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Kemper vs Fender Deluxe Reverb
Old 15th December 2019
  #91
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Snorktop's Avatar
 

I turn my back for a minute, and the site turns civil and productive? Wtf? Where's the useless vitriol?

Does the Cub sound how you want it live before recording? That is the first issue before you worry about recording or replacing it. How does it sound live clean? How does that compare to how it sounds recorded clean?

I'd definitely try a different distortion pedal. I've only use the old ones but I found Tube Screamers are best to enhance the natural overdrive of a loud, cranked amp, and on a clean amp, they sound thin and lame. Probably not the best for quiet applications.

Check out this site, dude rates pedals on bedroom ability. Lotta good reviews, info about bedroom recording, etc, on his blog. Dude loves Gilmour. But then who doesn't? http://www.gilmourish.com/?page_id=262

Last edited by Snorktop; 15th December 2019 at 02:15 AM..
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Old 15th December 2019
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorktop View Post
I turn my back for a minute, and the site turns civil and productive? Wtf? Where's the useless vitriol?

Does the Cub sound how you want it live before recording? That is the first issue before you worry about recording or replacing it. How does it sound live clean? How does that compare to how it sounds recorded clean?

I'd definitely try a different distortion pedal. I've found Tube Screamers are best to enhance the natural overdrive of a loud, cranked amp, and on a clean amp, they sound thin and lame. Probably not the best for quiet applications.

Check out this site, dude rates pedals on bedroom ability. Lotta good reviews, info about bedroom recording, etc, on his blog. Dude loves Gilmour. But then who doesn't? http://www.gilmourish.com/?page_id=262
I'm not a fan of my amp. Very thin sounding cleans and just bad distortion. Sounds worse recorded though. For clean, recorded sound is not crazy different than live sound. Just bit boxier. For overdive, bigger difference between live and recorded. You're right about the pedal, it doesn't add much. Thank you.

This is the amp. But my clean recordings don't sound this clear for sure. (1:05)
Old 15th December 2019
  #93
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Originally Posted by Zasterz View Post
I can’t understand choosing a sim over a tube amp for your main rig, especially for recording. Yes I use sims in Logic for practicing, say, or sometimes for a particular vibe on a track, but beyond that– a sim makes sense to me when the alternative is a $12,000 Jupiter 8 or a $20,000 Neumann U47, but real tube amps are plentiful and can be found for a few hundred dollars. Comparing the choice to, like, a Neve console as a commenter did upthread– huh? Why forego the pleasures of the beautiful response you get from a tube amp if it’s not cheaper or even that much more convenient? Maintenance? You can get tubes for ten bucks overnight from Amazon. Weight for lugging around live, ok maybe. But for recording? I don’t get it!
100W Marshall Plexi's or Hiwatt DR103 with half or full stack. Yes, you can buy them. But recording them outside of a studio is near impossible unless you live on a farm. Too loud to play at out gigs. And for amps of genres that you may not always need (like a Rectifier for one song that's also too loud) an amp sim makes sense.

