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Great News Regarding CITES & Rosewood
Old 10th September 2019
  #31
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The U.S. constitution only has the full force of law in the U.S.
Old 10th September 2019
  #32
Quote:
Originally Posted by piano View Post
In the case of Brazilian Rosewood, it steps on Americans ability to buy an affordable instrument made of the wood.

It also stepped on the right of an American who wanted to grow more Brazilian trees. He was jailed and fined for attempting to do just that.
I don’t believe that there are any constitutional amendments protecting your ability to buy affordable instruments. Would you also like ivory piano keys and guitar cases lined with Siberian tiger skin?

Not sure about that scenario with the tree guy but I’m sure there’s more to it than just being stepped on by “the man.” There always is.
Old 10th September 2019
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitecat View Post
Would you also like ivory piano keys and guitar cases lined with Siberian tiger skin?
I would! For sure.

Yeah, man, if you could hook me up with some of that stuff it would be cool. But, hmmm, not if its illegal or anything like that.

Thanks!


Best,

audioforce
Old 11th September 2019
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitecat View Post
I don’t believe that there are any constitutional amendments protecting your ability to buy affordable instruments. Would you also like ivory piano keys and guitar cases lined with Siberian tiger skin?

Not sure about that scenario with the tree guy but I’m sure there’s more to it than just being stepped on by “the man.” There always is.
I posted the article about the man trying to grow trees a few posts behind. Give it a read and make your own mind up.

The point is the CITES laws increased the rarity, desirability and expense of brazilian instruments. Recent CITES laws were never voted on by Americans and the US constitution does not bind me to foreign laws in the USA. However, this is what has happened. People owning such CITES baned items are potentially criminalized if they do not persue the correct paperwork when selling items.

Ivory and skins come from living wild animals which are often more difficult to re-establish than trees. This is a tree which can be grown (although slowly) like any cash crop. In fact there are, koa and ebony trees being grown as cash crops. The same can be done with Brazilian Rosewood.
Old 11th September 2019
  #35
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You can and should plant more trees and make more for the future.

When CITES bans seeds from being exported for planting and growing more, it seems there is something else going on beyond the desire to protect them.
Old 12th September 2019
  #36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmboy presents View Post
Similar to treaties that step on the rights of Americans to buy underage sex slaves, heroin, powdered tiger schlong and rhino pants at a reasonable price. All desirable, all illegal. Sigh.
Not similar at all. Importing seeds to grow trees here is nowhere near the same as illicit importing of dangerous drugs, commercial sexual exploitation, or the slaughter of adult endangered species for BS folk remedies. In fact it's the exact opposite.

This is just another example of well-meaning but totally ignorant (of the particular subject) lawmakers passing laws that have the opposite of ther intended results.

I believe that attempting to grow Brazilian rosewood in the US is a laudable idea, but not much of a solution to ther current problem. Trees take a long time to grow, farmed wood with ample irrigation makes inferior tonewood compared to premium old growth wood, and soil, weather, and overall climate conditions are different in the US than in Brazil, which is much closer to the equator.

Nonetheless, banning the importation of tree seeds is stupid.
Old 13th September 2019
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
I believe that attempting to grow Brazilian rosewood in the US is a laudable idea, but not much of a solution to ther current problem. Trees take a long time to grow, farmed wood with ample irrigation makes inferior tonewood compared to premium old growth wood, and soil, weather, and overall climate conditions are different in the US than in Brazil, which is much closer to the equator.

Nonetheless, banning the importation of tree seeds is stupid.
Absolutely John.

The American that was given jail time and a whopping fine for possessing Brazilian Rosewood tree seeds was going to grow some in Fiji. The Big Island of Hawaii is another area a cash crop of Brazilian can be grown. Both these politically stable areas are good long term places to grow the trees.

There are plenty of angel investors out there who would purchase land, grow the trees and sell their shares to the next generaton until the trees are ready for guitar harvesting.

However, I strongly suspect Brazilian Rosewood is NOT as endangered as it is reported - as in it is far more abundant than we think. The Brazilian government is one of the most corrupt governments and many have suspected that the listing of their woods is an attempt to price spike the cost of the woods.

If an investor was able to plant seeds and grow more Brazilian Rosewood --- this would help bring pricing down and allow more people to own this holy grail wood in the future.
Old 13th September 2019
  #38
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Not similar at all. Importing seeds to grow trees here is nowhere near the same as illicit importing of dangerous drugs, commercial sexual exploitation, or the slaughter of adult endangered species for BS folk remedies. In fact it's the exact opposite.

This is just another example of well-meaning but totally ignorant (of the particular subject) lawmakers passing laws that have the opposite of ther intended results.

I believe that attempting to grow Brazilian rosewood in the US is a laudable idea, but not much of a solution to ther current problem. Trees take a long time to grow, farmed wood with ample irrigation makes inferior tonewood compared to premium old growth wood, and soil, weather, and overall climate conditions are different in the US than in Brazil, which is much closer to the equator.

