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What Defines a Great Guitarist?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #811
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
This entirely escapes me unless it is some musical equivalent to inflection in speech. If the thing itself is actually identical, what matters the label/symbol? [. . .]
Stepping back a bit from sharps vs. enharmonically equivalent flats. . .

Think of how you hear the high F as you play an F barre chord in 1st position, and how you hear that exact, same F as you play an 'open' G7 chord. You may - in some situations - hear that note differently somehow? I hesitate to say that it is like that - in some ways it very much isn't - but the analogy may be useful. The context of the music can somehow pull you one way or another. And the extent this kind of thing is experienced by one person vs another varies widely - I think - from one person to another.

As to sharps vs. flats specifically. . .

Maybe listen toward the end of Adam Neely's The 5 Music Theory/Composition Books That Most Influenced Me as he discusses Allaudin Mathieu's book Harmonic Experience. . .for some related notions.


Best regards,

Ray H.

Last edited by RayHeath; 3 weeks ago at 12:40 PM.. Reason: Updated publisher link for Harmonic Experience. . .though my copy came via Amazon.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #812
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enorbet2's Avatar
Thanks Ray. Fascinating video and it does demonstrate what I've been mentioning about the difficulty of notation with letters as opposed to the mathematics of ratios or just raw experience of what and how we hear. The concept makes sense to me now in terms of context as well as placement since bending notes, especially with vibrato applied, can "warble" between those microtonal relationships to considerable effect. I hadn't thought about that in composition but now I see seat-of-thepants composition (improv) can employ and even depend on those relationships to create fairly unique effect, even if only by instinct. This stuff is fascinating. Thanks again.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #813
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chrischoir's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
microtonal
you are a big fan of that
Old 2 weeks ago
  #814
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Mikhael's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
you are a big fan of that
A lot of guitarists use microtonal movement, even standard rock ones. Joe Walsh would be a good example, and most blues guitarists do. Not intentionally, I don't think; it's just part of their style. McLaughlin did, and it's a big thing with horns, especially Sax.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #815
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
you are a big fan of that
True, but then I think that's because I play guitar, not piano. I find 12 tone tempered confining and claustrophobic, not to mention excessively "anal".
Old 2 weeks ago
  #816
Gear Nut
 
froleich's Avatar
 

I'd define a good guitarist as myself.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #817
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
No doubt, but there are loads of jazz musicians who love his work. Holdsdworth was in some revolutionary fusion bands and a couple big rock bands. Lifetime and Soft-machine are 2 of the biggest fusion bands. 'Bruford' and UK had decent followings worldwide as well. A few years ago Wetton and Jobson reunited with Marco Minnehan. I recall them playing some larger theaters and sold them out. They had a guitarist that was Holdsworth clone. I have no Idea if they asked Holdsworth to tour, but he still had a big following.
I saw Soft Machine open for Hendrix in Newark, N.J. on his first headline tour in '68. I liked them a lot. They also had no guitarist at that time and really didn't need one - they were just a trio, organ, bass, and drums. Mike Ratledge got sounds out of his Hammond that I've never heard before or since. Amazing psychedelic band. I've always though that they went down hill somewhat when they got more into jazz. Certainly not as sonically inventive.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #818
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
He is in the top 5 of Fusion players. He may even be the best. The 'Lifetime' album is arguably the most influential fusion album of of all time for shredding.
I have no argument with that. The problem is that that sort of "fusion" mixes the worst, most self-indulgent (and IMO non-musical) aspects of jazz and metal into one big unlistenable amalgam. I'm not denying his amazing technique, for those who confuse technique with musicality. I just can't stand to listen to him for more than a couple or so minutes.

I prefer to listen to music and watch acrobatics, not vice-versa.

