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Workhorse guitar recommendations
Old 16th September 2019
  #31
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Actually, because they vibrate and smooth the highs (tone -sucking) such guitars won't chop your head off with treble when shredding. It also reduces the fret-buzz if ones into super low action. Another advantage, no need to deal with nut problems (change, lubricate...) cause it will last as long as the guitar...so its a preference thing rather than good-bad.
Old 16th September 2019
  #32
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Mikhael's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
:-). Really any light guitar with a suitable neck profile and the configuration I mentioned will do. Many Ibanez, ESP, Charvels... meet the spec. The only ones with a piezo bridge off the shelf i know is the Parker fly (one of my favourite guitars). Super light, super nice to play, nice piezo trem and has all the electronics specs.
Piezo bridge off-the-shelf? Godin.
Old 16th September 2019
  #33
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Fair point but the real original with just some attention to details floats and sounds MUCH better and more unique to a specific guitar since nuance is not lost so much in multiple moving parts. The reason I mentioned Kahler is because basically no matter what guitar you put them on, they will all sound the same... like a Kahler guitar..
Absolutely. A German made OFR is for me personally preferable to an FR1000 or FR2000. At the $700-1000 price point good luck finding a production guitar with a German OFR..

I have a Charvel Satchel Signature Pro-Mod DK. It is $1,399 but the upcharge is for the Fishmans and Russ’ cut. I picked up mine for $700 used on Reverb in Mint condition. It has a satin finished graphite reinforced neck, a compound fretboard radius, rolled fretboard edges, an FR1000, and Fishman Fluence Classic pickups. After some time setting it up, it plays nearly as well as my US Custom Shop guitars. All of my other guitars have German OFRs, Gotoh Floyds, or Edge tremolos, and I did put a German Floyd on it, but that was pure unadulterated elitism on my part. As were the Schallers I put on it. I also stripped and repainted the body. The matte Bengal finish looked so cheap and toylike IMO.

As for the multiple moving parts thing, you can do things like sustain block upgrades (Tungsten sustain blocks rock IMO), noiseless springs (this has a surprising effect, it eliminates the reverby resonance that raw springs can cause). There are a lot of upgrades for Floyds. The question is how much $$$ do you have and how far do you want to go? For many a sustain block swap is the ticket.

Aside from the physics of floating Fender style tremolo systems mass, weight, material, and dimensions of the tremolo bridge play a role in the transfer of energy from the strings into the tremolo system. As the footprint grows so does the propensity to absorb sympathetic vibrations. Generally speaking as the bridge weight decreases the propensity to absorb sympathetic vibrations increases. Soft bridge materials will absorb different frequencies from the string compared to hard materials. Titanium alloys provide deviations from some of these rules due to certain characteristics that the alloys exhibit.

The following is a list of upgrades I have performed on one of my OFRs and why I did it as part of an experiment I am doing:
Tungsten Sustain block - more aggressive, articulate tone
Titanium Saddles - more articulate tone, durability
Titanium Mounting Studs and Inserts - reduce transfer of vibration from the bridge to the guitar body
Noiseless Springs - eliminate Reverby noise from untreated springs
Brass tremolo claw - slightly warmer tone
Titanium string inserts - durability
Stainless saddle retainer screws - durability
Stainless string retainer screws - durability
Titanium Fine Tuner Tension plate - reduce transfer of vibration from bridge to sustain block
Titanium Sustain Block Shim - Reduce transfer of vibration from the bridge to the sustain block

If a German vs a Korean FR is a big deal, that can be remedied for about $160 after market. You still get a lot of guitar at the price point with Pro-Mod DKs.
Old 16th September 2019
  #34
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Mikhael's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Price?Many boutiques out there, some are well regarded companies (Suhr, Anderson, Melancon, Novo, Southpark and many more) if you want to spend $$$$
Plus SD pickups are very ho-ham. And Floyd is a tone-robbing piece of s**t - unless thats what you want
Boy, you're a killjoy today. Many people love SD pickups (I'm not one of them), and you're off-base on the Floyd. Maybe somebody set yours up wrong. They're no worse than any two-point vibrato, and better than a lot of them, because of the solid mounting and string locking. The vibration transfer to the body/neck is actually better.
Old 16th September 2019
  #35
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
Boy, you're a killjoy today. Many people love SD pickups (I'm not one of them), and you're off-base on the Floyd. Maybe somebody set yours up wrong. They're no worse than any two-point vibrato, and better than a lot of them, because of the solid mounting and string locking. The vibration transfer to the body/neck is actually better.
Contrary to popular myth you do not want more transfer of vibration from the strings to anywhere. Any vibration (aka energy) removed from your strings is energy that is lost from the tone of the guitar. Remember, that the signal for an electric guitar is generated by the metal string vibrating within the magnetic field created by the pickups. Don’t believe me? Put some cat gut strings on your wonderfully resonant guitar and watch as you get no signal other than microphonics. The quicker that the air, bridge, neck and body can remove energy from the strings, the greater the impact on PASSIVE sustain (the sustain a guitar exhibits when not playing through an amplifier).

