to drive far to test it. I'm a bit worried about those EV speakers.

Could such speakers have a negative impact on the tone, the character and the value of the amp? Is it worth it at all, if it has no original speakers? I know, I'd have to hear the amp anyway, but very curios about your experience and overall thoughts. Thanks friends in advance!
Worst case, you can sell those EVs for around $150-$200 each and buy whatever floats your boat. But they ARE great speakers for a Twin.

The only downside is that they weigh a freakin' TON - even more than JBL D120s.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorktop View Post
The only EV speakers worth keeping are the SRO 12s. If it has those speakers with original cones, worth trying before you change them.
I disagree. Both SROs and EVMs are great speakers for a Twin. Actually there's not that much difference except the magnet. The original SRO has a truly massive Alnico magnet that actually weighs even more than the ceramic of the EVM. In fact the first runs of the EVM were badged as SROs.

The EVM was the standard speaker used for Mesa Boogies for many years - that should tell you something.

The premium speaker of that era I'd steer clear of is the Altec - those are brighter with less warmth and also blow easier. Some people do like them but I don't.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by guavadude View Post
you might consider looking at a head and 2x12” cab, like a BF bassman or a booteek 50watt 2-6L6 amp. There will be a lot more options to choose from and
in the studio they’ll cover the same territory but a less powerful amp can also be pushed. Getting an amp at that just breaking up point and dialing back your Gtr volume will add to your options.

The best “twin” I’ve ever heard is my black faced ‘68 SFSR through a 2x12” cab. The super Reverb set conservatively is a great clean and as much as I love the stock alnico 4x10s, the 2x12 with Celestion was just a killer clean with some give to it.
Fender didn't use ANY Alnico speakers by that time except for the optional JBLs. All the others were ceramic by '68. They're almost certainly also not Jensens - by that time nearly all "Fender Special Design Speakers" were Oxfords. If they actually are Jensens they'll have a frame stamp with a "220" manufacturer code. Oxford will be 465, Utah 328.

Here's a fairly comprehensive listing of EIA speaker codes (I don't know of any that are 100% complete.

http://www.thespeakershop.com/speake.../eiacodes.html
Old 4 weeks ago
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Fender didn't use ANY Alnico speakers by that time except for the optional JBLs. All the others were ceramic by '68. They're almost certainly also not Jensens - by that time nearly all "Fender Special Design Speakers" were Oxfords. If they actually are Jensens they'll have a frame stamp with a "220" manufacturer code. Oxford will be 465, Utah 328.

Here's a fairly comprehensive listing of EIA speaker codes (I don't know of any that are 100% complete.

http://www.thespeakershop.com/speake.../eiacodes.html
whatever. My SFSR is a '68 drip edge has CTS alnico 4x10" speakers just like these

https://reverb.com/item/16439960-cts...everb-set-of-4
Old 4 weeks ago
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by guavadude View Post
whatever. My SFSR is a '68 drip edge has CTS alnico 4x10" speakers just like these

https://reverb.com/item/16439960-cts...everb-set-of-4
CTS is not Jensen. Yes, CTS also supplied some speakers to Fender, but not nearly as many as Oxford. Leo had a tendency to go with the lowest bidder on stuff like that.

Do your speakers have the blue "Special Design" sticker on the back? If not they're not original.

(CTS speakers will have the "137" frame stamp.)

The speakers you referenced are in fact Alnico - must have been some of the last Alnicos Fender shipped.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
CTS is not Jensen. Yes, CTS also supplied some speakers to Fender, but not nearly as many as Oxford. Leo had a tendency to go with the lowest bidder on stuff like that.

Do your speakers have the blue "Special Design" sticker on the back? If not they're not original.

(CTS speakers will have the "137" frame stamp.)

The speakers you referenced are in fact Alnico - must have been some of the last Alnicos Fender shipped.
I never said they were Jensens, I just said they sound great.
Yes, mine are stock with the blue stickers just like this. I will say that I've tried a lot of Super Reverbs when I was looking for the one, and this amp sounded so much better than any other I've ever tried.

I can't imagine using JBLs in anything anymore. Just too much of everything for me. I certainly can't imagine ever lifting a Twin with or without JBLs either.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by guavadude View Post
I never said they were Jensens, I just said they sound great.
Yes, mine are stock with the blue stickers just like this. I will say that I've tried a lot of Super Reverbs when I was looking for the one, and this amp sounded so much better than any other I've ever tried.