Nonetheless, banning the importation of tree seeds is stupid.
Just watched the Amazon fires (man made) on the news. Brazilian rosewood anyone?
Old 14th September 2019
  #39
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Most of the fires in the Brazilian Amazon are interior. The Brazilian Rosewood trees grow on the coast, so it would be likely those are safe.

The valuable trees that are at risk for the fires are the Mohogany trees. Another, perhpaps by some, under-appreciated amazing guitar tone wood.
Old 14th September 2019
  #40
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Farmboy presents's Avatar
The guy with the seeds went to a lot of length to aquire his seeds, knowing that he was doing something illegal. The article implies that he could have applied for a permit; but who knows how possible that would be in reality.
Seeds are a great way to spread parasite insects around and who knows what he may have introduced to Fiji, to ravage local flora or fauna. Everything is connected in nature and ecosystems rely on species being present. By this i mean all the other species that rely on rosewood for their homes and food. Refugees from deforestation cannot easily find new homes within balanced systems. People seem to forget that we dont live in the environment, we are the environment.
Old 22nd September 2019
  #41
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The Brazilian government has, save for some exceptions, banned brazilian rosewood for exportation since 1991. Since the late 1960's there has been a lowering of supply. Since the 1960s this is 50 years of possible growth of newly planted trees. Since 1991 this is almost 30 years. This tree could be grown and sold decades down the line and provide a full college education for an entire family.

Did they plant more? I have read one article that a brazilian group called Dalbergia Preservation is planting more but there is no website on this group. Supposedly they also provide seeds for people to plant. However, this must ONLY be for people in brazil.

It would be nice to see seeds let out so that people could grow the trees in other places in the world like Florida. Seed packets are sold all over the world for all sorts of plants without insects (a rather poor reason for not planting seeds).
Old 22nd September 2019
  #42
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmboy presents View Post
Similar to treaties that step on the rights of Americans to buy underage sex slaves, heroin, powdered tiger schlong and rhino pants at a reasonable price. All desirable, all illegal. Sigh.
Seriously? Just a wee bit over-the-top doncha think?.. or is it just another "Everything About America is Evil" rant?
Old 23rd September 2019
  #43
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Farmboy presents's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Seriously? Just a wee bit over-the-top doncha think?.. or is it just another "Everything About America is Evil" rant?
Nah, i was just responding to the premise that being American somehow confers a special status, and that the constitution of the USA is bigger than a international law that is trying (even if flawed) to protect the endangered and most vulnerable amongst us. The rule of law is, after all, what makes America great.

Last edited by Farmboy presents; 23rd September 2019 at 09:24 AM.. Reason: Poor grammer
Old 23rd September 2019
  #44
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmboy presents View Post
Nah, i was just responding to the premise that being American somehow confers a special status, and that the constitution of the USA is bigger than a international law that is trying (even if flawed) to protect the endangered and most vulnerable amongst us. The rule of law is, after all, what makes America great.
OK. Cool. and I largely agree but I think the point of this thread is that while lip service is spun to appear as protecting endangered species, in fact it is just a facade to appear positive and wholesome but is actually just about wealth and power. Actually, that is often the case even in American Law.... and everybody else's as well.
Old 30th September 2019
  #45
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The best thing to do is grow more Brazilian Rosewood trees for the future so another future generation can experience what is the best guitar wood on the planet.

Governments banning it, difficult to ship and making it difficult to obtain has increased the price tremendously.
Old 30th September 2019
  #46
PRS Guitars was investing in Braz reforestation projects... not sure if the current political climate is helping it, but at least the work they were doing was coastal so unlikely to be affected much by the fires.

https://www.prsguitars.com/brazilian/
Old 1st October 2019
  #47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmboy presents View Post
Nah, i was just responding to the premise that being American somehow confers a special status, and that the constitution of the USA is bigger than a international law that is trying (even if flawed) to protect the endangered and most vulnerable amongst us. The rule of law is, after all, what makes America great.
None of this has one single iota to do with the US Constitution. Not one bit.

What it has to do with is the CITES treaty, which is international.

There is nothing in the US Constitution that has the slightest bit of bearing on this issue.

That being said, The US traditionally has had a lot of influence internationally, but that's all it is - influence. Until 2016 other countries listened to what we said and tended to take our advice. This influence has been seriously weakened these last 3-1/2 years.
Old 3rd October 2019
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitecat View Post
PRS Guitars was investing in Braz reforestation projects... not sure if the current political climate is helping it, but at least the work they were doing was coastal so unlikely to be affected much by the fires.

https://www.prsguitars.com/brazilian/
Great find there WhiteCat.

I did not see anything about actual Brazilian Rosewood Trees only 're-forestation". But it is good see they are planting.

The only real way you can fix this is by planting more trees. In the east coast, most of the forest was cut down in the 1850's but you would never know that now. No one is banning slow growing trees either.
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