Resonance in a guitar (body, bridge, neck vibrations) is actually removing specific frequencies from the strings so that the pickups cannot convert that energy into a signal. Different woods and metals are biased to different frequencies, thus the idea that mahogany is warmer, brass is warmer, maple is brighter, etc.

Resonance of guitar parts DOES NOT add frequencies to tone it removes frequencies and pickups DO NOT convert vibrations in the wood to signal. If they did it would be by causing vibrations in the coils themselves and you would get feedback of the bad kind as a result (this is precisely why modern pickups are potted... to prevent the coils from resonating with the body).

As guitarists we tend to get the result right (e.g. Mahogany causes a warmer tone), but we fail miserably in understanding the actual physics that cause this to happen. And do not get me started about how off base we are about bolt-on versus neck through designs.
Old 16th September 2019
  #36
Deleted 998abe3
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by cooker View Post
Actually, because they vibrate and smooth the highs (tone -sucking) such guitars won't chop your head off with treble when shredding. It also reduces the fret-buzz if ones into super low action. Another advantage, no need to deal with nut problems (change, lubricate...) cause it will last as long as the guitar...so its a preference thing rather than good-bad.
Are you talking about the Charvel?
Old 16th September 2019
  #37
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted 998abe3 View Post
Are you talking about the Charvel?
He is talking about floating tremolos like the Floyd Rose.
Old 16th September 2019
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted 998abe3 View Post
Are you talking about the Charvel?
As Captnasy noted, a generalization for floyds.

But about Charvel, notice they picked rather open sounding PU's. For example the neck HB they preferred is a Slash SD model rather than the 59 we keep seeing on other similar guitars.

This indicates the guitar being voiced for the bridge system among other components, which is an indication they spent time to make it sound right
Old 16th September 2019
  #39
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Mikhael's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptNasty View Post
Contrary to popular myth you do not want more transfer of vibration from the strings to anywhere. Any vibration (aka energy) removed from your strings is energy that is lost from the tone of the guitar. Remember, that the signal for an electric guitar is generated by the metal string vibrating within the magnetic field created by the pickups. Don’t believe me? Put some cat gut strings on your wonderfully resonant guitar and watch as you get no signal other than microphonics. The quicker that the air, bridge, neck and body can remove energy from the strings, the greater the impact on PASSIVE sustain (the sustain a guitar exhibits when not playing through an amplifier).

Resonance in a guitar (body, bridge, neck vibrations) is actually removing specific frequencies from the strings so that the pickups cannot convert that energy into a signal. Different woods and metals are biased to different frequencies, thus the idea that mahogany is warmer, brass is warmer, maple is brighter, etc.

Resonance of guitar parts DOES NOT add frequencies to tone it removes frequencies and pickups DO NOT convert vibrations in the wood to signal. If they did it would be by causing vibrations in the coils themselves and you would get feedback of the bad kind as a result (this is precisely why modern pickups are potted... to prevent the coils from resonating with the body).

As guitarists we tend to get the result right (e.g. Mahogany causes a warmer tone), but we fail miserably in understanding the actual physics that cause this to happen. And do not get me started about how off base we are about bolt-on versus neck through designs.
Well, actually, you WANT solid and non-vibrating transfer, so that the neck/body does what it wants to. My point was that the solid contact of a well-installed Floyd removes LESS vibrational energy (i.e., transfers more to the rest of the guitar) than a standard vibrato bridge, that's all.
Old 16th September 2019
  #40
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
Well, actually, you WANT solid and non-vibrating transfer, so that the neck/body does what it wants to. My point was that the solid contact of a well-installed Floyd removes LESS vibrational energy (i.e., transfers more to the rest of the guitar) than a standard vibrato bridge, that's all.
I personally want to minimize any loss of energy from the strings. All those vibrating components are effectively acting as multiple EQs, shaping the tone of the guitar.

