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Real Cabinet vs. Cab Impulse Response - Can you hear the difference?
Old 13th September 2019
  #181
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Quint's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
It was a result of a "rebellious spirit". Something which is currently completely missing with today's american society. There is no will to fight. People lost to consumerism, new toys and hopelessness. The rich 5% have won (for now). So if you are still thinking about the audiences of the old days, you are completely out of touch. You need to give your audience new hope, a will to find something better. For that you need to get to their level, talk their language. By being elitist and self-indulgent you have no hope to do that. They will not listen to your message.
Dude. I have no idea what you are trying to argue. You're arguing against an artist trying to do something new and then talking about "rebellious spirit".

You can't be a rebellious spirit if all you care about is continuing the status quo or playing to millions of people. That's a quick path to mediocrity.

Desiring to play in front of millions of people IS consumerism. I am squarely speaking against that.

Creating a new "language" isn't elitist. It's the opposite of that. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Old 13th September 2019
  #182
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quint View Post
No, I think a lot of people saw the value in a car, once exposed to what a car could actually do, a lot quicker than you imagine, but simply couldn't afford one. That's an economic argument, not a preference argument.

In art circles, yes, there might be a bit of equivalency between an artist dying. But, again, so what? In all forms of innovation, there are winners and losers. Are you saying that no one should attempt to innovate and should, instead, just always stick with the status quo simply because they might fail?

I guess Hendrix should have never expanded some horizons? All of the various inventors out there throughout history should have never pushed the envelope on new technologies?

Yeah, sometimes artists die and aren't recognized until later. Again, so what? We should all just continue to wallow in an eternal quagmire of mediocrity? No way!
Hendrix was one of the most "in touch with the audience" people in the history of modern music.
And yes, sometimes value is recognised later, sometimes too late.
Here we are dealing with something which touches people on an emotional level. Otherwise they can watch one of the CNN fake-news broadcasts. They are not interested in how many notes you can play a second but need to suddenly realise that your message resonates with their inner feeling deep down. THEN it becomes revolutionary. You need to know what you are "talking" about to "speak to them. It may sound simplistic and corny but thats what I learned in over 30 years as a professional in music business (also being a partner in a record company, as a producer, ...). It took a person with very high credentials to make me understand that.
Commercialism may not appeal, but believe me, advertising groups know how to touch and influence people much better then you and me both. By dismissing their knowledge and having a high-handed attitude, you are doing yourself a dis-service and relegating your, possibly revolutionary, art to oblivion. Learn to love your audience and they will love you back and listen to you
Old 13th September 2019
  #183
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quint View Post
Dude. I have no idea what you are trying to argue. You're arguing against an artist trying to do something new and then talking about "rebellious spirit".

You can't be a rebellious spirit if all you care about is continuing the status quo or playing to millions of people. That's a quick path to mediocrity.

Desiring to play in front of millions of people IS consumerism. I am squarely speaking against that.

Creating a new "language" isn't elitist. It's the opposite of that. You have no idea what you're talking about.
No, i didn't say that. I said that you need to respect your audience and not be elitist, self-indulgent "artist" to achieve success. That you need to entertain your audience, make them listen to you. If you just say "this is my "art" and I like it" then you will not reach anyone. No-one wants it. If you can enguage them, in a new way or old, you can get your message across.
Dont dictate (a current problem of the US political elite) - talk
We seem to going around in circles with this discussion
Old 13th September 2019
  #184
Lives for gear
 
Quint's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Hendrix was one of the most "in touch with the audience" people in the history of modern music.
And yes, sometimes value is recognised later, sometimes too late.
Here we are dealing with something which touches people on an emotional level. Otherwise they can watch one of the CNN fake-news broadcasts. They are not interested in how many notes you can play a second but need to suddenly realise that your message resonates with their inner feeling deep down. THEN it becomes revolutionary. You need to know what you are "talking" about to "speak to them. It may sound simplistic and corny but thats what I learned in over 30 years as a professional in music business (also being a partner in a record company, as a producer, ...). It took a person with very high credentials to make me understand that.
Commercialism may not appeal, but believe me, advertising groups know how to touch and influence people much better then you and me both. By dismissing their knowledge and having a high-handed attitude, you are doing yourself a dis-service and relegating your, possibly revolutionary, art to oblivion. Learn to love your audience and they will love you back and listen to you
I'm not even going to wade into the whole fake news nonsense....

As for Hendrix, or other innovators like him, his audience didn't even exist until he (they) created it. There is no point in continuing to argue that point if you refuse to understand the basics of how music, as an artform, pushes the boundaries rather than just coloring between the lines.
Old 13th September 2019
  #185
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quint View Post
I'm not even going to wade into the whole fake news nonsense....