Not sure what amps you're thinking about, but any good tube amp is more than a few hundred dollars. You get what you pay for.
Old 15th December 2019
  #94
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Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Yeah, low gain crunch is pretty much like the litmus test of amps (and obviously sims as well).
Maybe you should check out IKMMs Amplitube Fender collection. They're pretty well received, from all I know.
Tried them and wasn't impressed; tried their Princeton Reverb vs. my 77 PR and 74 Princeton, and that tone wasn't there. Now, I'm lucky that I bought the Princeton for $250 18 years ago on eBay and the Princeton Reverb for $450 from Marina Music 14 years ago - those days are gone...
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Old 15th December 2019
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nedorama View Post
Not sure what amps you're thinking about, but any good tube amp is more than a few hundred dollars. You get what you pay for.
I have expensive amps and I have cheaper amps. I can get a decent recorded sound out of a $90 Monoprice amp (maybe add $40 for a speaker upgrade.) I have a $400 Supro 5w that sounds huge recorded. You can definitely get great recorded tones from cheaper amps. Even a DRRI is like $800. I wouldn’t spend money for an imitation of that in order to save a few bucks if that was the amp I wanted.
Old 15th December 2019
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zasterz View Post
No I mostly use Guitar Rig, and I like it and have used it on records for particular tones.
Well, Guitar Rig has fallen extremely short during its last incarnations, too.
Quite, well, "amusing" that you seem to judge about amp sims based on these two. You own it to yourself to at least try out S-Gear and maybe the Plini ones. Or even some of the free offerings around. Depending on your taste, they will blow both the Logic amps and GR away.
Old 15th December 2019
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madseason View Post
I should take a look at the line6. Might consider Helix over Kemper since it's more affordable.
Don't take my word for it, try it for yourself. Helix Native has a trial and the hardware version can be found in many shops. There's also HX Stomp, offering the same modeling but reduced DSP power and less hardware features. For home usage it's every bit as sufficient. But as said, you need to try it out first.
Old 15th December 2019
  #98
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Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
But you already knew that, right?
Of course.
So, do you think I somehow manage to listen to my amp sim sounds un-amplified?
Obviously not. So my chain of an ampsim and a PA, monitor or headphones following is every bit amplifying my guitar.
Old 15th December 2019
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
You own it to yourself to at least try out S-Gear and maybe the Plini ones. Or even some of the free offerings around. Depending on your taste, they will blow both the Logic amps and GR away.
But why? I’m fortunate in that I can have pretty much any amp I’d want. Anything I need badly enough to want to emulate I would just opt for the original. Not until tube amp makers are lining up to emulate the tones produced by digital amps would I be interested. And, like I said, I like Guitar Rig fine and have used it on an album where people are like “how did you get that amazing tone?!” and they have no idea it's a sim, so I’m not knocking it– you are.

There’s way a tube responds to you that’s in the experience, in the behavior of the amp, not in the recorded sound. My playing itself- even when using Guitar Rig- my ability to procure various tones out of my fingers and my sensibility has been formed over years of interactions with vacuum tubes. I prefer the experience just like I prefer the experience of interacting with analog synthesizers versus digital emulations. This has nothing to do with whether anyone can identify which recorded tone is which when A/B’d. Same with an acoustic piano vs a sampled piano. Obviously this conversation has been repeated ad nauseam on this site and I’m not interested in getting into it again.

Bottom line: If you prefer the sim experience then that’s what you should use. If you’re using a sim to emulate an experience you wish was real and the real experience is not actually all that hard to make happen, I’d suggest holding out for what you really want. That’s all.
Old 15th December 2019
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madseason View Post
I'm not a fan of my amp. Very thin sounding cleans and just bad distortion. Sounds worse recorded though. For clean, recorded sound is not crazy different than live sound. Just bit boxier. For overdive, bigger difference between live and recorded. You're right about the pedal, it doesn't add much. Thank you.

This is the amp. But my clean recordings don't sound this clear for sure. (1:05)
I really suggest, before throwing money at a gear purchase, seeing what you can get out of your current set up with mic positions, gain structure, eq etc. Is your mic at the cone center by chance? A few inches towards the edge or changing the angle could be all it takes to go from crap to something decent. Or you might be distorting your preamp, try lowering the gain (your interface has preamps in it even if you don’t have a standalone preamp.) If you experiment a bunch you will learn what you really need. It may not be what you think!
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Old 15th December 2019
  #101
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nedorama View Post
Not sure what amps you're thinking about, but any good tube amp is more than a few hundred dollars. You get what you pay for.
That's always going to be sort of true but it is also always going to be relative. One great example is that even just 10 years ago most cheap guitars sucked. Today even new guitars only costing 200 bux (equivalent to 50 bux at the most in vintage years gone by) are very decent.

Obviously, or it should be, used tube amps are reasonably available that are stage worthy. Most larger online stores advertise hundreds of brand name items at or around 200 bux at any given time of which at least tens of units are actually stage worthy.

Last year I bought a Monoprice 1x12 1 watt/15 watt combo for about $160.00 USD delivered mainly just to see what was even possible at that price and I was amazed. It is capable of gigging but I'd prefer two of them for Wet/Dry and a failsafe but that's still little more than 300 bux for 30 watts and 2x12s. I'd play out with that anywhere even though my go-to amps are vintage or designed and built by me and even though I don't like PCB amps much at all. It's easily worth twice as much as evidenced by the climbing price since a year ago, but still as of today well under $300 and that's new and very nicely warrantied.

