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Are Vintage 30 speakers in Mesa Boogie cabs made in England or in China (as of 2019)?
Old 17th September 2019
  #61
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Yeap fully agreed. I was just trying to be simplistic and more applicable to the commercially available cabs (not many go the length of building their own although it would probably yield better results). You went further with that then I did, I haven't experimented much with port dimensions (may be I should have).
The way that came about is that I was using the cast frame Celestion in the combo box but often had to add on a Thiele Small cab (similar to the Mesa 1x15) loaded with an EVM-12L for larger gigs. Playing smaller jobs I found I didn't miss the volume but I really missed the solid bottom. That got me to experimenting with how to get a more solid bottom out of the combo alone without losing the "breathe" of the open back. I tried the EVM in place of the Celestion but it lacked a lot of character the Celestion had in spades. The port I tried at first just with 1/2 inch birch plywood did a great job, so I added a bit of stiffening braces, moved the 12 to front-mounting (was required also by the EVM in that cab just to clear transformers) and it had all the mojo I desired.
Old 17th September 2019
  #62
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Mikhael's Avatar
 

My favourite cab for micing is an old ported Peavey 4x12" that I cut in half, and put a couple of G12-75 Celestions in. They work great, although it was blind luck. I run it in stereo, and mic each speaker from the center of the cab to the speaker edge. It gives me my favourite tones, but I don't think the mics hear the port. The port probably affects the response of the speakers, though. I did this about 30 years ago, not having much of a clue about what I was doing. I just got lucky. And those speakers were still made in Britain at the time (just to tie in with the subject line, however obliquely)...
Old 18th September 2019
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
The way that came about is that I was using the cast frame Celestion in the combo box but often had to add on a Thiele Small cab (similar to the Mesa 1x15) loaded with an EVM-12L for larger gigs. Playing smaller jobs I found I didn't miss the volume but I really missed the solid bottom. That got me to experimenting with how to get a more solid bottom out of the combo alone without losing the "breathe" of the open back. I tried the EVM in place of the Celestion but it lacked a lot of character the Celestion had in spades. The port I tried at first just with 1/2 inch birch plywood did a great job, so I added a bit of stiffening braces, moved the 12 to front-mounting (was required also by the EVM in that cab just to clear transformers) and it had all the mojo I desired.
So if understand correctly you created a "back port" by creating a narrow opening on the back panel?
Old 18th September 2019
  #64
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
My favourite cab for micing is an old ported Peavey 4x12" that I cut in half, and put a couple of G12-75 Celestions in. They work great, although it was blind luck. I run it in stereo, and mic each speaker from the center of the cab to the speaker edge. It gives me my favourite tones, but I don't think the mics hear the port. The port probably affects the response of the speakers, though. I did this about 30 years ago, not having much of a clue about what I was doing. I just got lucky. And those speakers were still made in Britain at the time (just to tie in with the subject line, however obliquely)...
Pics? :-)
The mics will pick up a front port abit on the side lobes if you close-mic'ing, but if positioned correctly you can minimise any faze issues
Old 18th September 2019
  #65
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
So if understand correctly you created a "back port" by creating a narrow opening on the back panel?
Specifically I made a solid back panel and added stiffening braces, since it was only 1/2 inch birch plywood, and the one at the top doubled as the "shelf" that gives the cross section a specific volume. All I wanted from it was a resonant cavity that would tighten up the bottom so it never got "farty" or "fluffy" while retaining that airy high end. Thankfully, it worked rather well. I almost never needed the extension cab ever again, and once I got the tilt-back legs I sold the extension cab.
Old 18th September 2019
  #66
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Specifically I made a solid back panel and added stiffening braces, since it was only 1/2 inch birch plywood, and the one at the top doubled as the "shelf" that gives the cross section a specific volume. All I wanted from it was a resonant cavity that would tighten up the bottom so it never got "farty" or "fluffy" while retaining that airy high end. Thankfully, it worked rather well. I almost never needed the extension cab ever again, and once I got the tilt-back legs I sold the extension cab.
Interesting
Old 4 weeks ago
  #67
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Mikhael's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Pics? :-)
The mics will pick up a front port abit on the side lobes if you close-mic'ing, but if positioned correctly you can minimise any faze issues
No, sorry, I have no pics of it. Plus, I've never posted any pictures on this board; I don't even know the methodology... :(
Old 4 weeks ago
  #68
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
No, sorry, I have no pics of it. Plus, I've never posted any pictures on this board; I don't even know the methodology... :(
Ah, you just put the text in as normal, then scroll down to Attach Files/ Manage photos, click on that and just drag the pictures into the space. Wait until they upload, and that's it.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #69
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Mikhael's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Ah, you just put the text in as normal, then scroll down to Attach Files/ Manage photos, click on that and just drag the pictures into the space. Wait until they upload, and that's it.
Well, that's just too damn easy. Maybe it was the other board I peruse that made you host pictures online and then link to them. I like a cloudless day, myself...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #70
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
Well, that's just too damn easy. Maybe it was the other board I peruse that made you host pictures online and then link to them. I like a cloudless day, myself...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #71
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
You can use multi-speaker cabs but for that style of music close-mic'ing is the main method. Meaning you select the best speaker and put the mic on that. However the other speakers in the cab bleed into the mic also, which due to different distance from the mic creates phasing. This can manifest itself with a thinner sound and loss of focus. You may like that but most people don't. The solution is to lift the cab off the floor and mic it from about 1m away - this will create a different tone. What some people do is take the grill cloth off and put the mic almost inside the cone. I don't like that as for longer wave-forms it is usually missing a peak.
You don't have those issues with a raised single speaker cab and can achieve more variation with your mic placement
I like open-back cab personally'cause yo have a more expansive tone. The closed back cabs have a "tighter" responce with an exaggerated lower mids, which many people prefer. I don't like the "LEnd enhancement" you get with ports. There is no ultimate port, a bad port will result in phasing.
Hey Yuri, I read this reply when you posted it and have just been pondering the wisdom within the last few days. I really appreciate that you described the physics reasons for why certain things sound better than others. Often times when people share a technique in audio they just give a ‘I put the mic here cause it sounds good’ sort of explanation. But when an actual physics reason for WHY something sounds good is given, that information is much more valuable in terms of becoming better as an engineer IMO. So, thank you for sharing these points.