As for Hendrix, or other innovators like him, his audience didn't even exist until he (they) created it. There is no point in continuing to argue that point if you refuse to understand the basics of how music, as an artform, pushes the boundaries rather than just coloring between the lines.
I remember reading Clapton's musings, saying that he was carefully worded on the fact that this new "wunderkind" with a new pedal is playing some club. Then other guitar heroes turned up to that also. Good marketing, which started by getting other "music gods" to attend your gig :-)

I have been around to understand many things, and have been , many years ago, of the same opinion as you. but have changed my view since. But don't get the idea i'm trying to convert you in any way. This just my opinion. Please proceed as before
Old 13th September 2019
  #186
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Quint's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
No, i didn't say that. I said that you need to respect your audience and not be elitist, self-indulgent "artist" to achieve success. That you need to entertain your audience, make them listen to you. If you just say "this is my "art" and I like it" then you will not reach anyone. No-one wants it. If you can enguage them, in a new way or old, you can get your message across.
Dont dictate (a current problem of the US political elite) - talk
We seem to going around in circles with this discussion
Here's the thing. Hendrix (and many others like him) totally said "this is my art" and "I like it", and they reached just a "few" more people than NO one, irrespective of what was currently popular or whatever "audience" for that type of music didn't exist prior to that.

You just fundamentally misunderstand music as an artform. That's fine. You just want to be entertained.
Old 13th September 2019
  #187
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quint View Post
Here's the thing. Hendrix (and many others like him) totally said "this is my art" and "I like it", and they reached just a "few" more people than NO one, irrespective of what was currently popular or whatever "audience" for that type of music didn't exist prior to that.

You just fundamentally misunderstand music as an artform. That's fine. You just want to be entertained.
Not really. He just stole some of the audiences Clapton, Beck, Page and a bunch of others had. To do this he did things differently (a little) and got the rewards. That's market competition in an environment where people craved more. These days there is a lot of everything, at the same time a lot of nothing. Give people something they relate to and want to hear and you will be another Hendrix. Otherwise be what you understand makes an "artist"
Old 13th September 2019
  #188
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Quint's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Not really. He just stole some of the audiences Clapton, Beck, Page and a bunch of others had. To do this he did things differently (a little) and got the rewards. That's market competition in an environment where people craved more. These days there is a lot of everything, at the same time a lot of nothing. Give people something they relate to and want to hear and you will be another Hendrix. Otherwise be what you understand makes an "artist"
Alright man. You clearly don't get it. I'm done. Keep looking in the mirror. That will always keep you looking in reverse. Or at yourself....
Old 13th September 2019
  #189
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quint View Post
Alright man. You clearly don't get it. I'm done. Keep looking in the mirror. That will always keep you looking in reverse. Or at yourself....
Old 13th September 2019
  #190
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Quint's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post


John Eppstein, Tiny, and others are also correct about your misguided understanding of what it means to play through an actual amp.

Just to bring the conversation back.
Old 13th September 2019
  #191
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quint View Post
John Eppstein, Tiny, and others are also correct about your misguided understanding of what it means to play through an actual amp.

Just to bring the conversation back.
I have almost 190 real amps, a bunch of speakers and 850 pedals. Even bigger number of guitars. All that in a studio you will only see in the pictures. Plus over 30 years of experience using these. Please do tell what is it I don't know about playing a real amp?
Old 13th September 2019
  #192
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Mikhael's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
True. But when you self-expressing you doing it to an audience? And if the audience is not interested, then its like going to the mountain and yelling at the gods. When I am preaching to my kids, i want their attention and understanding. And when they turn away like "what do you know, old man", I know i wasted my time. Same for self-expression
Not really; if no one pays attention, but I did the best I could and feel good about my musical performance, then I didn't waste my time. They did.
Old 13th September 2019
  #193
Gear Guru
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Not really. He just stole some of the audiences Clapton, Beck, Page and a bunch of others had. To do this he did things differently (a little) and got the rewards. That's market competition in an environment where people craved more. These days there is a lot of everything, at the same time a lot of nothing. Give people something they relate to and want to hear and you will be another Hendrix. Otherwise be what you understand makes an "artist"
Did you grow up in that era? I did and can tell you hearing him was like hearing something from another planet. Easy to rewrite history. Nothing at the time sounded like him (or his band)......

All those guys you cited pushed and innovated what you could do with a guitar. Now people have had around 50 years to explore further. The real question is if you can get something different using emulations? That would seem to be an Oxymoron. John E might drop the "Oxy" outta the equation!......

