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Real Cabinet vs. Cab Impulse Response - Can you hear the difference?
Old 6 days ago
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
I'm not an ivory tower guy but I can tell you the guitarist I work with wouldn't sound the same with out amp interaction and he uses plenty of pedals. I always record him in the same room with his amp. No pro here, but honestly I don't see why this is such a strange concept. Maybe because I'm not a pro? Don't mainly rock guitarists record using their amps in the same room with them?......
I'm not a pro either, but I see a lot of people using their cabs in iso-booths, or other rooms. I can't speak to what MOST do, but to me, it seems more common that someone would be in an adjacent room or space to the actual cab even if they aren't using any cab emulations or IRs in the chain.

There's also a lot of reamping going on these days and some people get great results from that.

Also not calling out you, Ardis, but a lot of folks that mic real amps do less than stellar job of it, sometimes. So, in those cases any benefit is further reduced.

I not advocating any specific way, but usually don't agree that "XYZ" is the only prescription for success.
Old 6 days ago
  #122
Gear Guru
Quote:
Originally Posted by telegramsam View Post
I'm not a pro either, but I see a lot of people using their cabs in iso-booths, or other rooms. I can't speak to what MOST do, but to me, it seems more common that someone would be in an adjacent room or space to the actual cab even if they aren't using any cab emulations or IRs in the chain.

There's also a lot of reamping going on these days and some people get great results from that.

Also not calling out you, Ardis, but a lot of folks that mic real amps do less than stellar job of it, sometimes. So, in those cases any benefit is further reduced.

I not advocating any specific way, but usually don't agree that "XYZ" is the only prescription for success.
Not saying it isn't and notice I said rock guitar playing..... I'm honestly curious since it seems the process is a two way street. Again I'm not an electric player and don't record in big studios. Wouldn't someone like Albert King, Walter Trout, Jonny Winter, Keith Richards, or Pete Townsend want to be in front of an actual amp? Realize that's a top tier list but if that's what you are aspiring to......

I can see clean jazz and maybe a certain kind of electric rock chugga chugga style playing, but for screaming soulful blues or rock, it seems like living on the edge of distortion and feedback is central to the performance.
(I'll let the adults talk now!)....
Old 6 days ago
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
Not saying it isn't and notice I said rock guitar playing..... I'm honestly curious since it seems the process is a two way street. Again I'm not an electric player and don't record in big studios. Wouldn't someone like Albert King, Walter Trout, Jonny Winter, Keith Richards, or Pete Townsend want to be in front of an actual amp? Realize that's a top tier list but if that's what you are aspiring to......

I can see clean jazz and maybe a certain kind of electric rock chugga chugga style playing, but for screaming soulful blues or rock, it seems like living on the edge of distortion and feedback is central to the performance.
(I'll let the adults talk now!)....
It would be interesting to see what choices some of the greats would make in today's studio environment. Although I'm far from any of them, I personally feel most comfortable in the control room monitoring without headphones, with the cab in the other room.

Headphone distribution systems at some studios can be a pain to wrestle with to be in the same room with the cab, too.
Old 6 days ago
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
Don't mainly rock guitarists record using their amps in the same room with them?......
Sometimes. Some do, many don't.

I've done both with good results.

I haven't been following along with every word of this epic debate, but it seems to me that there are some rather strained points and / or distinctions being floated.

And perhaps some overreaching, or trying to ascribe enormous importance to trivialities, in order to lend weight to an argument.

You don't have to use a "real" amp to have interaction with the guitar / player. You just need to hear what you're playing while you're playing it.

Standing in the same room with a dimed Marshall offers some possibilities, some challenges, some limitations, and so on. So how to approach a recording is really a case by case thing.

I typically use real amps, FWIW.

If I can figure out what the actual argument is here, maybe I can add something to this.
Old 6 days ago
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
Not saying it isn't and notice I said rock guitar playing..... I'm honestly curious since it seems the process is a two way street. Again I'm not an electric player and don't record in big studios. Wouldn't someone like Albert King, Walter Trout, Jonny Winter, Keith Richards, or Pete Townsend want to be in front of an actual amp? Realize that's a top tier list but if that's what you are aspiring to......

I can see clean jazz and maybe a certain kind of electric rock chugga chugga style playing, but for screaming soulful blues or rock, it seems like living on the edge of distortion and feedback is central to the performance.
(I'll let the adults talk now!)....
I play on the edge of distortion, and use the feedback from time to time, but I run DI into the PA. The interaction from the monitors suffices quite nicely (our singer can't stand in-ears, so we have real monitors). For most studio work nowadays, I use the studio monitors for that when needed.

Not cutting down "real" amps - I love my big rig and use it for other purposes than my main band. But my DI rig works just as well.
Old 6 days ago
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
I'm sorry; I have to disagree with that. Many of my influences are not on the Billboard hot 100.