I have noticed the open back vs closed back phenomenon you described between my open back 2x12 combo and the closed back 2x12 recto cab I had. I agree that the open back is more ‘expansive’. It seems to sound better for ropey kind of single note riffing where you want a part to sound huge. Closed back seems better to me for faster rhythmic chording.

I listened to some demos of ported 1x12 cabs online and they all sounded way too bass hyped for what I’d want in a studio situation. I will take your advice and avoid ported options.

I have never had any luck distance micing a guitar cab and using the distance mic as a core sound for a guitar. I often get good results using a distance mic and adding a delay to it to add room sound and blending it in to a close mic on the cab, but I always end up using the close mic to get the core of the sound (usually around 75% of the sound).

Any physics tips you could share about close mic positioning? You said you didn’t like to go all the way inside the cone because it cuts off the peak of longer waveforms. Care to explain more? Is there a happy middle ground for a detailed sound that is more natural than the ‘as close as possible to the speaker method’ which, though quite detailed is admittedly not a very natural way to hear a guitar?

No one I have ever heard explain their guitar close mic technique has ever given a good physics reason behind it. We all know that ‘closer to center of speaker cone is brighter, further to edge of cone is darker’, and about the proximity effect, but beyond that I’ve never heard a good rationale behind a particular guitar cab close mic strategy. If you’d care to share one, it would be greatly appreciated.

In any case, I thank you for the knowledge you have already shared.

MM
Old 4 weeks ago
  #72
Lives for gear
 
Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Moss View Post
Hey Yuri, I read this reply when you posted it and have just been pondering the wisdom within the last few days. I really appreciate that you described the physics reasons for why certain things sound better than others. Often times when people share a technique in audio they just give a ‘I put the mic here cause it sounds good’ sort of explanation. But when an actual physics reason for WHY something sounds good is given, that information is much more valuable in terms of becoming better as an engineer IMO. So, thank you for sharing these points.

I have noticed the open back vs closed back phenomenon you described between my open back 2x12 combo and the closed back 2x12 recto cab I had. I agree that the open back is more ‘expansive’. It seems to sound better for ropey kind of single note riffing where you want a part to sound huge. Closed back seems better to me for faster rhythmic chording.