What is wonderful about guitar players is each guy hears differently. Jimi simply played differently and used what was on hand to push his vision, like it or not. I'd concentrate on that. BB King basically used one great sound (to my ears), and worked it. I listen to how guys play and what they're bringing to the song, that's where innovation really lies. If I was thinking about different Jack White had a very cool distinctive sound, but I don't really follow what's out there now,,,,
Old 13th September 2019
  #194
Gear Maniac
 
BCProject's Avatar
 

Seriously. People.

Do you really think that there will be a breakthru world-dominating guitar player using a 60-eras Gibson/Fender thru a 60s-style tube amp, a huge analog pedalboard and wearing bell-bottoms? That is wishful nostalgic delusion.

*IF* there is a new guitar player that connects with a wide, new audience *ALL* evidence would strongly suggest s/he will come out of left-field and use tools and techniques that are obscure and/or widely dismissed but the old-guard.

All to say - there is no axiomatic gear formula for what is "good" or appealing or has intrinsic inarguable artistic integrity.
Old 13th September 2019
  #195
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grannis's Avatar
Musicians can be artists, entertainers or both. Me and my singer have some healthy debates because he is more of one, and I am more of the other. We achieve a middle ground that kinda works. Artists don't need an audience, they need to express themselves. Personally, I need the cash
Old 14th September 2019
  #196
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
Did you grow up in that era? I did and can tell you hearing him was like hearing something from another planet. Easy to rewrite history. Nothing at the time sounded like him (or his band)......

All those guys you cited pushed and innovated what you could do with a guitar. Now people have had around 50 years to explore further. The real question is if you can get something different using emulations? That would seem to be an Oxymoron. John E might drop the "Oxy" outta the equation!......

What is wonderful about guitar players is each guy hears differently. Jimi simply played differently and used what was on hand to push his vision, like it or not. I'd concentrate on that. BB King basically used one great sound (to my ears), and worked it. I listen to how guys play and what they're bringing to the song, that's where innovation really lies. If I was thinking about different Jack White had a very cool distinctive sound, but I don't really follow what's out there now,,,,
Yes I did grow up then :-).
I cannot describe his playing in those heavenly terms however there was alot different to how he expressed himself (some out of necessity). So did the guys I mentioned and many others on top of them.
The point is that their audiences appreciated that. It was something tht they wanted to hear, it alowed them to connect. Others, although technically brilliant (take A.Holdsworth for example) did not achieve such acclaim because what they did did not appeal to the masses. So he died destitute.
Hendrix was very conscious of how he presented himself to his audience and to how they saw him. And they lowed him for that
Old 4 weeks ago
  #197
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frans's Avatar
Nobody is forcing all of you to use a cab sim or a real amp or whatever. There's no use in saying that one is better than the other - they are different and can provide different results. That's an artistic decision. Other people decide things other than you, or me. You may like your results more than those of the person who does things differently.
Just leave the people alone that don't think the same that you do, okay? I value the contributions by John Eppstein as much as those who disagree with him and have my own pick about what helps me to get results i judge as better. Different isn't better, it's just different. Nobody wins a price here. You either contribute help or you don't.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #198
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by frans View Post
Nobody is forcing all of you to use a cab sim or a real amp or whatever. There's no use in saying that one is better than the other - they are different and can provide different results. That's an artistic decision. Other people decide things other than you, or me. You may like your results more than those of the person who does things differently.
Just leave the people alone that don't think the same that you do, okay? I value the contributions by John Eppstein as much as those who disagree with him and have my own pick about what helps me to get results i judge as better. Different isn't better, it's just different. Nobody wins a price here. You either contribute help or you don't.
YES. Its one of the odd things of internet discussion that it is no longer OK just to have an opinion or preference. The preference now must be attributed to some sort of superior talent, skill, understanding, or moral view, inherently making other preferences "wrong" or "uneducated."


if you find artist artists who cut their own ears off, or end up in an asylum, or commit suicide, or who run stark naked through the streets painted orange to be more inspiring that those who write top 40 music or popular books, then enjoy those folks. And if you don't that's fine too. It doesn't make you any better or worse of a person to do that. More important , it doesn't make someone who enjoys something else "stupid" "moronic" "tasteless" etc .etc.

If I find that a Peavey Bandit Combo. or a Line 6 POD sounds better for my purposes that a '59 Bassman or a '64 Twin, then IT IS BETTER FOR MY PURPOSES. That doesn't mean that anyone else is supposed to like it, or should be using it, or should take any notice of my personal preference.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #199
Gear Guru
I don't get why people are so hostile to the fact that a real amp and guitar can do something that sims can't. No one is getting angry about what sims do. As an artist it's important to know limitations and possibilities. Someone like John has a lifetime of experience in speaker design, guitar playing and tech-ing. No one is saying don't use something, they're just saying it may not be good for a certain application because it has a built in real limitation. Hell even mics react with preamps....