I can't imagine using JBLs in anything anymore. Just too much of everything for me. I certainly can't imagine ever lifting a Twin with or without JBLs either.
That's what roadies are for.

JBLs sound MUCH better if you have the aluminum dust caps replaced with paper, like JBL uses in their pro audio series.

There's nothing like a great Super Reverb except, maybe, a blackface 4x10 Fender Concert. With REAL Jensens with the round "bell cover" over the magnet.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #17
Any silver face low cost used twin reverb can be converted to AB763 specs by any capable amp guy. It's a lot cheaper than $4000.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #18
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A Twin is great for stunning small animals but is really fricking loud. While a Twin is great, you may find the same fender flavor in lower-wattage amps - Pro Reverb, for example.

I'd also say that before ditching your Princeton reverb reissue, try it into 2x12 cab - you'll be surprised what that amp can do when it's not playing through the stock 10". I have a Kendrick Black frame in my 77 Princeton Reverb, and while I like it, the amp changes completely when I plugged it into a 65 Bandmaster 2x12 cab with Warehouse G12C's in it, or into a Dr. Z 1x12 closed back.

You may already have the amps, but adding extra speaker cabs will give you lots of tonal options - even for that Bad Cat Mini.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #19
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Arseny's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nedorama View Post
A Twin is great for stunning small animals but is really fricking loud. While a Twin is great, you may find the same fender flavor in lower-wattage amps - Pro Reverb, for example.

I'd also say that before ditching your Princeton reverb reissue, try it into 2x12 cab - you'll be surprised what that amp can do when it's not playing through the stock 10". I have a Kendrick Black frame in my 77 Princeton Reverb, and while I like it, the amp changes completely when I plugged it into a 65 Bandmaster 2x12 cab with Warehouse G12C's in it, or into a Dr. Z 1x12 closed back.

You may already have the amps, but adding extra speaker cabs will give you lots of tonal options - even for that Bad Cat Mini.
Thanks for putting it in a completely new perspective!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #20
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Snorktop's Avatar
 

Speakers have a huge effect on the tone, and nothing sounds as good as vintage speakers.

But nothing sounds as good as a vintage amp too. I've never heard a reissue sound nearly as good, even on vintage speakers. Even with vintage tubes in it. Although I am sure playing the Princeton RI through a 1x12 or 2x12 would sound much better, and on vintage speakers better still. Not the same universe as a vintage amp though.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #21
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Does original Blackface in general means a more authentic, true retro tone then original Silverface?

I’m asking coz locally there are couple of guys selling some 70‘ Silverface amps:

https://www.tutti.ch/de/vi/zuerich/m...e-amp/34243908

https://www.tutti.ch/de/vi/luzern/mu...-1974/32242010
Old 4 weeks ago
  #22
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Snorktop's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arseny View Post
Does original Blackface in general means a more authentic, true retro tone then original Silverface?
Yes it does, bigtime. A real amp tech can modify an early 70s silverface to blackface specs, though with a Twin, you will want a very early 85w silverface (which is essentially the same circuit anyway).

Last edited by Snorktop; 4 weeks ago at 04:51 AM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #23
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https://www.tutti.ch/de/vi/tessin/mu...-1974/30636756

This one also looks really good to me. Hard to tell on price based on location but just try to get the oldest, cleanest, best sounding one at a good price that still has all original parts. Recently serviced and power capacitors replaced is a plus.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #24
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Arseny's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by guavadude View Post
https://www.tutti.ch/de/vi/tessin/mu...-1974/30636756

This one also looks really good to me. Hard to tell on price based on location but just try to get the oldest, cleanest, best sounding one at a good price that still has all original parts. Recently serviced and power capacitors replaced is a plus.
Thanks!
What do you guys think about this blackface beauty? it says it's original 1964.
drool

https://shop.guitarpoint.de/de/Verst...peaker-Cabinet

Last edited by Arseny; 4 weeks ago at 11:38 PM.. Reason: grammar
Old 4 weeks ago
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arseny View Post
Thanks!
What do you guys think of this blackface beauty? it says it's original 1964.
drool

https://shop.guitarpoint.de/de/Verst...peaker-Cabinet
That’s usually referred to as a Blonde beauty. Yeah cool amp but I prefer an amp with Reverb and open back cab for clean sounds. Go play a bunch with your guitar and one will stand out from the others.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arseny View Post
Thanks!
What do you guys think of this blackface beauty? it says it's original 1964.
drool

