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Old 17th September 2019
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
You can. But you may as well stick a pickup on a 2x4 , string it up and eq that. Oh wait, that has been done before!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-vSZFEWHlo
Also been done on a spoon.

Would not be very enjoyable to play. I view the guitar more as a tool than an EQ.
Old 17th September 2019
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptNasty View Post
So then why do we pot coils? Answer: To prevent the coils from vibrating with the body. If youbwere correct you would get some sound from the coils with non magnetic strings.... but you don’t. You my friend have bought into the myth. There is a fair amount of peer reviewed, scientific papers on this topic. Unfortunately you have to pay to access it. So the public at large is stuck with the myths and pseudo science being peddled on the public internet.

Harmonic content is generated by leaving more energy in the string not by moving energy to the body.
No. The pickups vibrate with the body because they are attached to it. The additional vibrations in the pickup structure are dampened by introducing wax
Old 17th September 2019
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptNasty View Post
Also been done on a spoon.

Would not be very enjoyable to play. I view the guitar more as a tool than an EQ.
It is a tool. Rather a musical instrument, designed to generate a tone-full sound
Old 17th September 2019
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Widely acclaimed tone is due to the player, not the trem. Trem is just a mechanical device to achieve wild vibrations and can be tolerated because their adverse affect on the tone is less important. For a very high-gain, very compressed, delay saturated sound, "voltage" is king. There is no guitar "tone" , ts just how hot an output you get out of the guitar to drive the amp into oblivion. If that the "tone" you want - any trem will do which holds tuning.
In the far away universe of cleaner sound, where tone and dynamics matter and where trems are not used as wildly, and where over-compression is not greatly desired, it is how the vibration of the acoustic circuit is preserved which is important. And there decoupled, multi-part, high maintenance, 1lb monstrosities are not as desirable. In fact many very famous players were known to insert a chunk of wood to block those trems to increase contact between the bridge and the body.
A trem is a mechanical device attached to a restorative force that is highly biased to accept and dissipate energy. So you have now claimed in this thread that a tremolo is a tone sucker and now say tone is all about the player. You contradict yourself sir. Contrarian of the day award goes to: Yuri Kogan.
Old 17th September 2019
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptNasty View Post
So then why do we pot coils? Answer: To prevent the coils from vibrating with the body. If youbwere correct you would get some sound from the coils with non magnetic strings.... but you don’t. You my friend have bought into the myth. There is a fair amount of peer reviewed, scientific papers on this topic. Unfortunately you have to pay to access it. So the public at large is stuck with the myths and pseudo science being peddled on the public internet.

Harmonic content is generated by leaving more energy in the string not by moving energy to the body.
Actually I did A LOT of experimentation, had a bunch of guitars bult using different woods, pickups, hardware, nut materials, head-stock angles...Still have about a dozen somewhere. Call it applied science. I am an engineer by trade so my mentality is "build knowledge from experience". I also know quite a few great luthiers and acoustic scientists, who i continually have discussions with. Very knowledgeable people.
Old 17th September 2019
  #66
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
No. The pickups vibrate with the body because they are attached to it. The additional vibrations in the pickup structure are dampened by introducing wax
So string your electric with cat gut and let us know how that works for you.

If you are correct, you will hear the sound of the coils vibrating with the body. But thatbis not what happens...
Old 17th September 2019
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Actually I did A LOT of experimentation, had a bunch of guitars bult using different woods, pickups, hardware, nut materials, head-stock angles...Still have about a dozen somewhere. Call it applied science. I am an engineer by trade so my mentality is "build knowledge from experience". I also know quite a few great luthiers and acoustic scientists, who i continually have discussions with. Very knowledgeable people.
If you do not design your tests so that you verify your result and the reason you achieved that resumt your knowledge from experience is probably biased and/or flawed.
Old 17th September 2019
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptNasty View Post
A trem is a mechanical device attached to a restorative force that is highly biased to accept and dissipate energy. So you have now claimed in this thread that a tremolo is a tone sucker and now say tone is all about the player. You contradict yourself sir. Contrarian of the day award goes to: Yuri Kogan.
I cant quite understand what you are talking about. Its a modified Wiki statement which doesn't make sense. Tremolo systems ala Floyd have minimal contact with the body and unless left to move freely decouple the string from body vibration. That means it sucks tone. This should be simple enough for you to understand. There is plenty of "scientific" info about it if you google it.
Old 17th September 2019
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptNasty View Post
So string your electric with cat gut and let us know how that works for you.