It is by no means impossible to get a decent gigging or recording tube amp for around 200 bux, used or new.
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Old 15th December 2019
  #102
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by madseason View Post
I'm not a fan of my amp. Very thin sounding cleans and just bad distortion. Sounds worse recorded though. For clean, recorded sound is not crazy different than live sound. Just bit boxier. For overdive, bigger difference between live and recorded. You're right about the pedal, it doesn't add much. Thank you.

This is the amp. But my clean recordings don't sound this clear for sure. (1:05)
For thicker cleans can you play with the mids controls to get more full sound? If the amp does not have a mid control, you may be able to achieve that by using a boost/overdrive to do it with or an inexpensive eq pedal. Go for small shifts, not too much. That can be a cheap way to get the sound you are after.
For overdrive, there is a tendency to always use too much drive, this thins the sound and makes it fizzy. Have you tried to use less drive? My mentor used to keep repeating for me to dial what i think is just enough gain and then half that. He was usually right.
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Old 15th December 2019
  #103
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guavadude's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by madseason View Post
I'm not a fan of my amp. Very thin sounding cleans and just bad distortion. Sounds worse recorded though. For clean, recorded sound is not crazy different than live sound. Just bit boxier. For overdive, bigger difference between live and recorded. You're right about the pedal, it doesn't add much. Thank you.

This is the amp. But my clean recordings don't sound this clear for sure. (1:05)
Nothing against this guy but this is not a good recording. It sounds like a 57 going into an interface with poor gain staging.
Have you heard this demo? Much better, sounds useable but it is an EL-84 amp and I think that's what you're hearing.
https://youtu.be/02FGGTxArj8

Bright and chimey (the polite word for bright) is what you're going to get out of EL-84s. To me, the bigger the tubes the bigger the tone and from those other references you posted, you might be more into 6L6s or 6V6s like the Deluxe has. But as you can hear in the demo, you should be able to get a good recorded tone out of your amp. If your recordings don't sound as good, then you know it's something in the way you're tracking.

Try using the SM7 and 57 at the same time either right next to each other, and be sure to line up the capsules (take the foam off the SM7 to see it) or try one on each speaker off center of the cone. Phase alignment is a big part of getting a great sound when using multiple mics.

The Tubescreamer should help...it sure helped SRV! Set the drive all the way off, crank the volume up and tone to taste. It should add some nice mids to the sound. If you weren't in an apartment it would be easier. It's hard to record an amp sitting right on top of it while engineering. Stick it in a large closet if you can.

The '68 Deluxe reissue is a great sounding new amp if you go that route. Life is short, punt that Laney if you don't dig it.
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Old 15th December 2019
  #104
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by guavadude View Post
Nothing against this guy but this is not a good recording. It sounds like a 57 going into an interface with poor gain staging.
Have you heard this demo? Much better, sounds useable but it is an EL-84 amp and I think that's what you're hearing.
https://youtu.be/02FGGTxArj8

Bright and chimey (the polite word for bright) is what you're going to get out of EL-84s. To me, the bigger the tubes the bigger the tone and from those other references you posted, you might be more into 6L6s or 6V6s like the Deluxe has. But as you can hear in the demo, you should be able to get a good recorded tone out of your amp. If your recordings don't sound as good, then you know it's something in the way you're tracking.

Try using the SM7 and 57 at the same time either right next to each other, and be sure to line up the capsules (take the foam off the SM7 to see it) or try one on each speaker off center of the cone.

The Tubescreamer should help...it sure helped SRV! Set the drive all the way off, crank the volume up and tone to taste. It should add some nice mids to the sound. If you weren't in an apartment it would be easier. It's hard to record an amp sitting right on top of it while engineering. Stick it in a large closet if you can.