The key word in your post is "shredding". Shredding isn't music - it's acrobatics. Its only real statement is "HEY, look at MEEEE!!!!" Which is fine if you're watching teenage girls at the Olympics. But it's not my idea of music.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #819
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
... Which is fine if you're watching teenage girls at the Olympics.
Sorry, what?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #820
Gear Maniac
 
sniff's Avatar
 

freudian shred
Old 2 weeks ago
  #821
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henryrobinett's Avatar
One man’s music is another’s toilet. Who cares what anyone thinks? Personally I think Holdsworth is amazing. I need to listen to him in small doses. But I find him exceptionally musical. If ones palette is small you will only like or appreciate and a handful of things. That’s my opinion, but as I said, who cares?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #822
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chrischoir's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
I saw Soft Machine open for Hendrix in Newark, N.J. on his first headline tour in '68. I liked them a lot. They also had no guitarist at that time and really didn't need one - they were just a trio, organ, bass, and drums. Mike Ratledge got sounds out of his Hammond that I've never heard before or since. Amazing psychedelic band. I've always though that they went down hill somewhat when they got more into jazz. Certainly not as sonically inventive.
are you from Jersey?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #823
Gear Nut
 
froleich's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
I saw Soft Machine open for Hendrix in Newark, N.J. on his first headline tour in '68. I liked them a lot. They also had no guitarist at that time and really didn't need one - they were just a trio, organ, bass, and drums. Mike Ratledge got sounds out of his Hammond that I've never heard before or since. Amazing psychedelic band. I've always though that they went down hill somewhat when they got more into jazz. Certainly not as sonically inventive.
How was Hendrix? He's one of my fav's.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #824
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grannis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
are you from Jersey?
No I’m pretty sure he’s from somewhere in America
Old 2 weeks ago
  #825
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Mikhael's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
I have no argument with that. The problem is that that sort of "fusion" mixes the worst, most self-indulgent (and IMO non-musical) aspects of jazz and metal into one big unlistenable amalgam. I'm not denying his amazing technique, for those who confuse technique with musicality. I just can't stand to listen to him for more than a couple or so minutes.

I prefer to listen to music and watch acrobatics, not vice-versa.

The key word in your post is "shredding". Shredding isn't music - it's acrobatics. Its only real statement is "HEY, look at MEEEE!!!!" Which is fine if you're watching teenage girls at the Olympics. But it's not my idea of music.
The key word was "shredding", and Holdsworth was NOT a shredder; he was beyond a lot of those styles, into his own. I can watch videos of him, and pick up something different every single time.

He moved me. That is the mark of a great guitarist, no matter the style.
Old 1 week ago
  #826
Gear Addict
This is a great guitarist:

http://stephenwake.bandcamp.com/albu...-celtic-guitar

dude even has the tabs AND sheet music to accompany his release of incredible arrangements. Should we accept anything less from a "great guitarist?"
Old 1 week ago
  #827
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
The key word in your post is "shredding". Shredding isn't music - it's acrobatics. Its only real statement is "HEY, look at MEEEE!!!!" Which is fine if you're watching teenage girls at the Olympics. But it's not my idea of music.
Technical proficiency has a huge tradition in music. A tradition going way beyond "hey, look at me", too.
This is true for almost all styles of music.
Old 1 week ago
  #828
Gear Nut
 
froleich's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattpyter View Post
This is a great guitarist:

http://stephenwake.bandcamp.com/albu...-celtic-guitar

dude even has the tabs AND sheet music to accompany his release of incredible arrangements. Should we accept anything less from a "great guitarist?"

He's very good at what he does. The problem is, it's a pointless art.
Old 1 week ago
  #829
Gear Head
 
Sabovic Adis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by eternalsound View Post
Technique? Style? Writing? Showmanship? Looks? Uses tube amps? Uses sims? What?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdiddy View Post
You have to be a slave to the song at hand and give it nothing more and nothing less than it needs.
This!
Gerat gutarist should be able to read=>play what's writen - like DA converter.

Also Spandex.
Old 1 week ago
  #830
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by froleich View Post
He's very good at what he does. The problem is, it's a pointless art.
writing/reading is a pointless art to trash musicians; literacy allows you to comprehend patterns and understand the pitfalls of repetition in a single glance, and most musicians today sound like broken records because of their illiteracy and lack of experience in writing/reading.
Old 1 week ago
  #831
Gear Nut
 
froleich's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattpyter View Post
writing/reading is a pointless art to trash musicians; literacy allows you to comprehend patterns and understand the pitfalls of repetition in a single glance, and most musicians today sound like broken records because of their illiteracy and lack of experience in writing/reading.
Interesting. I didn't consider all that.
Old 1 week ago
  #832
Gear Guru
 
henryrobinett's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattpyter View Post
writing/reading is a pointless art to trash musicians; literacy allows you to comprehend patterns and understand the pitfalls of repetition in a single glance, and most musicians today sound like broken records because of their illiteracy and lack of experience in writing/reading.
Thank you. I think reading and writing music is very important. I won’t say that you have to able to read to be a great guitarist. That’d be silly. There are so many. But FOR ME to be a great guitarist reading is up there in high importance. If I find out a great guitarist can’t read, that’s kind of a black mark. Sorry.

