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Looking for tips to use hardware overdrive pedal with amp sim !
Old 3 weeks ago
  #31
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Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
It depends on how critical you are, what you listen for, and what sort of music you're involved with.

Amps sims have improved immensely but there's still a lot of stuff they don't work well for. Maybe "good enough" for a lot of people, but not really there for those who are more critical. They also tend to work better for more distorted type tones.
But that's not what this thread is about.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #32
Quote:
Originally Posted by owen_musician View Post
My RME interface can be set to Line/Mic/Inst and the INST setting has 0/+4dB/+10dB - so thus along with the ability to set gain/compression and EQ in Totalmix this surely obviates the potentisl issues you raised, no?
No, it doesn't, not really. The accepted nominal tracking level for digital is ab out -15dBfs or even a little lower. The problem is not in the level of the individual track, the problem ios what happens when you mix tracks and the overall level approached digital clipping, which is not good.

The thing is that the noise floor is so low with digital that there is absolutely no sane reason for tracking any hotter - it doesn't get you anything. It's totally different than analog. Tracking too hot digitally just gets you nasty digital distortion, it doesn't make things sound fatter. If anything quite the contrary.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
No, it doesn't, not really. The accepted nominal tracking level for digital is ab out -15dBfs or even a little lower. The problem is not in the level of the individual track, the problem ios what happens when you mix tracks and the overall level approached digital clipping, which is not good.

The thing is that the noise floor is so low with digital that there is absolutely no sane reason for tracking any hotter - it doesn't get you anything. It's totally different than analog. Tracking too hot digitally just gets you nasty digital distortion, it doesn't make things sound fatter. If anything quite the contrary.
If you like the sound of angry drugged out alien robots then digital distortion is awesome.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #34
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Originally Posted by tenderboy View Post
But that's not what this thread is about.
I wouldn't entirely agree with that. It's all interrelated.

In this case the major problem, as I stated previously, is that an overdrive pedal doesn't and can't interact with an amp sim program the same way it does with physical hardware.

The OP is having trouble getting what he wants out of his setup. The problem is one of the inherent drawbacks of amp sims programs. ANY amp sim programs, because there is no direct connect from the pedal to the "amp", it's buffered by a recording preamp and converter so there's no real relationship between the level off the OD box and the level the program thinks it's seeing.

Which is a bit of a simplification, but gets the general idea across.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #35
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by el_narvalo View Post
Ok, I'll make a couple of tests keeping in mind all your advices. I'm learning a lot, so thank you all for your detailled messages.



I'm always recording my guitar through the whole pedalboard. Could that be an issue ?

There's a EHX silencer at the beginning of the chain, then the Boss OD 3, a Fuzz Factory (having troubles to get a good sound out of it, I need to lower the volume a lot on the guitar, I get a lot of noise and hiss, oscillation appart), a ProCo Rat 2 (I don't really use it, except with synths), and finally a TC electronic flashback 2 (which I love). I use two mono jacks out of the Flashback into the Focusrite, and use the Stereo mode on the plugin, even when the delay pedal is bypassed, because I don't want to plug/unplug all that gear all the time.
Is there something wrong with my setup ?
Thats as i explained. No buffers will help (can even make things worst) unless you are using buffer units which convert the signal to balanced (DI-wise)
Old 3 weeks ago
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by owen_musician View Post
Might want to familiarise yourself with the RME hardware and software before confidently proclaiming what can't be done with it.
I have 3x8-channel RME interfaces (not used much these days) which were bought for a Nuendo rig (we did a big movie project which used nuendo - i need to remember to try and sell them if i can get anything for them). Now they are gathering dust a bit, but I am familiar with RME. We also use RME dig-dig 8-channel IOs to convert signal between workstations. My cousin has ADI-2 PRO FS (I think that's the model - my memory is not what it used to be).
There is no magic there associated with this - this is gain-staging and level matching. Perhaps you should familiarise yourself with that?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
No, it doesn't, not really. The accepted nominal tracking level for digital is ab out -15dBfs or even a little lower.
Wtf are you talking about?
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #38
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Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Wtf are you talking about?
I was answering a question about recording levels from the OP.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
I was answering a question about recording levels from the OP.
I know *that*. But there's zero reason to go for -15dB or even lower. Don't clip your inputs and you're fine, that's all there is about it.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
I have 3x8-channel RME interfaces (not used much these days) which were bought for a Nuendo rig (we did a big movie project which used nuendo - i need to remember to try and sell them if i can get anything for them). Now they are gathering dust a bit, but I am familiar with RME. We also use RME dig-dig 8-channel IOs to convert signal between workstations. My cousin has ADI-2 PRO FS (I think that's the model - my memory is not what it used to be).
There is no magic there associated with this - this is gain-staging and level matching. Perhaps you should familiarise yourself with that?
The salient part is the Totalmix bit. You can gain stage and level match to your heart's content with that before the signal even makes it to the DAW. You don't know how to work totalmix do you?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #41
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Fwiw, regardless of which "school of thought" anyone might be following, you *don't* push the input of an amp simulation plugin by adding a boosting analog drive in front of your interfaces input. If you want to push the plugins input, use a digital gainer plugin in front of it. This will essentially be doing the same as boosting the input of an analog amp. You may use additional analog drives in front of your DAW for coloration purposes, though.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #42
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You know what? I'm so ****ing OVER the same ****s clogging up threads with the same **** ANY time a poster asks for help with amp simulation.