If you are correct, you will hear the sound of the coils vibrating with the body. But thatbis not what happens...
Cat-gut (or any gut) is a non-magnetic material - means you are not getting any sound (unless you knock on or yell into the pickup)And if you knock on the body at the same time you will get extra "harmonics"
Old 17th September 2019
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptNasty View Post
If you do not design your tests so that you verify your result and the reason you achieved that resumt your knowledge from experience is probably biased and/or flawed.
I suggest we stop this discussion until you sober up and re-read what you wrote
Old 17th September 2019
  #71
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Cat-gut (or any gut) is a non-magnetic material - means you are not getting any sound (unless you knock on or yell into the pickup)And if you knock on the body at the same time you will get extra "harmonics"
Right because the vibration of the guitar body adds NOTHING to the pickup signal. With cat gut strings the body will still vibrate and if the coils “picked that up and generated rich harmonic content from body vibrations” as you have stated you would still get THAT part of the signal. But you don’t... because what you believe is a myth.
Old 17th September 2019
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
I suggest we stop this discussion until you sober up and re-read what you wrote
Sober up? Don’t drink at all. You may be an engineer but you do jot seem to graspmscientific method.
Old 17th September 2019
  #73
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
I cant quite understand what you are talking about. Its a modified Wiki statement which doesn't make sense. Tremolo systems ala Floyd have minimal contact with the body and unless left to move freely decouple the string from body vibration. That means it sucks tone. This should be simple enough for you to understand. There is plenty of "scientific" info about it if you google it.
Clearly. Study vibration. The tremolo springs act as a restorative force against the tension applied by the strings. When perfectly balanced the tremolo floats level and it is highly susceptible to be taken out of balance by any energy that interacts with the system (such as a vibrating string). The springs work to bring the system back into balance by dissipating the energy that has unbalanced the system... a restorative force.

So riddle me this... what do you believe absorbs the MOST energy from the strings? Thinking body, neck, bridge? You would be wrong. The entire length of the string is vibrating in a dampening medium called “air”. Most of the energy that is dissipated from a guitar string is extracted in the form of heat as the string vibrates in (and thus causes friction with) the air.
Old 17th September 2019
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptNasty View Post
Right because the vibration of the guitar body adds NOTHING to the pickup signal. With cat gut strings the body will still vibrate and if the coils “picked that up and generated rich harmonic content from body vibrations” as you have stated you would still get THAT part of the signal. But you don’t... because what you believe is a myth.
I will NOT get into THAT argument. I will leave you to your plastic/concrete/plywood guitars then. There are very many discussions of this topic on this forum. Read those.
Old 17th September 2019
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptNasty View Post
Clearly. Study vibration. The tremolo springs act as a restorative force against the tension applied by the strings. When perfectly balanced the tremolo floats level and it is highly susceptible to be taken out of balance by any energy that interacts with the system (such as a vibrating string). The springs work to bring the system back into balance by dissipating the energy that has unbalanced the system... a restorative force.
I do know how a trem works. But I also know what floating trems do to the sound
Old 17th September 2019
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
I will NOT get into THAT argument. I will leave you to your plastic/concrete/plywood guitars then. There are very many discussions of this topic on this forum. Read those.
Of course not that would show the world that you are... can you say it wr... wr... wrong.

I read academic research with mathematics, observations, and data to back them up. I do not place any credence on pseudo science mythology regarding this topic from the public internet.
Old 17th September 2019
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
I do know how a trem works. But I also know what floating trems do to the sound
This is true of most guitarists. But you do not really understand why it does what it does to the sound. But in all fairness it is you who said you did not understand what a restorative force is.
Old 17th September 2019
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptNasty View Post
Of course not that would show the world that you are... can you say it wr... wr... wrong.