And reading organizes musical thoughts, as you said patterns, substructures. Even the way bars are organized, subdivisions. Seeing harmonies. The organization of enharmonic equivalence related to keys. I would be a far different player if I couldn’t read, and I don’t think I’d have been better.
Old 1 week ago
  #833
Gear Head
 
Sabovic Adis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
Thank you. I think reading and writing music is very important. I won’t say that you have to able to read to be a great guitarist. That’d be silly. There are so many. But FOR ME to be a great guitarist reading is up there in high importance. If I find out a great guitarist can’t read, that’s kind of a black mark. Sorry.

And reading organizes musical thoughts, as you said patterns, substructures. Even the way bars are organized, subdivisions. Seeing harmonies. The organization of enharmonic equivalence related to keys. I would be a far different player if I couldn’t read, and I don’t think I’d have been better.
Why omit? What, you don't know music unless you hear it?
There's a difference between music and sound, between note and tone, between guitarist and a rock star: the former is a worker, the latter is fake af!
Old 1 week ago
  #834
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henryrobinett's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabovic Adis View Post
Why omit? What, you don't know music unless you hear it?
There's a difference between music and sound, between note and tone, between guitarist and a rock star: the former is a worker, the latter is fake af!
I don't know what you mean by "why omit."

Listen, you are welcome to your opinion, as am I. I think of great musicians as fully accomplished across the boards. I read and write notation and this has helped me greatly. I know some fantastic guitarists - technically mind blowing and creative. But the fact that they don't read is FOR ME - a problem. I can greatly admire their artistry. But it's a problem. They have greatly limited themselves in what they can play and with whom.

The difference between music and sound. Yes, of course. I don't know what you're saying here and how it relates to what you quoted of me.
Old 1 week ago
  #835
Gear Head
 
Sabovic Adis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
I don't know what you mean by "why omit."
Well, if you're not saying it you're omiting it. That's what I meant.

Quote:
Listen, you are welcome to your opinion, as am I. I think of great musicians as fully accomplished across the boards. I read and write notation and this has helped me greatly. I know some fantastic guitarists - technically mind blowing and creative. But the fact that they don't read is FOR ME - a problem. I can greatly admire their artistry. But it's a problem. They have greatly limited themselves in what they can play and with whom.

The difference between music and sound. Yes, of course. I don't know what you're saying here and how it relates to what you quoted of me.
For me too, and that's why I don't call them gutarists, but players. They only can play - with themselves.
Hate'em...
Old 1 week ago
  #836
Gear Nut
 
froleich's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by froleich View Post
How was Hendrix? He's one of my fav's.
Oh really? That's awesome. Thanks!



Old 1 week ago
  #837
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabovic Adis View Post
Why omit? What, you don't know music unless you hear it?
There's a difference between music and sound, between note and tone, between guitarist and a rock star: the former is a worker, the latter is fake af!
Since I read but at a low level (I don't sight read with any facility) I have to ask... "When you look at sheet music notation do you hear the music in your head?" and "If so, do you hear it just as it is written or do you add the nuances that are not written out but that you think you will eventually add as color?"

My interest in this is that it should be obvious to anyone with any formal training that understanding the relationships is easier and far more informative when they are seen at the most fundamental in the same manner that Mathematics is a fundamental set of essential symbols that applies to everything.

However in the case of Music, Music, the sound and the feel, is the thing itself and notation is just symbolic. The symbols have no value without the thing itself. Furthermore unless you think military bands are the apex of great Music and musicians, I wonder how you can respect one but dismiss (even express hatred) those who only deal with the thing itself when they obviously had to exist and create first before anyone could create a symbolic representation. It feels like snobbery with blinders on for the purpose of self-aggrandizement to me. Do you really want to be "that guy"?
Old 1 week ago
  #838
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Mikhael's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Since I read but at a low level (I don't sight read with any facility) I have to ask... "When you look at sheet music notation do you hear the music in your head?" and "If so, do you hear it just as it is written or do you add the nuances that are not written out but that you think you will eventually add as color?"