As far as the neo-magneted speakers go, they came and went faster than I could listen to one! I was somewhat interested, but more for PA speakers, because of their light weight. But it seems most companies dropped them because of the limited material source (probably because China was the only source of any quantity, and it was limited).
A hero just amongst a group of your pears does not make you a hero. Audience (a large one) make heroes
Old 6 days ago
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
A hero just amongst a group of your pears does not make you a hero. Audience (a large one) make heroes
A group of pears.
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Real Cabinet vs. Cab Impulse Response - Can you hear the difference?-group-pears.jpg  
Old 6 days ago
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioforce View Post
A group of pears.
Peers!!!!!

And where is my redhead spell checker!!!!
Old 6 days ago
  #129
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Old 6 days ago
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
A hero just amongst a group of your pears does not make you a hero. Audience (a large one) make heroes
Not to me. The music I listen to rarely appears on the pop charts.
Old 5 days ago
  #131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Not calling you dumb. But your arguments didn't make sense, which meant, to me, that you were just finding something on the net to contradict John.
I believe John said the same? If not, I beg your pardon
What I said was that up until the late '70s guitar speakers (with a few notable exceptions by companies like JBL, Altec, and EV were generally just cheap speakers originally internded for mediocre Hi-Gi use. In the early '70s a few companies like Eminence and CTS started thinking about speakers intended specifically for guitar amps but it was mostly clumsy modifications to the old designs so thjat they wouldn't blow inm the (then) new higherr powered amps and a few companies aping the appearance of JBLs (when seen through grill cloth) by using poorly designed aluminum domes. Around the late '70s when people were just starting to really get into swapping speakers for tonal reasons companies like Celestion started fooling around with different tuning of speakers for guitar amps and various different cone designs.

Celestion still does specific cone designs for specific applications, one obvious example being the variant of the V30 specifically designed to the specifications of Randall Smith at Mesa.

Incidentally, the first company (that I know of) to specifically design different cones for different MI applications was JBL, who designed their guitar 15" speaker, the D130F, with a curvlinear cone with no seam, while employing a ribbed design - also with no seam - for their bass guitar speaker. That was about 1960, rive or take a year or two. (The "F" in "D130F" stood for Fender, as Leo Fender asked JBL for specific design changes to their D130A Hi-fi speaker to suit the requests of Dick Dale.

Nowadays pretty much every competitor in the guitar speaker market designs and advertises a wide range of speakers with different sonic characteristics. You'd have to be completely ignorant of the current guitar speaker market to not be aware of that.
Old 5 days ago
  #132
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
Not saying it isn't and notice I said rock guitar playing..... I'm honestly curious since it seems the process is a two way street. Again I'm not an electric player and don't record in big studios. Wouldn't someone like Albert King, Walter Trout, Jonny Winter, Keith Richards, or Pete Townsend want to be in front of an actual amp? Realize that's a top tier list but if that's what you are aspiring to......

I can see clean jazz and maybe a certain kind of electric rock chugga chugga style playing, but for screaming soulful blues or rock, it seems like living on the edge of distortion and feedback is central to the performance.
(I'll let the adults talk now!)....
AFAIK clean jazzers tend to prefer real amps for the touch sensitivity and playing dynamics you get with a real amp and speaker.

Most moderrn "chugga" style metal and rock players these days don't appear to be aware of phenomena like touch sensitivity, which goes a long way toward explaining the popularity of sims and IRs with that crowd.

Which is fine for them, I guess. Doesn't do much for me, but I'm not them.

What is NOT fine is the insistence of some of those guys that things like touch sensitivity and playing dynamics don't exist.
Old 5 days ago
  #133
Quote:
Originally Posted by telegramsam View Post
I'm not a pro either, but I see a lot of people using their cabs in iso-booths, or other rooms. I can't speak to what MOST do, but to me, it seems more common that someone would be in an adjacent room or space to the actual cab even if they aren't using any cab emulations or IRs in the chain.
In big studios guitarists using amps in iso booths generally play in the control room and get their feedback effects by blasting through largish studio monitors placed on the producer's desk, where they can get close. This isn't recommended for most home recordists who (A) usually don't have big enough monitors to be effective and (B) probably should not risk the damage that often happens to monitors used in such applications.

Quote:
There's also a lot of reamping going on these days and some people get great results from that.
"Great" results? That's arguable. I know a number of A list engineers and producers who feel that reamping is detrimental to the performance because it divorces the musical/aesthetic (NOT acoustic) feedback between the the musician and the amplifier.

The thing about that is that we'll never know what the part might have been if the player had been interacting with his amp while playing.

Quote:
Also not calling out you, Ardis, but a lot of folks that mic real amps do less than stellar job of it, sometimes. So, in those cases any benefit is further reduced.
The world is filled with bozos who probably have no business recording for listening by anyone except their immediate family members. So what? that has no bearing on the discussion.

And those bozos will never develop the sensitivity in their playing they need to get better if they're playing through compromised systems that don't interact with the player.