I read academic research with mathematics, observations, and data to back them up. I do not place any credence on pseudo science mythology regarding this topic from the public internet.
There are a majority of very knowledgeable people (including on this forum) who would disagree with your rude statement. You remind me of a current politician who likes to use big words but in reality is just a bag of hot air
Old 17th September 2019
  #79
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
There are a majority of very knowledgeable people (including on this forum) who would disagree with your rude statement. You remind me of a current politician who likes to use big words but in reality is just a bag of hot air
And it goes personal. A sure sign that your tank is out of gas. If you believe that saying you are wrong is “rude” I don’t know what to tell you other than “ok, but you are in fact wrong”.

For me to say that much of what people think they know about the science of guitars is pseudo science mythology is not rude either. It means people are misinformed. People have been misinformed on virtually every topic to some degree throughout history. Then we study a topic scientifically and increase oir understanding of the cointerintuitive things that are really happening. How musical instruments actually work is widely accepted as a vastly under-researched area. In part because of the low potential for ROI. The research that has been done frequently references the sparse work that has been done in this field.

And “majority” is a funny way to put it. Can you quantify your “majority”? Of course not because this is all feelings and beliefs on your end. You actually have no way of knowing what the majority of people in the world believe.
Old 17th September 2019
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptNasty View Post
This is true of most guitarists. But you do not really understand why it does what it does to the sound. But in all fairness it is you who said you did not understand what a restorative force is.
You are not doing yourself any favours with your presumptuous statements. I already explained to you why a trem like that is detrimental to the tone. If you can provide an alternative argument (not modified Wiki statements which you don't understand) then I will listen to you.
Restorative force refers to the spring action in the trem design. Has nothing to do with decoupling which happens due to the trem design.Repeating that does you no favours - its plain stupid. But you don't even understand how the acoustic circuit works in a guitar, so I may just be talking to a wall.
Old 17th September 2019
  #81
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
You are not doing yourself any favours with your presumptuous statements. I already explained to you why a trem like that is detrimental to the tone. If you can provide an alternative argument (not modified Wiki statements which you don't understand) then I will listen to you.
Restorative force refers to the spring action in the trem design. Has nothing to do with decoupling which happens due to the trem design.Repeating that does you no favours - its plain stupid. But you don't even understand how the acoustic circuit works in a guitar, so I may just be talking to a wall.
Dude maybe YOU should come back to this conversation on a blue pill day. You really are in rare form even for yourself.

You really do not understand the physicsnof the guitar as well as you think you do. I have a background in this and have spent years studying and researching the topic, for the sole reason that I am curious about it.

Perhaps you could learn something instead of playing the know-it-all forum veteran who has nothing left to learn.
Old 17th September 2019
  #82
Gear Head
 

For anyone who wants a primer on pickups and how they actually work, here is a link from scholar.google.com. You will note that nowhere is body vibration even a consideration for how a pickup works. It is a consideration for the overall tone due to the frequencies that it removes from the strings... just as I have stated numerous times here. If energy is not present on the string, it will not be present in the signal produced by the pickup.

https://books.google.com/books?hl=en...page&q&f=false

This is the type of material that we actually can learn from... and this is not even a true peer reviewed white paper.
Old 17th September 2019
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptNasty View Post
For anyone who wants a primer on pickups and how they actually work, here is a link from scholar.google.com. You will note that nowhere is body vibration even a consideration for how a pickup works. It is a consideration for the overall tone due to the frequencies that it removes from the strings... just as I have stated numerous times here. If energy is not present on the string, it will not be present in the signal produced by the pickup.

https://books.google.com/books?hl=en...page&q&f=false

This is the type of material that we actually can learn from... and this is not even a true peer reviewed white paper.
How good of you to support my point.
One does not need to spend money on a random book, there is an abundance of scientific information of the theory of pickups on google.
Just a few points to consider before you get yourself into deep:
1. According to you a magnetic pickup on the sound-hole of the acoustic guitar does not benefit from the vibration of the guitar top?
2. Does the tone-wood of the electric guitar affect the tone (with the same pickup)?
3. Does cambering or a flat-top body design affect the tone?