If I can get a usable sound out of a sim without buying a premium rig, great! i have a bad back and my hearing is shot anyway. I'll hire someone for real if I need that level of perfection (and do!).....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #200
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
I don't get why people are so hostile to the fact that a real amp and guitar can do something that sims can't. .

Just reverse it.

why do you get so hostile to the "fact" that a sim can do everything a real amp and guitar can do?

Because you don't believe it to be a "fact," and therefore you feel hostile.

Why are people with an opposite view not entitled to the same reaction?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #201
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
Just reverse it.

why do you get so hostile to the "fact" that a sim can do everything a real amp and guitar can do?

Because you don't believe it to be a "fact," and therefore you feel hostile.

Why are people with an opposite view not entitled to the same reaction?


OK, kids...

Each can do something the other can't. I know you can't admit to that because you think you're losing some fight. "My favorite is superior and can do all your's can - and more!"

Delusional.

If you can't hear a difference, fine. I bet I can measure it....




-tINY

Old 4 weeks ago
  #202
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by tINY View Post


OK, kids...

Each can do something the other can't. I know you can't admit to that because you think you're losing some fight. "My favorite is superior and can do all your's can - and more!"

Delusional.

If you can't hear a difference, fine. I bet I can measure it....




-tINY

Before you go and try to measure anything, you gotta at least learn how to make the correct comparisons. You can't go comparing a random IR to some other mic'ed speaker unrelated to the IR and say you're hearing a difference due to the inherent limitations of IRs (which is what you did in this thread)
Old 4 weeks ago
  #203
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiny View Post


ok, kids...

Each can do something the other can't. I know you can't admit to that because you think you're losing some fight. "my favorite is superior and can do all your's can - and more!"

delusional.

If you can't hear a difference, fine. I bet i can measure it....




-tiny

OH YEAH?

WELL, MY DAD can beat up YOUR DAD!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #204
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tINY View Post


OK, kids...

Each can do something the other can't. I know you can't admit to that because you think you're losing some fight. "My favorite is superior and can do all your's can - and more!"

Delusional.

If you can't hear a difference, fine. I bet I can measure it....


-tINY

Actually Tiny, I never expressed an opinion about cabs and simulators. Frankly I could care less one way or the tother

I was pointing out that nothing is gained by posts in the form of " why do people get mad became I'm right?"
Old 4 weeks ago
  #205
Gear Guru
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
Just reverse it.

why do you get so hostile to the "fact" that a sim can do everything a real amp and guitar can do?

Because you don't believe it to be a "fact," and therefore you feel hostile.

Why are people with an opposite view not entitled to the same reaction?
For the record I never got hostile, but do get sick of attacks on how people express their opinion rather than listening to what they are saying. Especially when they are making a valid point.

Are we still arguing that guitars and amps can do something that sims can't because that's kinda silly.....Whether or not it matters, is completely debatable!.....(and I'm sure will be!).....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #206
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeky83 View Post
Before you go and try to measure anything, you gotta at least learn how to make the correct comparisons. You can't go comparing a random IR to some other mic'ed speaker unrelated to the IR and say you're hearing a difference due to the inherent limitations of IRs (which is what you did in this thread)

I know how to make comparisons - in fact, I can make proper comparisons between disparate samples based on the shortcomings of the source material.

In fact, that was the basis for my original comment in this kindergarten: That chuffing 1/5 chords low on the neck won't really reveal the missing non-linear effects much, if at all.

Since you seem to be interested, why don't you go find a classic-jensen-style speaker in a cabinet and make an IR? Then you can find a decent blues player and record the cab and a line-in from the amp. Then you can apply your IR to the power-amp output and post the two tracks....

You should not label them, and we can listen and see if we can identify the IR.

Or, you could grasp at rhetorical straws in a pathetic attempt to win an argument instead of learning something.

Your choice.....



-tINY

Old 4 weeks ago
  #207
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavesNotHere View Post
OH YEAH?

WELL, MY DAD can beat up YOUR DAD!


No doubt, my dad is nearly 85 years old....



-tINY

Old 4 weeks ago
  #208
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavesNotHere View Post
OH YEAH?

WELL, MY DAD can beat up YOUR DAD!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tINY View Post


No doubt, my dad is nearly 85 years old....



-tINY

Mine died 10 years ago, so I bet either of your dads could best him in a fight!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #209
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tINY View Post


No doubt, my dad is nearly 85 years old....



-tINY

But he has a gun :-)
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