I listened to some demos of ported 1x12 cabs online and they all sounded way too bass hyped for what I’d want in a studio situation. I will take your advice and avoid ported options.

I have never had any luck distance micing a guitar cab and using the distance mic as a core sound for a guitar. I often get good results using a distance mic and adding a delay to it to add room sound and blending it in to a close mic on the cab, but I always end up using the close mic to get the core of the sound (usually around 75% of the sound).

Any physics tips you could share about close mic positioning? You said you didn’t like to go all the way inside the cone because it cuts off the peak of longer waveforms. Care to explain more? Is there a happy middle ground for a detailed sound that is more natural than the ‘as close as possible to the speaker method’ which, though quite detailed is admittedly not a very natural way to hear a guitar?

No one I have ever heard explain their guitar close mic technique has ever given a good physics reason behind it. We all know that ‘closer to center of speaker cone is brighter, further to edge of cone is darker’, and about the proximity effect, but beyond that I’ve never heard a good rationale behind a particular guitar cab close mic strategy. If you’d care to share one, it would be greatly appreciated.

In any case, I thank you for the knowledge you have already shared.

MM
I'll try to keep it short as I am on a lunch break in a session. If it doesn't make sense I will try again later, more in depth.
The reason for distant mic'ing has to do with sound-staging. A mix to make sense has to be presented in a 3D space, with changing dynamics and spatial position changes. This allows for an interesting mix and a more natural presentation which allows the listener to become immersed into the mix. Spatial presentation can be achieved artificially it usually sounds fake and is therefore not suitable for many styles of music. The alternatively is to create a sound-stage in a real environment and mic the sources with a view of presenting them such in the mix.The definition can be enhanced by blending close mics in with the distant mic, minding phase effects etc.
As to the positioning of the close mics: point the mic close to the dust-cap at 90deg. Now move the mic slowly away from the dust-cap noting the amplitude of a sine-wave or a single repeating note played with the same velocity. You will notice that the sound will reduce in amplitude and then increase slightly. What you have is a sine-wave (or a complex sound) with the amplitude oscillating and diffusing at the same time as you move further away from the speaker. To get optimal sound quality you would aim to capture peak of the oscillation of the fundamental frequency. The position will depend on that frequency. If you are using a close mic and a distant one then by getting than both to hit a peak you will reduce the amount of phasing. Its more complex then that but I am at a loss to give a simpler explanation in a hurry. Perhaps someone like John can pitch in , he is pretty good at a more scientific way of presenting things without being too technical. If you need more, and no-one else explains it better I will try and do a better job tomorrow, I don't have a session then (thanks god, I need a rest)
Old 4 weeks ago
  #73
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Moss View Post
Hey Yuri, I read this reply when you posted it and have just been pondering the wisdom within the last few days. I really appreciate that you described the physics reasons for why certain things sound better than others. Often times when people share a technique in audio they just give a ‘I put the mic here cause it sounds good’ sort of explanation. But when an actual physics reason for WHY something sounds good is given, that information is much more valuable in terms of becoming better as an engineer IMO. So, thank you for sharing these points.

I have noticed the open back vs closed back phenomenon you described between my open back 2x12 combo and the closed back 2x12 recto cab I had. I agree that the open back is more ‘expansive’. It seems to sound better for ropey kind of single note riffing where you want a part to sound huge. Closed back seems better to me for faster rhythmic chording.

I listened to some demos of ported 1x12 cabs online and they all sounded way too bass hyped for what I’d want in a studio situation. I will take your advice and avoid ported options.

I have never had any luck distance micing a guitar cab and using the distance mic as a core sound for a guitar. I often get good results using a distance mic and adding a delay to it to add room sound and blending it in to a close mic on the cab, but I always end up using the close mic to get the core of the sound (usually around 75% of the sound).

Any physics tips you could share about close mic positioning? You said you didn’t like to go all the way inside the cone because it cuts off the peak of longer waveforms. Care to explain more? Is there a happy middle ground for a detailed sound that is more natural than the ‘as close as possible to the speaker method’ which, though quite detailed is admittedly not a very natural way to hear a guitar?