My interest in this is that it should be obvious to anyone with any formal training that understanding the relationships is easier and far more informative when they are seen at the most fundamental in the same manner that Mathematics is a fundamental set of essential symbols that applies to everything.

However in the case of Music, Music, the sound and the feel, is the thing itself and notation is just symbolic. The symbols have no value without the thing itself. Furthermore unless you think military bands are the apex of great Music and musicians, I wonder how you can respect one but dismiss (even express hatred) those who only deal with the thing itself when they obviously had to exist and create first before anyone could create a symbolic representation. It feels like snobbery with blinders on for the purpose of self-aggrandizement to me. Do you really want to be "that guy"?
I read and write music. Yes, when I look through a score, I hear it in my head, and can hear various inflections I would give it. I expect that of others as well; many times I'll write out a part for keys or some instrument, if it's a unison or harmony line, or the melody has to be such-and-such. It's the easy way to get it across to others (well, if they read). However, I do expect it will be interpreted with their own style. Now, some music has those inflections included on the written page, but I prefer to let the musician make it their own, at least on my stuff. Then they're more invested in the music.
Old 1 week ago
  #839
Gear Head
 
Sabovic Adis's Avatar
A symbol IS a thing for itself, you just don't know that yet!

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Since I read but at a low level (I don't sight read with any facility) I have to ask... "When you look at sheet music notation do you hear the music in your head?" and "If so, do you hear it just as it is written or do you add the nuances that are not written out but that you think you will eventually add as color?"

My interest in this is that it should be obvious to anyone with any formal training that understanding the relationships is easier and far more informative when they are seen at the most fundamental in the same manner that Mathematics is a fundamental set of essential symbols that applies to everything.

However in the case of Music, Music, the sound and the feel, is the thing itself and notation is just symbolic. The symbols have no value without the thing itself. Furthermore unless you think military bands are the apex of great Music and musicians, I wonder how you can respect one but dismiss (even express hatred) those who only deal with the thing itself when they obviously had to exist and create first before anyone could create a symbolic representation. It feels like snobbery with blinders on for the purpose of self-aggrandizement to me. Do you really want to be "that guy"?
No, I don't hear music in my head, nor do I hear voices when I read your text - I don't have to read out loud.
Let me ask you this: when you read house, what do you think of? Can you see it? Is it big? Scary? Filthy? Nice? I think of noun. Then of syntax, sentence, pȁsus, chapter and so on. Do you think? Like, at all? Do you ever think tetrachord? How about diatonic? What about movement? How does the scale sound? What's the sound of tempo? Ever thought of that? Think you can hear music? Think again, music is soundless! And colorless, it ain't colorfull at all! It ain't even black and white. Music is black. The white, that's just the paper. Just the carrier. Does-not-compute :503.
And no, I'm not that guy, tyvm...
Old 1 week ago
  #840
Gear Nut
 
froleich's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
I don't know what you mean by "why omit."

Listen, you are welcome to your opinion, as am I. I think of great musicians as fully accomplished across the boards. I read and write notation and this has helped me greatly. I know some fantastic guitarists - technically mind blowing and creative. But the fact that they don't read is FOR ME - a problem. I can greatly admire their artistry. But it's a problem. They have greatly limited themselves in what they can play and with whom.

The difference between music and sound. Yes, of course. I don't know what you're saying here and how it relates to what you quoted of me.
I read and write notation as well but I am not a site reader. My favorite way to play is in-the-moment improvisational because it's complete freedom without bounds and constraints. Maybe it's just that I'm not into "music" so much that I would want to sit and play written music. I've never thought of myself as a "musician's" musician; instead, I'm a "rocker" as they used to call it (sounds a bit dated these days, I know).

I know a guitarist (musician's musician) that used to be in the high school band and blew some type of horn in it. He was also in many bands as a guitarist and would play anything current because he just ate it all up. He plays to this day in a country band, I think.

I think reading guitar music is for a certain type of musician that wants to be a studio musician, play in the American Idol band, or a talk show host band, etc. I personally would rather do bull-work construction than this.
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