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Going cabless
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1
Gear Head
 

Going cabless

For various reasons I'm thinking of getting rid of my tube amp + cab combo and going full cabless: less space taken, less weight to lug around (I don't have or intend to get a car), ability to play without bothering housemates, ability to get a line level signal without micing the cab...

I have researched the options a bit and the current combo I'm thinking of going with is Victory V4 Countess (since I love my V30) and Torpedo Cab M. For anyone who has gone a similar route, what are your experiences both for studio and live use? Anything I should take into consideration if I make the switch, aside from losing the feeling of a cab blasting directly at my ears at 100dB? Any other options I should consider? I don't need to hear that this is blasphemous, but any constructive feedback is welcome

I did consider the option of just buying a loadbox and a cab sim, but switching from an amp head to a preamp pedal + power amp / cab sim pedal saves both money and space.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #2
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Mikhael's Avatar
 

I'm doing it, and it works fine. But I went a slightly different route, using a Pearce for the preamp, and an old ADA MicroCab that I modified. With some other junk...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #3
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grannis's Avatar
I did the same about 3 years ago and do not regret it. I use the AMT Pangaea CP100-FX after the preamp - cheaper and more effects than anything on the market back then.
Vital to test your patches at PA volumes if you plan to use them live. Clean tones can be a bit spiky without a speaker, so I tend to have tubescreamer on low on most of the time that smooths them out nicely.
Shop around for IRs - some will suit your needs better than others
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by grannis View Post
Vital to test your patches at PA volumes if you plan to use them live. Clean tones can be a bit spiky without a speaker, so I tend to have tubescreamer on low on most of the time that smooths them out nicely.
Shop around for IRs - some will suit your needs better than others
Good tips, thanks! Actually I have a nice collection of IRs already since I have been using amp sims when I need to record or can’t play through the cab for loudness reasons. 3Sigma and Celestion have some nice ones.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #5
Gear Nut
 

constructive feedback is what you'll be missing! you won't be able to get any feedback to work into your sound! I like being on the edge so you get closer to your speakers you get a bit of feedback! Good for show and sound. Then use your mic stand for a few slide moves! ala Hendrix
Old 2 weeks ago
  #6
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grannis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkuchar View Post
constructive feedback is what you'll be missing! you won't be able to get any feedback to work into your sound! I like being on the edge so you get closer to your speakers you get a bit of feedback! Good for show and sound. Then use your mic stand for a few slide moves! ala Hendrix
I can get feedback from the PA even when it’s facing away from me. To make it louder I move towards the audience rather than towards a back line, which I think is kinda cool
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by grannis View Post
I can get feedback from the PA even when it’s facing away from me. To make it louder I move towards the audience rather than towards a back line, which I think is kinda cool
Feedback from the PA isn't really the same thing, since on a guitar rig all the sound is coming from one speaker. On a PA the bass, mid, and treble are coming out of separate drivers so you don't get a smooth transition between ranges. And if you're getting guitar feedback off the PA you must be really blasting the audience and playing hell with the soundman's ability to balance the band.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #8
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grannis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Feedback from the PA isn't really the same thing, since on a guitar rig all the sound is coming from one speaker. On a PA the bass, mid, and treble are coming out of separate drivers so you don't get a smooth transition between ranges. And if you're getting guitar feedback off the PA you must be really blasting the audience and playing hell with the soundman's ability to balance the band.
This is about the most ridiculous post I’ve seen. The arrogance and ignorance is breathtaking
Old 2 weeks ago
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by grannis View Post
This is about the most ridiculous post I’ve seen. The arrogance and ignorance is breathtaking
Interesting - it appears that your offensive, unfounded and off topic ad-hominem attack has already been reported to moderation by somebody else.

It's also incorrect. I can only assume that you do not use acoustic feedback as a feature in your playing, nor have you worked closely with someone who does.

However, what I said has been a recognized fact among such players for a long, long time.