No one I have ever heard explain their guitar close mic technique has ever given a good physics reason behind it. We all know that ‘closer to center of speaker cone is brighter, further to edge of cone is darker’, and about the proximity effect, but beyond that I’ve never heard a good rationale behind a particular guitar cab close mic strategy. If you’d care to share one, it would be greatly appreciated.

In any case, I thank you for the knowledge you have already shared.

MM
I like open-back cabs cabs because the back pressure on the speaker cone is minimised thus making for a fuller sound. They don't like being near a wall, but we have decent size rooms so that's not an issue. With closed back cabs , back pressure creates beats in the cone , thus "tightening the bottom end as it seems to affect the low frequencies more. Its not necessarily a bad thing and is advantageous in certain styles.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Moss View Post

No one I have ever heard explain their guitar close mic technique has ever given a good physics reason behind it. We all know that ‘closer to center of speaker cone is brighter, further to edge of cone is darker’, and about the proximity effect, but beyond that I’ve never heard a good rationale behind a particular guitar cab close mic strategy. If you’d care to share one, it would be greatly appreciated.

In any case, I thank you for the knowledge you have already shared.

MM
Evidently you haven't read any of my voluminous explanations.

Not surprising, nobody ever bothers to - or very few, anyway.

Will try to do it (again) later. Right now it's dinner time.

I'm not sure what you mean by "a good rationale" - there is no "rationale", there's only basic physics and acoustics. It's actually really simple.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #75
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Evidently you haven't read any of my voluminous explanations.

Not surprising, nobody ever bothers to - or very few, anyway.

Will try to do it (again) later. Right now it's dinner time.

I'm not sure what you mean by "a good rationale" - there is no "rationale", there's only basic physics and acoustics. It's actually really simple.

Unfortunately, I have not!

I will happily read any explanation of any length that you are willing to share.

Thanks in advance.

MM
Old 3 weeks ago
  #76
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
As to the positioning of the close mics: point the mic close to the dust-cap at 90deg. Now move the mic slowly away from the dust-cap noting the amplitude of a sine-wave or a single repeating note played with the same velocity. You will notice that the sound will reduce in amplitude and then increase slightly. What you have is a sine-wave (or a complex sound) with the amplitude oscillating and diffusing at the same time as you move further away from the speaker. To get optimal sound quality you would aim to capture peak of the oscillation of the fundamental frequency. The position will depend on that frequency. If you are using a close mic and a distant one then by getting than both to hit a peak you will reduce the amount of phasing. Its more complex then that but I am at a loss to give a simpler explanation in a hurry. Perhaps someone like John can pitch in , he is pretty good at a more scientific way of presenting things without being too technical. If you need more, and no-one else explains it better I will try and do a better job tomorrow, I don't have a session then (thanks god, I need a rest)
Yuri,

This is fascinating.

As I understand it: I should run a continuous signal out to my amp (i would use a reamp box) and then begin with the mic placed relatively close to the speaker cone on axis. I then slowly pull the mic back.. Instead of seeing only a continuously decreasing in signal into the mic due to the increasing distance, at some point the signal level of the mic will actually increase, and whatever distance that occurs is the ideal point?

Can't wait to try it out!

Thanks alot.

MM
Old 3 weeks ago
  #77
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audioforce's Avatar
 

I can explain it better.

Just move the mics around until it sounds really good. Then stop moving them.

[Unless you are only going to play one note over and over again through the whole song, in which case you can do what Yuri is talking about if you have extra time on your hands or are bored, but its faster to just move the mics around until it sounds good].

Then, just try to play good notes in a good order and at good times, with a good sound.



You're welcome.


Best,

audioforce
Old 3 weeks ago
  #78
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audioforce's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Evidently you haven't read any of my voluminous explanations.
Yet another excellent quotable.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #79
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioforce View Post
I can explain it better.



Then, just try to play good notes in a good order and at good times, with a good sound.



You're welcome.


Best,

audioforce
And don't forget them spaces
Old 3 weeks ago
  #80
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audioforce's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
And don't forget them spaces
Importance of spaces simply cannot be overstated.

Spaces = "The Sound of Rock"


Love,

audioforce
Old 3 weeks ago
  #81
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioforce View Post
Importance of spaces simply cannot be overstated.