We get it. You don't like them. In my view it's because you don't know what the **** you're doing and in your view it's because amp sims are ****.
Whatever. It doesn't matter which view is correct.

What matters is that every single ****ing time anyone has the temerity to ask for how to pick a good sim, get a good sound out of one, record with one or, in this case, use a pedal in front of one you ****s just HAVE to wade in telling the hapless OP that they'll never get anything useable and to not even bother to try.
Why? Do you feel compelled to repeat your unsolicited views over and over until you're sure every last person on the Internet has heard them?

It boils my ****ing piss because we can never, EVER actually help anyone or have a productive discussion because you just HAVE to **** it up Every. Single. Time.
So pretty please with a ****ing cherry on the top - stop shutting down every discussion related to amp sims and just **** off. If your gear is so awesome and/or your studio is so successful why are you wasting your time here? Go make 'chicks' dance or mix another hit record or beat up Georges St Pierre or whatever it is you totally do in real life.

Now, to the OP: Hi. Sorry you had to see all that.

Unlike those who will write endlessly about how getting a drive pedal to work with a sim is impossible, I will actually upload some evidence of how it is in fact entirely possible.
I'll plug my guitar into my Wampler Tumnus Deluxe and plug that into the Hi-z input of my RME UCX and use it to add drive to various amps from NDSP's Plini and Nolly archetypes.
You can make your own judgements as to the results. You might think it sounds decent and want to pursue that option; you might think it doesn't and decide it's not worth bothering with. What you absolutely WILL get is a chance to make up your own mind rather than being told what to think.

I'll also bet you a million, billion, trillion dollars that none of the 'it can't be done with an amp sim' crowd will upload themselves playing anything at all - let alone them playing anything which will prove that their analogue rigs sound so superior that using pedals to drive an amp sim isn't even worth trying.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Fwiw, regardless of which "school of thought" anyone might be following, you *don't* push the input of an amp simulation plugin by adding a boosting analog drive in front of your interfaces input. If you want to push the plugins input, use a digital gainer plugin in front of it. This will essentially be doing the same as boosting the input of an analog amp. You may use additional analog drives in front of your DAW for coloration purposes, though.
Arguing over whether or not the input of a sim is 'pushed' is beside the point.
The question was: is it possible to
"dial in a nice tone with a real overdrive pedal in front of Archetype : Nolly by Neural DSP"?
The bloke just wants to know whether it's possible to get a decent sound, not get pages of theoretical postulates on whether an audio interface is a 'front end' etc.
If you plug an OD pedal into an interface and open an amp sim and turn up the gain on the pedal, the sound coming out of the amp sim will have more gain. It's just that simple. Anyone can verify that in a matter of moments - and no dissertations on physics or electrical impedance are necessary.

Whether or not the player likes the sound is another matter. Me, I like the sound of my Wampler into Nolly because neither of Nolly's drive pedals are Klons and sometimes I want a Klon flavour.