Way back in 1980 I was working on the 1980 Black and Blue tour, with Black Sabbath and BOC headlining. Since most of the stages were pretty deep Tony was using a wedge up front to get his guitar feedback/sustain without leaving the front of the stage. Most people probably didn't notice or think much about it, but if you were paying attention it was quite obviously not the standard Martin Audio wedge used everywhere else onstage. That's because it wasn't - it was a purpose-built wedge containing two of the same speakers used in his stacks, running full range with no horn. That's because a standard monitor wedge did not behave the same as his guitar speakers and Tony tends to be somewhat picky about things like that.

Tony isn't the only guy I've seen doing something similar, either. PA cabs simply don't behave like guitar cabs, especially up close.

The physical laws of acoustics that govern the operation of speakers and interactions between speakers and guitars have not changed since 1980; they are immutable. If you don't like it, I suggest that you talk to a priest from the religious organization of your choice and have him/her take it up with the entity upstairs who controls such things - maybe he'll give you a dispensation but I seriously doubt it.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #10
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grannis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
ad-hominem attack
You're right, parts of my response could be construed that way, and i regret my lack of care and precision in the wording.

Your post, however, in which, with no empirical evidence, you assert that I must be "blasting the audience" and "playing hell with the soundman's ability to balance the band", and imply that what I am hearing is either not feedback, or at least not the right type of feedback, is fallacious and derogatory.

Your subsequent post, in which you describe how another musician, however revered he may be, achieves his personal objectives differently, does nothing to further your argument that I am, in your opinion, claiming to have achieved something that is "against the laws of acoustics".
Old 1 week ago
  #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by grannis View Post
You're right, parts of my response could be construed that way, and i regret my lack of care and precision in the wording.

Your post, however, in which, with no empirical evidence, you assert that I must be "blasting the audience" and "playing hell with the soundman's ability to balance the band", and imply that what I am hearing is either not feedback, or at least not the right type of feedback, is fallacious and derogatory.

Your subsequent post, in which you describe how another musician, however revered he may be, achieves his personal objectives differently, does nothing to further your argument that I am, in your opinion, claiming to have achieved something that is "against the laws of acoustics".
"No empirical evidence"?

Sorry - it's ALL based on years of empirical evidence.

You can't electronically fake acoustic interaction with a speaker. You just can't. It's wishful thinking.
Old 1 week ago
  #12
Gear Head
 

Well this escalated quickly...
Old 1 week ago
  #13
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Mikhael's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
"No empirical evidence"?

Sorry - it's ALL based on years of empirical evidence.

You can't electronically fake acoustic interaction with a speaker. You just can't. It's wishful thinking.
I have to agree with John, at least partially, on this. The speaker exciting the strings is an effect that has not been recreated, either with analogue or digital technology, yet. I *do* get interaction with the stage monitor, however. Is it the same? No, not precisely. But I've learned to use it, just like I learned to use the almighty Celestion 12". It's enough for me to do my job. But is it the SAME? No.

But using IEMs or headphones? No @#$% way. That interaction is missing, and it's obvious, especially using any type of rock sound. I've tried using compression to simulate the sustain, but if there's nothing exciting the strings, it still falls flat. I don't know how the people using Kempers (or whatever) with IEMs do it, unless they use excessive distortion and hope the sound from the mains will help. It would not suffice for my style and tone, I do know that.
Old 1 week ago
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
I have to agree with John, at least partially, on this. The speaker exciting the strings is an effect that has not been recreated, either with analogue or digital technology, yet. I *do* get interaction with the stage monitor, however. Is it the same? No, not precisely. But I've learned to use it, just like I learned to use the almighty Celestion 12". It's enough for me to do my job. But is it the SAME? No.
Well, as I mentioned elsewhere, Tony Iommi used/uses a wedge in front of the stage with two of the same speakers he has in his cabs. No horn, it's not intended to be a normal monitor, it's just so he can have a guitar speaker at the front of the stage.

He's not the only one, either.