Spaces = "The Sound of Rock"


Love,

audioforce
Old 3 weeks ago
  #82
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
You can use multi-speaker cabs but for that style of music close-mic'ing is the main method. Meaning you select the best speaker and put the mic on that. However the other speakers in the cab bleed into the mic also, which due to different distance from the mic creates phasing. This can manifest itself with a thinner sound and loss of focus. You may like that but most people don't. The solution is to lift the cab off the floor and mic it from about 1m away - this will create a different tone. What some people do is take the grill cloth off and put the mic almost inside the cone. I don't like that as for longer wave-forms it is usually missing a peak.
You don't have those issues with a raised single speaker cab and can achieve more variation with your mic placement
I like open-back cab personally'cause yo have a more expansive tone. The closed back cabs have a "tighter" responce with an exaggerated lower mids, which many people prefer. I don't like the "LEnd enhancement" you get with ports. There is no ultimate port, a bad port will result in phasing.

So I purchased a Mesa 1x12 Recto Cab from the local Guitar Shop today and brought it home without even playing it in the store.

Plugged my amp into it, plugged guitar into amp. Played. Sitting with it level with to my head it was immediately obvious the higher degree of focus this 1x12 had compared to its bigger Recto 2x12 counterpart I had had until just a month ago.


Then I rigged up the 1x12 precisely how I mic'd the 2x12. An SM57 up close on the grill and a condenser mic a little off axis and perhaps 2 or so feet away give or take. Recorded about 5 mins of some cleanish rhythms.

Immediately on playback the difference was pretty stunning. It is so much darn closer to the sound I have always been hearing in my head. I am really amazed how big an impact making it a truly mono source (1 speaker in stead of multiple) had. It seems obvious now that this would be the case with hindsight but I'm pretty shocked. Thanks for the tip and for explaining it in a way that made me actually believe it enough to try. I had often heard 1x12s are great for recording, but usually from people saying that 1x12 combo amps at least are usually quieter and can be cranked more easily . After hearing this I feel the lack of phasing issues are probably a bigger contributor to the 1x12 sounding better (I was recording fairly quietly and it still sounds way better).

-MM
Old 3 weeks ago
  #83
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Evidently you haven't read any of my voluminous explanations.
Hi John,

I actually searched through the forum and did find one great thread you posted quite a bit in just earlier this year. It was the thread about the guy trying to record the Fender Bandmaster with 3 10" speakers and wondering why the amp that sounded great in the room sounded like bollocks after going through the mic.

I don't know if this was the explanation you were referring to particularly, but I read that whole thread and it was really helpful in the sense of the physics. You pointed out that trying to close mic an amp like that ultra close was a fool's errand because there wouldn't be the convergence of the 3 speakers to give it its actual authentic sound, but rather just a small spot of one speaker. This made much sense to me. Furthermore, everything you commented about the SM 57 and its horrible off axis coloration that makes it suck for distant micing explained why he wasn't getting a good result.

That bit was a particularly big revelation because I have usually avoided using a mic even over a foot away for the core guitar sound because every time I've tried this it has tended to sound really gross..

Well, pretty much every time I've done that I've just been using the same 57 I'd close mic with and pulling it back a foot or two. So I was likely experiencing a lot of crap off axis sound that did sound quite garage-y and ratty and thought distance micing guitar cabs must just suck in general. Your point about what the 57 off axis response does to a hi-hat was highly convincing, as I have actually had quite a bit of experience noticing that particular phenomenon. I always thought the problem was just the bleed of the hi hat itself, but I guess it's also that its not just bleed, it's really terrible sounding bleed.

So now I definitely want to look into the Beyer mics you mentioned in that thread that have the better off axis coloration. Just so I can get my main mic sound from a wider variation of distances than just jammed up on the girll. You mentioned 2 options, the M88 and the M201.. Would you to care share some thoughts on those options and which is better for guitar in your opinion?

Thanks for your time.

MM
Old 3 weeks ago
  #84
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

[QUOTE=Master Moss;14235978]So I purchased a Mesa 1x12 Recto Cab from the local Guitar Shop today and brought it home without even playing it in the store.

Plugged my amp into it, plugged guitar into amp. Played. Sitting with it level with to my head it was immediately obvious the higher degree of focus this 1x12 had compared to its bigger Recto 2x12 counterpart I had had until just a month ago.