Last edited by owen_musician; 3 weeks ago at 11:31 PM.. Reason: Spelling fail
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #44
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by owen_musician View Post
The salient part is the Totalmix bit. You can gain stage and level match to your heart's content with that before the signal even makes it to the DAW. You don't know how to work totalmix do you?
Total Mix is after the AD conversion. Your issue is with the input BEFORE AD. It is not designed for instrument level. But maybe it is not an issue for you.
I had the same issue with Creamware system ages ago. Great DSP assisted card-based system which worked with many DAWs. HAD amp and synth sims. But you had to use a di to get to it with a guitar. And I did use RME converters with that
Old 3 weeks ago
  #45
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by owen_musician View Post
You know what? I'm so ****ing OVER the same ****s clogging up threads with the same **** ANY time a poster asks for help with amp simulation.

We get it. You don't like them. In my view it's because you don't know what the **** you're doing and in your view it's because amp sims are ****.
Whatever. It doesn't matter which view is correct.

What matters is that every single ****ing time anyone has the temerity to ask for how to pick a good sim, get a good sound out of one, record with one or, in this case, use a pedal in front of one you ****s just HAVE to wade in telling the hapless OP that they'll never get anything useable and to not even bother to try.
Why? Do you feel compelled to repeat your unsolicited views over and over until you're sure every last person on the Internet has heard them?

It boils my ****ing piss because we can never, EVER actually help anyone or have a productive discussion because you just HAVE to **** it up Every. Single. Time.
So pretty please with a ****ing cherry on the top - stop shutting down every discussion related to amp sims and just **** off. If your gear is so awesome and/or your studio is so successful why are you wasting your time here? Go make 'chicks' dance or mix another hit record or beat up Georges St Pierre or whatever it is you totally do in real life.

Now, to the OP: Hi. Sorry you had to see all that.

Unlike those who will write endlessly about how getting a drive pedal to work with a sim is impossible, I will actually upload some evidence of how it is in fact entirely possible.
I'll plug my guitar into my Wampler Tumnus Deluxe and plug that into the Hi-z input of my RME UCX and use it to add drive to various amps from NDSP's Plini and Nolly archetypes.
You can make your own judgements as to the results. You might think it sounds decent and want to pursue that option; you might think it doesn't and decide it's not worth bothering with. What you absolutely WILL get is a chance to make up your own mind rather than being told what to think.

I'll also bet you a million, billion, trillion dollars that none of the 'it can't be done with an amp sim' crowd will upload themselves playing anything at all - let alone them playing anything which will prove that their analogue rigs sound so superior that using pedals to drive an amp sim isn't even worth trying.
No one said you cannot use a pedal with a sim. You just have to follow gains-taging and level staging rules. Its a 40$ DI for gods sake, and another cable. Whats the big deal? Why the outburst? No-one is telling you what to do, there is experience being shared to show you how to improve what you are getting. Learn and be happy. I learn all the time. That's why I am still here, not to argue with you, and cohorts, about bu****t
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by owen_musician View Post
You know what? I'm so ****ing OVER the same ****s clogging up threads with the same **** ANY time a poster asks for help with amp simulation.

Wampler Tumnus Deluxe
It's pretty predictable these days what the response from one guy in particular will be. Ignorant narcissists are the most damaging breed. Just wish at times they could differentiate between an opinion and a fact.....

As for the Tumnus - awesome pedal...
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
It is not designed for instrument level.
Bith the Scarlet 2i2 of the thread starter and the Rme UCX have hi-z instrument inputs optimized for inputs like electric guitars.

No need for a DI. Hope you could learn something.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenderboy View Post
Bith the Scarlet 2i2 of the thread starter and the Rme UCX have hi-z instrument inputs optimized for inputs like electric guitars.

No need for a DI. Hope you could learn something.
Used to use a damage control pedal before amplitude some years ago - don't recall having any massive dramas doing that. Just plugged in to the hi-z of the iD 22.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
I know *that*. But there's zero reason to go for -15dB or even lower. Don't clip your inputs and you're fine, that's all there is about it.
Sorry, you are incorrect. If you record digitally at levels much above -15dBfs when you mic you will get intersample peaks that go into digital clipping and sound like crap.

To tell the truth I don't totally understand the theory/math, but I'm ABSOLUTELY willing to take the word of guys who know a lot more than me, like some of the top guys who hang out on Pro Recording Workshop, Terry Manning's site, which has a lot of the top guys in the world as regular posters.(and who have to use real names so you know who you're talking to.)