Please young man explain that to me (use science which you keep bringing up, although you are talking like a school boy). BTW, have you read the book you are referring to?
Old 17th September 2019
  #84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
FU Tone and Sophia Trem look like Swiss watches from mid 20th century. Sophia 2:22 Deluxe Pro looks better but its for standard trem and looks heavy. FU is just a better quality Floyd?
Are there any instructions to fine-tune my floyds? Its a knife-edge, so how can you improve its tone?
So I assume you loved the looks

The guys at Killer Guitar Components can build a custom trem to your specs if you don't like how the others look, I think those guys and the guy at FU Tone started the brass sustain block trend.
Old 17th September 2019
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario-C. View Post
So I assume you loved the looks

The guys at Killer Guitar Components can build a custom trem to your specs if you don't like how the others look, I think those guys and the guy at FU Tone started the brass sustain block trend.
Aah, the good old brass sustain block :-) I remember guys inserting them under the tuno-matic bridges my guitar mentor had one on his yamaha sg (just to make the super heavy axe worthy of any real man), as sustain blocks of strat trems, brass nuts, knobs and pickguards. That (with a few months of Gym training) made the guitars sound like......
How much do they charge for the "custom look"? Will that make the trems lighter and allow for better contact with the body? Its not just the looks, you know!! (that was a very non-gearslut question, wasn't it?)

Looooved the looks of the ones on the sites!!!! They will be an embelishment on any striking weapon (sorry, axe )
Old 17th September 2019
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario-C. View Post
So I assume you loved the looks

The guys at Killer Guitar Components can build a custom trem to your specs if you don't like how the others look, I think those guys and the guy at FU Tone started the brass sustain block trend.
I like their telecaster bridges. Pricy but very pretty. Can't find any sound clips
Old 17th September 2019
  #87
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Arguing in public is so cool!!

Ok so for suggestions for the OP:
-Charvel pro mod dk24 2pt. NOT the one with the floydrose unless you want that. $1000
-A PRS S2 used is $700-$1000.
SE’s aren’t a terrible option. $5-700
ESP ltd makes some pretty great Instruments. The ec1000 les Paul style is great as well as some of their MH models.
I have an mh-250 that I love. $250-800

The PRS necks on the S2 are a little bit chunky. Not overly so like baseball bat Tele or les Paul necks. The SE’s can be a bit different.
The Charvel is very similar.
ESP necks are thinner and more comfortable for me personally.

Haven’t played a Schecter in a while although I hear geat things.

Speaking of necks, might want to look into a satin or waxed neck. Much smoother and easier play.
Old 17th September 2019
  #88
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That user has been added to my ignore list, so the off topic argument is ended. Back on topic.
Old 17th September 2019
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
The emphasized phrase seems self-contradictory. If it removes less vibrational energy it will have LESS to transfer to the rest of the guitar; it will function as a blockage to transfer.
No. The point is, because the strings are solidly clamped, and if it's a good Floyd that's well-installed, that components of the the vibrato will NOT rattle or burn energy, and that a maximum amount of energy will be transferred to the body/neck. If you want absolute maximum transfer, don't use a vibrato of any kind. But I prefer the expressive capabilities of a vibrato, so I use a Floyd where I can, because it's tuning stability and non-vibrating components (except the springs, of course).
Old 17th September 2019
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
I have about 10 Floyd equipped guitars, and don't like any of them. When you say something is done to set them up properly, is there any info on how to do it? Or does it need to go to some Merlin of the Floyd's to weave his magic on it ?
Hmm. THAT I can't really answer; there might be something written about that, I don't know. I'm just very careful about everything to do with it, like making sure the bridge sits at 90-degree angles on the pivot screws, and making DAMN SURE the witness points on the screws and the bridge plate are smooth and make maximum contact, making sure the fine-tuning assembly is tight, saddles are secure, that sort of thing. I also have a luthier here in Austin that's really good at that as well, which doesn't hurt...
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