The '68 Deluxe reissue is a great sounding new amp if you go that route.
Tubescreamer is there to tame (tighten) the bottom end. Introducing it will make the sound brighter and sizzlier. SRV used fender amps which have a kinda woolly bottom end when driven. The same with many people using it with Dual-Rec's - tames the funny bottom end.
SM7 and the 57 are not too dissimilar. You will get a slightly fuller sound with the SM7 but not much. You need to get it right at the sourse. A good speaker helps alot there. Doesn't have to be very expensive either. Have a look at the WGS range. Hemp speakers help dumpen the brightness and give you a better mid-range representation
Many small amps from say Orange or Mesa with el84 power section are far from bright and sizzly. Cant say about his amp - I have zero experience with those.
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Old 15th December 2019
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guavadude View Post
The '68 Deluxe reissue is a great sounding new amp if you go that route.
Yes! I have this amp and because of the Custom channel which has the “Bassman tone stack”, you can get a lot of different tones out of it. You can also jumper the channels and mix them together unlike most DRs.
Old 15th December 2019
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guavadude View Post
Life is short, punt that Laney if you don't dig it.
This!
I'm all for getting the most out of whatever equipment, but in case I'd be playing an amp I wouldn't like, I'd have no fun, would be less inspired, would play less. Doesn't get much worse.
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Old 15th December 2019
  #107
Guys, he stated untreated room, that’s his first and foremost thing to fix. And yes a Kemper will have many profiles that sound better than the setup he describes.

The thing is how dedicated are you to the job of recording? A Kemper will make things a lot easier and deliver great tones and good feel with minimal effort While providing you with access to a massive array of amps and other guitarists and engineers expertise in the profiles they have made. If you instead want to go the tube amp route then merely changing your amp is not going to be enough. First you should treat that room, this is something you should do no matter what because it affects your monitoring too. Next your mic locker could do with some help, the classic 57/58 isn’t so much a great sound as a known quantity, boxy is how I’d describe it, this works in a mix for classic rock but you may just hate that tone or want a wider palette in which case more mics and mic preamps is the way to go, that’s it’s own Pandora’s box of GAS to follow but there are lots of articles out there on the options, I like a e906 up close and a nice phantom powered LDC a little further back, you could have all sorts of tastes. Then finally you get to the amp and cab. It’s actually the cab that’s more important. Different speakers and enclosures deliver radically different tones from the same amp. If you’re using a combo then pay attention to the speaker in there, chances are if you dislike the sound of what you’ve got you won’t like the sound of other combos with the same speaker (though the speaker will change with age). Recoding technique will matter too of course, you don’t need to push an amp hard to get good tones but it helps if it’s not too quiet, this may or may not upset your neighbors or family.

Recording a real amp can be a lot of fun and a very creative process, it can with experience be a nice quick and easy thing too. But how willing are you to learn and spend on what’s necessary to achieve this, or the exact tone you’ve got going on in your own head?

Upgrading your amp may make guitar playing more fun, but it’s all the other stuff that makes a good recording. That’s why people go to studios rather than expecting to get studio quality recording and production at home.

A sim meanwhile delivers all of that in a single box and your problems become more ones of tone selection. Some modern sims like the Kemper even have the option of a power amp built in for when you want to simply play as a normal amp through a guitar cab. For me I stopped buying real amps after I got the Kemper because there was no point. It does it better than I could. And yes it takes single coils great.
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Old 15th December 2019
  #108
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I too like the joyo ac american mentioned in post 22. Sounds even better through an ir pedal. I use the nux solid studio and got very good results out of both the new redwirez irs and also the farfield irs mentioned in the gargantuan posts on gear page.
Old 15th December 2019
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie View Post
Guys, he stated untreated room, that’s his first and foremost thing to fix. And yes a Kemper will have many profiles that sound better than the setup he describes.

The thing is how dedicated are you to the job of recording? A Kemper will make things a lot easier and deliver great tones and good feel with minimal effort While providing you with access to a massive array of amps and other guitarists and engineers expertise in the profiles they have made. If you instead want to go the tube amp route then merely changing your amp is not going to be enough. First you should treat that room, this is something you should do no matter what because it affects your monitoring too. Next your mic locker could do with some help, the classic 57/58 isn’t so much a great sound as a known quantity, boxy is how I’d describe it, this works in a mix for classic rock but you may just hate that tone or want a wider palette in which case more mics and mic preamps is the way to go, that’s it’s own Pandora’s box of GAS to follow but there are lots of articles out there on the options, I like a e906 up close and a nice phantom powered LDC a little further back, you could have all sorts of tastes. Then finally you get to the amp and cab. It’s actually the cab that’s more important. Different speakers and enclosures deliver radically different tones from the same amp. If you’re using a combo then pay attention to the speaker in there, chances are if you dislike the sound of what you’ve got you won’t like the sound of other combos with the same speaker (though the speaker will change with age). Recoding technique will matter too of course, you don’t need to push an amp hard to get good tones but it helps if it’s not too quiet, this may or may not upset your neighbors or family.