And when I do what they say things sound better.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
I know *that*. But there's zero reason to go for -15dB or even lower. Don't clip your inputs and you're fine, that's all there is about it.
WRONG. You don't understand how digital summing works.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #51
Quote:
Originally Posted by owen_musician View Post
The salient part is the Totalmix bit. You can gain stage and level match to your heart's content with that before the signal even makes it to the DAW. You don't know how to work totalmix do you?
<guffaw>

Do you understand who Yuri is?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #52
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenderboy View Post
Bith the Scarlet 2i2 of the thread starter and the Rme UCX have hi-z instrument inputs optimized for inputs like electric guitars.

No need for a DI. Hope you could learn something.
It's a well known fact that the so-called "HiZ" instrument inputs on the Scarlett series suck rotten dog balls*. The second generation is slightly better, but still suck.

Wrong impedance, wrong gain structure. Horrible interface from a company coasting on theirs laurels from products from decades ago that have nothing to do with current product.

Buy a real, quality DI. Radial and Countryman both have acceptable boxes. There a a few that are better, but quite costly.

While you're at it, buy a decent quality interface.


* - and there are plenty of threads on this forum to prove it.

Last edited by John Eppstein; 3 weeks ago at 06:46 AM..
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Sorry, you are incorrect. If you record digitally at levels much above -15dBfs when you mic you will get intersample peaks that go into digital clipping and sound like crap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
WRONG. You don't understand how digital summing works.
It's exactly the other way around: Yet again, you are proving that you have *zero* clue of what you are talking about.
Intersample peaks don't happen on the way in and we're not talking about digital summing.

It's embarassing to have you show up as Mr. Knowitall when in reality you pretty much never seem to be able to back anything up.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Do you understand who Yuri is?
And why would that matter?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
<guffaw>

Do you understand who Yuri is?
I just looked him up and I'm none the wiser as to what he's done personally in the music business. All I got from a, quick Google search is he owns a studio in Australia which he says is the best in the country and comparable only to Abbey Road. Maybe the journalist misquoted him. They do that.

I haven't recorded in Australia so I can't comment on that part but I have recorded at Abbey Road and AIR and Metropolis and Olympic and it doesn't seem *quite* on that level.
It does look pretty awesome though - with some great gear - and I think the policy of letting clients use the guitar collection etc as part of the deal is a nice touch and makes me think maybe he's a good bloke*.
I also recognise one of his engineers (by name) who apparently mixed one of the bands I was in and has worked with some people I've known and worked with. Small world.


*He's still wrong about amp sims though.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #56
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Let's rather stick to the facts instead of getting into politics again.

Thing is, so far, Yuri, while I certainly don't doubt he's got plenty of experience, hasn't backed up any of the claims he was coming up with all throughout the modeling related threads. In addition, he seems to have very little experience as far as modeling goes and even goes as far as to claim things that just don't happen in the "normal" world (such as amps sounding the same in the same room and via control room monitors) to back up whatever weird things.
In other words: Nothing the bloke has to say about recording guitars on a budget holds any value. As easy as that.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by owen_musician View Post
I just looked him up and I'm none the wiser as to what he's done personally in the music business. All I got from a, quick Google search is he owns a studio in Australia which he says is the best in the country and comparable only to Abbey Road. Maybe the journalist misquoted him. They do that.

I haven't recorded in Australia so I can't comment on that part but I have recorded at Abbey Road and AIR and Metropolis and Olympic and it doesn't seem *quite* on that level.
It does look pretty awesome though - with some great gear - and I think the policy of letting clients use the guitar collection etc as part of the deal is a nice touch and makes me think maybe he's a good bloke*.
I also recognise one of his engineers (by name) who apparently mixed one of the bands I was in and has worked with some people I've known and worked with. Small world.


*He's still wrong about amp sims though.
Which one of the engineers do you know? They all hated the Kemper BTW. Your mates band must be in the top category. One of the guys worked with caliber like Elton John, Paul McCartney, INXS... All other ones been there/done that too.
I have been in that business since ~'85 and done "a few thing" - not complaining re my career. I am retired now (have other business interest) but still do about a week/month for clients who ask for me.
Our gear collection is one of the best in the world. The rooms sound AMAZING.
We had a few clients from the US - they say a studio like that there is 5k/day. We are a small fraction of that so they prefer to pay plane tickets and our fees, no need to transport instruments - we have it all. There is basic accommodation at the studio, or we have 50% off at local motels. Whats your friends band?
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