Then I rigged up the 1x12 precisely how I mic'd the 2x12. An SM57 up close on the grill and a condenser mic a little off axis and perhaps 2 or so feet away give or take. Recorded about 5 mins of some cleanish rhythms.

Immediately on playback the difference was pretty stunning. It is so much darn closer to the sound I have always been hearing in my head. I am really amazed how big an impact making it a truly mono source (1 speaker in stead of multiple) had. It seems obvious now that this would be the case with hindsight but I'm pretty shocked. Thanks for the tip and for explaining it in a way that made me actually believe it enough to try. I had often heard 1x12s are great for recording, but usually from people saying that 1x12 combo amps at least are usually quieter and can be cranked more easily . After hearing this I feel the lack of phasing issues are probably a bigger contributor to the 1x12 sounding better (I was recording fairly quietly and it still sounds way better).


welcome to the world of mic'ing a real cabinet. I usually start with 1 mic about a foot away and a third one a little higher and about 1 m/yard away. The close mic will 1/3 of a foot on the grill pointing towards the centre at 30deg. the cab should be ~1m off the ground (use a bass cab underneath if you have one) and at least 1m away from the walls at the back and sides.
Move the mics around and blend to taste. Many engineers use 2 mics in phase on the close (eg a ribbon and a dynamic/condenser, I like dynamic and condenser). By experimenting you will find the combinations you like.
There are other techniques like tunnelling (was very popular in the past - lock 2xkick drums together , speaker on one side mic on the other, or make a tunnel out of a carpet), fire the sound through a hose to get funny reverbs, get reflections of a large plate reverb or a spring reverb.....
Its a lot of fun and much more usefull material then from a preset emulation unit. Cheap to do too.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #85
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Moss View Post
Hi John,

I actually searched through the forum and did find one great thread you posted quite a bit in just earlier this year. It was the thread about the guy trying to record the Fender Bandmaster with 3 10" speakers and wondering why the amp that sounded great in the room sounded like bollocks after going through the mic.

I don't know if this was the explanation you were referring to particularly, but I read that whole thread and it was really helpful in the sense of the physics. You pointed out that trying to close mic an amp like that ultra close was a fool's errand because there wouldn't be the convergence of the 3 speakers to give it its actual authentic sound, but rather just a small spot of one speaker. This made much sense to me. Furthermore, everything you commented about the SM 57 and its horrible off axis coloration that makes it suck for distant micing explained why he wasn't getting a good result.

That bit was a particularly big revelation because I have usually avoided using a mic even over a foot away for the core guitar sound because every time I've tried this it has tended to sound really gross..

Well, pretty much every time I've done that I've just been using the same 57 I'd close mic with and pulling it back a foot or two. So I was likely experiencing a lot of crap off axis sound that did sound quite garage-y and ratty and thought distance micing guitar cabs must just suck in general. Your point about what the 57 off axis response does to a hi-hat was highly convincing, as I have actually had quite a bit of experience noticing that particular phenomenon. I always thought the problem was just the bleed of the hi hat itself, but I guess it's also that its not just bleed, it's really terrible sounding bleed.

So now I definitely want to look into the Beyer mics you mentioned in that thread that have the better off axis coloration. Just so I can get my main mic sound from a wider variation of distances than just jammed up on the girll. You mentioned 2 options, the M88 and the M201.. Would you to care share some thoughts on those options and which is better for guitar in your opinion?

Thanks for your time.

MM
M88 and m201 are the same-ish mic with a different head-basket. m88 is my favourite dynamic and the most versatile dynamic. Sorta a desert island mic. For guitar recording with dynamics i like the telefunken m80, occasionally sennheiser m421 or you can fall on the old faithfull m57 (hate that personally but who am i to argue). You can also take a chance on the old AKG d19, md 409 (or better still new md906) but these are not as versatile as the ones i previously mentioned. New handheld condensers work well in combination like the ones from neumann, EV (cheaper), shure and RODE. The thing is you get different sounds with all of these so you may want to try them first before you buy. Most ribbons work but i only use them in combination with a good dynamic or condenser. I don't like them on their own unless its a specific sound.
Some combinations work better with different style cabs and speakers and for styles of music. Not for everything. But you can get by if you know what you are doing.
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