That gets a lot closer than using a normal wedge.

I don't know for sure if Tony's guitar wedge runs off the monitor console or if it's slaved off one of his guitar amps.
Old 1 week ago
  #15
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grannis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
But using IEMs or headphones?
I didn't say that...

The back of our powered PA works very well though
Old 1 week ago
  #16
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilmai View Post
For various reasons I'm thinking of getting rid of my tube amp + cab combo and going full cabless: less space taken, less weight to lug around (I don't have or intend to get a car), ability to play without bothering housemates, ability to get a line level signal without micing the cab...

I have researched the options a bit and the current combo I'm thinking of going with is Victory V4 Countess (since I love my V30) and Torpedo Cab M. For anyone who has gone a similar route, what are your experiences both for studio and live use? Anything I should take into consideration if I make the switch, aside from losing the feeling of a cab blasting directly at my ears at 100dB? Any other options I should consider? I don't need to hear that this is blasphemous, but any constructive feedback is welcome

I did consider the option of just buying a loadbox and a cab sim, but switching from an amp head to a preamp pedal + power amp / cab sim pedal saves both money and space.
I do exactly this! I am also just about to buy the V4 Kraken for heavier stuff.
Old 1 week ago
  #17
Lives for gear
 
Mikhael's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by grannis View Post
I didn't say that...

The back of our powered PA works very well though
Sorry - I wasn't replying to you, it was to John, stating my experience.

Although, since you mentioned it, "The back of our powered PA works very well" for what? [not being argumentative, just an actual question; to what are you referring?]
Old 1 week ago
  #18
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grannis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
Sorry - I wasn't replying to you, it was to John, stating my experience.

Although, since you mentioned it, "The back of our powered PA works very well" for what? [not being argumentative, just an actual question; to what are you referring?]
to excite my strings - I wont call it feedback in case someone tells me it's not possible, but I get a nice crescendo harmonic on high gain tones that sounds cool.
Old 1 week ago
  #19
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audioforce's Avatar
 

As is so often the case..............., much ado about nothing.

: )
Old 5 days ago
  #20
Quote:
"The back of our powered PA works very well" for what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by grannis View Post
to excite my strings - I wont call it feedback in case someone tells me it's not possible, but I get a nice crescendo harmonic on high gain tones that sounds cool.
Well, I suppose it depends on exactly what sort of effect you're going for, but what I'm thinking of probably would not work very well off the back of a PA cab, at least not a PA cab that I'd really be interested in using. There's a good reason for this, which is that PA cabinets are designed to be directional - they project out the front and should minimize projection to the rear and sides, especially in the highs and mids.

Now, some of the powered cabs they sell these days, especially the ones with a plastic enclosure, may not have the greatest dispersion control in the world, but, like I said, I probably would not want to use something like that given a choice. My JBL SRX15s have cabs made of marine birch plywood like real touring cabs and do not project much leakage. This is especially true in the mids to highs which are horn loaded with a 90 degree dispersion pattern.

From a PA design point of view anything coming off the back and sides is (A) wasted energy and (B) may cause feedback problems with stage mics.

But if it works for you it works for you.
Old 5 days ago
  #21
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
I have to agree with John, at least partially, on this.
Yeah, . Getting feedback off the PA is not a good idea. The PA is for delivering the sound to the house, not for generating feedback from the guitar.

Players like Dweezil, use things like AX FX, and get plenty of feedback, but they are certainly not getting it through the house PA speakers, which are usually flown in arrays over the stage anyway. They are almost certainly using small wedges facing the guitar. Matter of fact, I saw Dweezil a few years ago, and he had a wedge in front of him... and... in-ear monitors.

In smaller venues this makes even less sense. You have to increase volume and guitar/speaker proximity in order to generate a feedback loop. How could you do this in a smaller or mid-sized venue through the PA. You could probably get some, but I can't imagine what would work reliably and repeatedly.

Then again, as John stated, if something works for a player, then it works. Whatever.
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