Recording a real amp can be a lot of fun and a very creative process, it can with experience be a nice quick and easy thing too. But how willing are you to learn and spend on what’s necessary to achieve this, or the exact tone you’ve got going on in your own head?

Upgrading your amp may make guitar playing more fun, but it’s all the other stuff that makes a good recording. That’s why people go to studios rather than expecting to get studio quality recording and production at home.

A sim meanwhile delivers all of that in a single box and your problems become more ones of tone selection. Some modern sims like the Kemper even have the option of a power amp built in for when you want to simply play as a normal amp through a guitar cab. For me I stopped buying real amps after I got the Kemper because there was no point. It does it better than I could. And yes it takes single coils great.
I'm pretty serious about recording. It's a dream.

You're absolutely right. I should definitely treat my room, get a preamp, better mics. All I can do is to go step by step slowly. Treating the room is probably the first thing I should do. But even after treating it, I won't have good mics and pres for a while. That's why I thought Kemper could speed up the process for me. But if a small fender tube amp in not great recording conditions will still sound better than a Kemper, there's no point.

Thanks a lot for the answer.
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Old 15th December 2019
  #110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorktop View Post
I turn my back for a minute, and the site turns civil and productive? Wtf? Where's the useless vitriol?
It gets boring. And it's a huge waste of time.
Old 15th December 2019
  #111
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deng's Avatar
Aye!

Sims to the left of me, amps to the right
Here I am, stuck in the middle with you



Well, I don't know why I came here tonight
I got the feeling that something ain't right
I'm so scared in case I fall off my chair,
And I'm wondering how I'll get down those stairs

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right,
Here I am, stuck in the middle with you.
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Old 15th December 2019
  #112
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Originally Posted by madseason View Post
But if a small fender tube amp in not great recording conditions will still sound better than a Kemper, there's no point.

Thanks a lot for the answer.
Imho Kemper sounds better most of the times. Bad acoustics lessen the sound quality even when close micing.
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Old 15th December 2019
  #113
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enorbet2's Avatar
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Originally Posted by tenderboy View Post
Imho Kemper sounds better most of the times. Bad acoustics lessen the sound quality even when close micing.
You do realize, don't you, that virtually every great recording you cut your teeth on was engineered by checking the mix in at least 2 if not more environments including awesome studio monitors, small, sort of cheapo speakers, and headphones, right? Ultimately it has to sound good "in the air". It seems to me missing a step if that is not considered, let alone experienced, regardless of the source.

Now more than ever I'm wishing I had a quality recording I made in my little (compared to room size) isobox. The recording I posted was not at all clean in any sense of that word where one can hear how even heavily restrictive acoustics can be negligible when close mic'ing. They aren't always, but they can be and fairly easily and cheaply. Breaking up standing waves is a huge proportion of such treatment and only requires treating 3 surfaces, 2 walls and either ceiling or floor... not rocket surgery.
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Old 15th December 2019
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenderboy View Post
Imho Kemper sounds better most of the times. Bad acoustics lessen the sound quality even when close micing.
I would totally agree. Unless you jump through quite some hoops in terms of isolation (or getting rid of your neighbours) plus aquiring some additional gear (mics, pedals, whatever), there's no way to even get close to what a Kemper has on offer within a modest homebased setup, even if the analog afficionados will never get tired of telling you other things.
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Old 15th December 2019
  #115
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enorbet2's Avatar
For cryin' out loud, Sascha, why are you still harping on this perception that you are one of the privileged few who really gets it and everybody else is just a tard? John Eppstein posted an excellent post regarding the great variable effect of just altering guitar volume control )or pup selection) and how that is part of a complete feedback system that changes (in a moderately predictable manner) that even a Kemper cannot profile. I posted on the other end, the speaker amplifier connection and how that similarly changes with signal and environment which also cannot be profiled by any sim/modeler/profiler. Some musicians love that dynamic and only tube amps deliver it, at least so far. If you don't love that, that's cool, but kindly stop being such a dismissive, overbearing bonehead about it.for those who do. Geez!
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Old 15th December 2019
  #116
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Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
You do realize, don't you, that virtually every great recording you cut your teeth on was engineered by checking the mix in at least 2 if not more environments including awesome studio monitors, small, sort of cheapo speakers, and headphones, right? Ultimately it has to sound good "in the air". It seems to me missing a step if that is not considered, let alone experienced, regardless of the source.