I would rather shape the tone with an EQ I can control rather than have implicit and largely uncontrolled EQ’ing happening in the guitar components.

You can never completely stop it, but you can significantly reduce the energy loss to the guitar.

Now I can quite precisely create a specific and predictable guitar tone by the components that are used. But then that tone profile is static.
Old 16th September 2019
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
My point was that the solid contact of a well-installed Floyd removes LESS vibrational energy (i.e., transfers more to the rest of the guitar) than a standard vibrato bridge, that's all.
The emphasized phrase seems self-contradictory. If it removes less vibrational energy it will have LESS to transfer to the rest of the guitar; it will function as a blockage to transfer.
Old 17th September 2019
  #42
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enorbet2's Avatar
I want my guitars to sound different and have the character of their woody construction so I want some vibrational energy to be transmitted (lost) to the wood BUT I don't want any energy lost in rattles of metal parts, slop in nut slots, fret buzz, etc, audible on their own or not. Any such destructive loss will end up in the amp and speakers as loss of body and sustain. The resonant losses in the body add warmth and complexity that makes one guitar different from another. I also don't want that "sproingy" effect of spring noise so my Schecter non-locking Whammy with case-hardened knife edges is modded with foam in the spring cavities - simple, cheap, effective. My strings travel straight to the tuners over a very low friction nut with custom cut slots. It's not quite as distinctive sounding as my stopbar Les Paul, but it's decent.
Old 17th September 2019
  #43
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
I also don't want that "sproingy" effect of spring noise so my Schecter non-locking Whammy with case-hardened knife edges is modded with foam in the spring cavities - simple, cheap, effective.
Ha, I do that with the foam, too. I think I got the idea from Steve Vai, but I'm sure a lot of people (including Steve) got that idea from a lot of places.
Old 17th September 2019
  #44
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I'd probably go with something like this and not bother with the piezo part. A beater acoustic with a piezo will sound more authentic, and you probably already have one lying around anyway. Also, showing up with two guitars is value-added.
A piezo bridge will only give you an extremely poor representation of an acoustic. But blended with magnetic pickups opens up a different dimension.
Old 17th September 2019
  #45
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Have you seen/heard Suhr's new Studio amp? Wonderful blend of vintage and modern. Serious Studio amp with all the right stuff....






I don't think it's fair to write off the whole company's line. They do make more than one model, right?

I wholeheartedly agree on the Floyd and it kinda upsets me the website refers to it as "original Floyd". It is NOT! The original was non-locking, and more importantly, no fine tuners. You start adding a bunch of moving parts to the bridge and bye bye tone. That said Kahler's were worse.
I have a number of Suhr guitars and a couple of their amps - i like what they do. This amp sounds familiar - my Suhr amps do similar things other then the inbuilt load/IR thing. This of course can be added to any amp, but having individual IR on each channel makes this very versatile for live. I need to find out the price - it can be a very useful home/songwriting tool. I don't play much live at all these days.
Floyds that i have on some of my guitars I don't get along with. For example i have 2 Mayones guitars, same model, one hard-tail the other has Floyd. The tone is so different you would think they are 2 completely different guitars, the Floyd one being always a reject.. And its not just me, its the clients too, unless they NEED the trem. Problem is you cannot replace it with a different design trem :-(
Old 17th September 2019
  #46
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptNasty View Post
+1 Charvel Pro-Mod DK 24.

You get a lot of guitar for the money with the Pro-Mod line.