https://shop.guitarpoint.de/de/Verst...peaker-Cabinet
Blonde amps are amazing, but they don't sound like a blackface, they are closer to a tweed. Beautiful though. The harmonic vibrato on certain blonde amps is the best ever made. The Bassman doesn't have it. Oxfords don't compare to Jensens or JBLs imo, I'd change them or just get a head and put it on different cab.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arseny View Post
Does original Blackface in general means a more authentic, true retro tone then original Silverface?
Not always. It depends on what you mean by "original silverface".

The first silverface amps (model AB763, "drip edge") were EXACTLY the same as blackface (also AB763) amps.

After that the amp went through a number of revisions, still with the basic "silverface" aesthetics.

You can tell if your amp is an AB763 because on the inside of the amp cabinet there will be a tube chart sticker that gives the model number and, in most cases, also features an ink stamped code that designates the shipping date with two letters, indicating year and month shipped.

After that there were quite a few "evolutionary" versions of the Silverface Twin. By the mid '70s CBS/Fender had dropped the tube chart in most cases while continuing to evolve the amp, finally culminating in the notorious 140 watt "Ultralinear" version, which had no tube chart, no model stamp, a pressboard case instead of the traditional finger laced pine, and a radically different transformer set engineered to produce the increased power of 140 watts (compared to the original 88 watts of the AN763 and the 100 watts of some of the intermediate models.

Generally speaking, the more "advanced" it gets from a 763, the worse it sounds as a rock/blues amp. However, most versions can be returned to an AB763 spec by a competent tech. The later, ultralinear amp make great pedal steel and keyboard amps.Too loud and much too clean for most rock guitar.

Most silverface Twins can be fairly easily reverted to AB763 spec, the difficulty and expense depending on the exact model.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arseny View Post
Thanks!
What do you guys think about this blackface beauty? it says it's original 1964.
drool

https://shop.guitarpoint.de/de/Verst...peaker-Cabinet
That is NOT a blackface, it is a brownface, which somewhat radically different from a Blackface (and to many connoisseurs much more desirable.)

The brownface circuit is intermediate between the Tweed and the Blackface. It has two full channels with their own tone circuits like a Blackface, but has a power amp section with a 12AX7 phase inverter (the AB763 has a lower gain 12AT7) and a presence control like a tweed of vintage Marshall, which the AB763 lacks. The Presence is NOT part of the tone circuit, it works on the negative feedback loop of the power amp and therefore has effects significantly beyond a conventional "tone stack".

I've elaborated on this numerous times, so I won't repeat myself here. Not now, anyway.

A Brownface in good condition is significantly more valuable than a blackface.

As to the dating, it probably is not actually a '64 - by that time Fender had transitioned to the AB763, but may have a '64 date code on the sticker, as the code indicates date of shipping to the dealer, not date of manufacture. These days there are a lot of sellers who don't understand the difference. In my opinion this is probably an actual late '63 that left the factory in early '64.

Brownface amps came in either blonde or light brown Tolex. Blackface amps were always black Tolex.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #29
Quote:
Originally Posted by guavadude View Post
That’s usually referred to as a Blonde beauty. Yeah cool amp but I prefer an amp with Reverb and open back cab for clean sounds. Go play a bunch with your guitar and one will stand out from the others.
So go buy a standalone Fender spring reverb. Sounds better than the (simplified) circuit in the (later) amps, too.

As to the open back, probably naah. Closed back projects better and has significantly better lows.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #30
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Friends, I've just found a shop with a couple of blackfaces! Not really close to my place, but close enough to give me some confidence that they can't screw it...

Which amp out of these would you consider the best (whatever that means, but think about - most desirable, most vintage and true sounding and a more serious 3d tone than my little princeton RI). I probably won't be able to try before buy. Got to rely on the amp description and the good reputation of the shop:
https://shop.guitarpoint.de/de/Verst...tion=available

BTW I've just updated my taste, so it actually doesn't have to be the Twin. Really liked this Super Blackface here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h_iujpSUqA

A) That 1966 Super Blackface in the shop looks quite similar and should sound similar, right? Should I order it?
B) Or should I get into the car and test all 3 blackfaces and 2 brownfaces? Would take me a whole day (currently not so easy)
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