Now more than ever I'm wishing I had a quality recording I made in my little (compared to room size) isobox. The recording I posted was not at all clean in any sense of that word where one can hear how even heavily restrictive acoustics can be negligible when close mic'ing. They aren't always, but they can be and fairly easily and cheaply. Breaking up standing waves is a huge proportion of such treatment and only requires treating 3 surfaces, 2 walls and either ceiling or floor... not rocket surgery.
I just know that my guitarsound on the albums I produce sound way better since I started to use a kemper. Before I used various tube amps in my (treated, but not professionally treated) music room with some mics (Shure 57, Shure SM7, Audio Technica 4060) and a Great River and some other preamps.

And I am much faster when composing (and recording along the way) and switch from baritone guitar, to bass, to fender rhodes to a Strat like Framus and back to the rhodes and then add some baritone. MUCH faster. And always with the right tone.
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Old 16th December 2019
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
For cryin' out loud, Sascha, why are you still harping on this perception that you are one of the privileged few who really gets it and everybody else is just a tard? John Eppstein posted an excellent post regarding the great variable effect of just altering guitar volume control )or pup selection) and how that is part of a complete feedback system that changes (in a moderately predictable manner) that even a Kemper cannot profile. I posted on the other end, the speaker amplifier connection and how that similarly changes with signal and environment which also cannot be profiled by any sim/modeler/profiler. Some musicians love that dynamic and only tube amps deliver it, at least so far. If you don't love that, that's cool, but kindly stop being such a dismissive, overbearing bonehead about it.for those who do. Geez!
Yeah, geez, too true!
I have replied to Johns nonsense already. Feel free to read it or don't.
Old 16th December 2019
  #118
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Do a test yourself. Close-mic your amp (1” from grille) in the bathroom and track it then try the same position a closet or carpeted room and play the same thing. See if it made much difference. Treatment shtreament. People here are crazy— “Oh noooo it’s impossible to record a tube amp unless the stars align perfectly and you have a multi-million dollar studio with a Neve console!” Lol.
Old 16th December 2019
  #119
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Originally Posted by Zasterz View Post
“Oh noooo it’s impossible to record a tube amp unless the stars align perfectly and you have a multi-million dollar studio with a Neve console!” Lol.
No one said that.
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Old 16th December 2019
  #120
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck View Post
Yeah, geez, too true!
I have replied to Johns nonsense already. Feel free to read it or don't.
If you actually imagine John's post, or more accurately, the subject of that post - the interactive nature of analog gear with numerous feedback loops affecting response is nonsense, then you just have very little understanding how they actually work. What's sad, is that implies that if you ever even experienced it, it whizzed right through you with zero perception or retention, just like a neutrino.... and really, that's just fine but you should realize that while it is of no importance to you, it is to others and is not mysticism or bias, it's Art meets Science.

Incidentally this is not meant as a flame of any sort. It happens to all of us because of how we train our brains, whether on purpose or by happenstance, as to what things are important to perceive and what can be safely ignored. It's why we perceive bass growing louder disproportionately to the rest of the spectrum.. It's why some Asian speaking peoples substitute "l" for "r" and why Westerners can't distinguish the difference between two different words in most pitch based languages. It's why some "acoustic electric" players love compression while others hate it. Neither holds a monopoly on "right" or "better", despite your myopic protests to the contrary.

And truth be told, even myopia has a place in Art. it creates extreme focus and tends to go hand in hand with passionate compulsion. It's just ugly in conversation and debate.
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