The whole Floyds are tone suckers thing is funny. The more weight you add to a floating tremolo, the more you stabilize it from sympathetic vibrations coming from the strings. That is why big block tremolos are considered so effective. A lot of people who use floating tremolos like the Floyds Rose get tones that are widely acclaimed so I would not place much stock in the biases of a guy or two on the internet.
Widely acclaimed tone is due to the player, not the trem. Trem is just a mechanical device to achieve wild vibrations and can be tolerated because their adverse affect on the tone is less important. For a very high-gain, very compressed, delay saturated sound, "voltage" is king. There is no guitar "tone" , ts just how hot an output you get out of the guitar to drive the amp into oblivion. If that the "tone" you want - any trem will do which holds tuning.
In the far away universe of cleaner sound, where tone and dynamics matter and where trems are not used as wildly, and where over-compression is not greatly desired, it is how the vibration of the acoustic circuit is preserved which is important. And there decoupled, multi-part, high maintenance, 1lb monstrosities are not as desirable. In fact many very famous players were known to insert a chunk of wood to block those trems to increase contact between the bridge and the body.
Old 17th September 2019
  #47
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cooker View Post
Actually, because they vibrate and smooth the highs (tone -sucking) such guitars won't chop your head off with treble when shredding. It also reduces the fret-buzz if ones into super low action. Another advantage, no need to deal with nut problems (change, lubricate...) cause it will last as long as the guitar...so its a preference thing rather than good-bad.
Or you can turn the presence down
Old 17th September 2019
  #48
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
Piezo bridge off-the-shelf? Godin.
There you go :-). And godin is more affordable too
Old 17th September 2019
  #49
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
Boy, you're a killjoy today. Many people love SD pickups (I'm not one of them), and you're off-base on the Floyd. Maybe somebody set yours up wrong. They're no worse than any two-point vibrato, and better than a lot of them, because of the solid mounting and string locking. The vibration transfer to the body/neck is actually better.
I have about 10 Floyd equipped guitars, and don't like any of them. When you say something is done to set them up properly, is there any info on how to do it? Or does it need to go to some Merlin of the Floyd's to weave his magic on it ?
Old 17th September 2019
  #50
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptNasty View Post
Contrary to popular myth you do not want more transfer of vibration from the strings to anywhere. Any vibration (aka energy) removed from your strings is energy that is lost from the tone of the guitar. Remember, that the signal for an electric guitar is generated by the metal string vibrating within the magnetic field created by the pickups. Don’t believe me? Put some cat gut strings on your wonderfully resonant guitar and watch as you get no signal other than microphonics. The quicker that the air, bridge, neck and body can remove energy from the strings, the greater the impact on PASSIVE sustain (the sustain a guitar exhibits when not playing through an amplifier).

Resonance in a guitar (body, bridge, neck vibrations) is actually removing specific frequencies from the strings so that the pickups cannot convert that energy into a signal. Different woods and metals are biased to different frequencies, thus the idea that mahogany is warmer, brass is warmer, maple is brighter, etc.

Resonance of guitar parts DOES NOT add frequencies to tone it removes frequencies and pickups DO NOT convert vibrations in the wood to signal. If they did it would be by causing vibrations in the coils themselves and you would get feedback of the bad kind as a result (this is precisely why modern pickups are potted... to prevent the coils from resonating with the body).

As guitarists we tend to get the result right (e.g. Mahogany causes a warmer tone), but we fail miserably in understanding the actual physics that cause this to happen. And do not get me started about how off base we are about bolt-on versus neck through designs.
The sound is generated by a magnetised string moving in a magnetic field. By making it a part of an acoustic circuit you are introducing other frequencies which manifest themselves as harmonics making the sound RICHer. That circuit feeding onto itself gives you better sustain (as it re-excites string vibration) and makes the sound more musical due to increasing harmonic content.
Coils move/vibrate with the body. If you use an acoustically dead body you get a boring non-musical tone which is just string vibration dying reasonably uniformly.
This has been discussed before.
Old 17th September 2019
  #51
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
Boy, you're a killjoy today. Many people love SD pickups (I'm not one of them), and you're off-base on the Floyd. Maybe somebody set yours up wrong. They're no worse than any two-point vibrato, and better than a lot of them, because of the solid mounting and string locking. The vibration transfer to the body/neck is actually better.
Not killing any joy!!
Just sharing my sad experience
Old 17th September 2019
  #52
If it's the german Floyd Rose trem once it's properly set up it stays in tune like the better than anything else out there, at least that's my experience but if you really hate standard floyds you can get one from FU Tone or a Sophia Trem which fits the Floyd Rose routing.
Old 17th September 2019
  #53
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptNasty View Post
I personally want to minimize any loss of energy from the strings. All those vibrating components are effectively acting as multiple EQs, shaping the tone of the guitar.

I would rather shape the tone with an EQ I can control rather than have implicit and largely uncontrolled EQ’ing happening in the guitar components.

You can never completely stop it, but you can significantly reduce the energy loss to the guitar.

Now I can quite precisely create a specific and predictable guitar tone by the components that are used. But then that tone profile is static.
You can shape existing tone, but you cannot introduce new frequencies/harmonics with any eq. Eq'ing string sound? How boring
Old 17th September 2019
  #54
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
I have about 10 Floyd equipped guitars, and don't like any of them. When you say something is done to set them up properly, is there any info on how to do it? Or does it need to go to some Merlin of the Floyd's to weave his magic on it ?
No different than tuning your car up really. If you think you know how to tune up the car but really don’t the car will run poorly. If you actually do know what you are doing your car will run well.

On a Floyd, there are two things that are very important: properly set tension/balance and rock solid intonation.

But yes just as people upgrade pickups and other hardware to adjust tone, the same can unsurprisingly be done for a tremolo bridge too.
Old 17th September 2019
  #55
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
You can shape existing tone, but you cannot introduce new frequencies/harmonics with any eq. Eq'ing string sound? How boring
You can subtract... which is why I want as much of that information there as possible then I CAN sculpt the sound with EQ.
Old 17th September 2019
  #56
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mario-C. View Post
If it's the german Floyd Rose trem once it's properly set up it stays in tune like the better than anything else out there, at least that's my experience but if you really hate standard floyds you can get one from FU Tone or a Sophia Trem which fits the Floyd Rose routing.
FU Tone and Sophia Trem look like Swiss watches from mid 20th century. Sophia 2:22 Deluxe Pro looks better but its for standard trem and looks heavy. FU is just a better quality Floyd?
Are there any instructions to fine-tune my floyds? Its a knife-edge, so how can you improve its tone?
Old 17th September 2019
  #57
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptNasty View Post
No different than tuning your car up really. If you think you know how to tune up the car but really don’t the car will run poorly. If you actually do know what you are doing your car will run well.

On a Floyd, there are two things that are very important: properly set tension/balance and rock solid intonation.

But yes just as people upgrade pickups and other hardware to adjust tone, the same can unsurprisingly be done for a tremolo bridge too.
Have you tried tuning a recent Mercedes? Without a fork-lift and tuning computers?
As Mario stated above there are upgrades available. But they are same knife-edge looking trems. Which does not solve the issue that it robs the guitar of its tone due to luck of contact with the body. I can get it better balanced and smoother but it would not improve the tone. Unless I'm missing something?
Old 17th September 2019
  #58
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
The sound is generated by a magnetised string moving in a magnetic field. By making it a part of an acoustic circuit you are introducing other frequencies which manifest themselves as harmonics making the sound RICHer. That circuit feeding onto itself gives you better sustain (as it re-excites string vibration) and makes the sound more musical due to increasing harmonic content.
Coils move/vibrate with the body. If you use an acoustically dead body you get a boring non-musical tone which is just string vibration dying reasonably uniformly.
This has been discussed before.
So then why do we pot coils? Answer: To prevent the coils from vibrating with the body. If youbwere correct you would get some sound from the coils with non magnetic strings.... but you don’t. You my friend have bought into the myth. There is a fair amount of peer reviewed, scientific papers on this topic. Unfortunately you have to pay to access it. So the public at large is stuck with the myths and pseudo science being peddled on the public internet.

Harmonic content is generated by leaving more energy in the string not by moving energy to the body.
Old 17th September 2019
  #59
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptNasty View Post
You can subtract... which is why I want as much of that information there as possible then I CAN sculpt the sound with EQ.
You can. But you may as well stick a pickup on a 2x4 , string it up and eq that. Oh wait, that has been done before!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-vSZFEWHlo
Old 17th September 2019
  #60
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Have you tried tuning a recent Mercedes? Without a fork-lift and tuning computers?
As Mario stated above there are upgrades available. But they are same knife-edge looking trems. Which does not solve the issue that it robs the guitar of its tone due to luck of contact with the body. I can get it better balanced and smoother but it would not improve the tone. Unless I'm missing something?
So now you try to act as if a Floyd is some uber complex piece of tech. You really are in a mood today aren’t you?
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