There's a learning curve in everything. If you want to get good you need to master it.

It could be that the horrible recording practices resulting from the volume wars have caused many young players to be totally oblivious to the existence of such phenomena since every commercial recording they listen to is slammed to death. And listening to digitally compressed (data compression, not audio) which compromises sound quality on streaming services and YooToob exacerbates the problem. You can't appreciate a fine steak if it's smothered in ketchup and hot sauce.
Old 5 days ago
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Celestion still does specific cone designs for specific applications, one obvious example being the variant of the V30 specifically designed to the specifications of Randall Smith at Mesa.
.
I have a Mesa Nomad combo with on of those in it. The speaker sounds very good when hooked up to my 50W Marshall, but pretty "ice pick" horrible when hooked up to the Mesa.

I finally ran a spectrum analyzer on the Mesa and it has trough at 800Hz a peak of +7db at about 3K. No wonder the dammed thing has a "fizzy" sound.

I then tried to adjust the front tone controls to get something of a flatter response, but ( surprise!) the center frequencies are such that I can't do much about either peak.

I've no idea why they would design something like this. do they think that the average guitarist is incapable of setting eq, so the have to build in a certain popular setting?
Old 5 days ago
  #135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
A hero just amongst a group of your pears does not make you a hero. Audience (a large one) make heroes
It just makes you another fruit in the bowl....


(ducks behind the line of Marshall Majors....)
Old 5 days ago
  #136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Peers!!!!!

And where is my redhead spell checker!!!!
Ireland?
Old 5 days ago
  #137
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeky83 View Post
The "less musical aspects of your pick-attack" are "rounded off" the same in an IR as in a guitar speaker. A guitar speaker's limited bandwidth rounds off pick-attacks. This limited bandwidth is captured in an IR.

Metal players don't favor all IRs. They favor IRs that have a specific sonic signature that suits their guitar tones. The use of IRs doesn't guarantee a non-rounding off of pick attacks.
No. He's talking about DYNAMICS ( specifically, non-linear dynamics in a speaker as compared to linear dynamic reproduction in a computer), not frequency response.

The speaker "rolls off" the dynamics of the pick attack due to the spring effect of the speaker suspension, which increases with excursion.

IR's don't do that since they can't model nonlinearities.
Old 5 days ago
  #138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
I think John Paice of Celestion has absolutely no say in what the bean-counters of Celestion are flogging. They will flog anything they can sell to someone like you who come across as someone without knowledge but good at copying Wikipedia articles and terms (without actually understanding what you are copying)
I also think that what John Paice might say to me or might publish in Voice Coil is probably rather different than what he might say to Yecky or might publish in a mass market publication intended for guitar players.
Old 5 days ago
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
"Great" results? That's arguable. I know a number of A list engineers and producers who feel that reamping is detrimental to the performance because it divorces the musical/aesthetic (NOT acoustic) feedback between the the musician and the amplifier.

The thing about that is that we'll never know what the part might have been if the player had been interacting with his amp while playing.
If everything weren't arguable we wouldn't be here!

I respect their and your opinion, but I have heard people get good results from reamping, that TO ME, sounded very close to the original performance played through the same amp, as a test.

I've done this test myself and felt the results were pretty convincing. Have you ever tried it?

I find that the biggest trip up is prosumer interfaces that output a line level at -10dbu vs +4dbu. The smaller signal is hard to boost up to the correct level that gets in the same range as a guitar plugged straight in.
Old 5 days ago
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCProject View Post
"You kids with your modelers and speaker IRs - sampled drums - mixing inside a computer. GET OFF MY LAWN!!"

I'm not young but even I'm not that rigid and stuck-in-the-past. I just insert "In my opinion: ..." before every post.

I'm listening to some amazing instrumental prog by Plini right now. Not a real-amp within miles of these songs. I think knowing sims and IRs were used would preclude some folks from enjoying the music - since "In their opinion" it is impossible to make valid guitar music with out tube amps and physical cabs & speakers.

To Each, Their Own.
I'm not that young either; I use sampled drums and bass. I've tried some of the latest generation of plugins (Neural DSP Nameless and NTS, so uh, you can guess what kind of tone I am going for) and I think they sound damned good, huge improvement over anything else I've tried over the last 5 - 10 years, for sure.

In a back-to-back comparison by itself and in a mix, I still think close-mic'ing my amp in my untreated makeshift home studio sounds better, bare wood floors and plaster walls be damned.

Then again, I'd listen to some kick-ass music recorded on a Roland MG-10 as long as it was kick ass music.
Old 5 days ago
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
Not to me. The music I listen to rarely appears on the pop charts.
To me a musician is another word for entertainer. You are there to entertain people. Everything else is pretty self-indulgent?
Old 5 days ago
  #142
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
What I said was that up until the late '70s guitar speakers (with a few notable exceptions by companies like JBL, Altec, and EV were generally just cheap speakers originally internded for mediocre Hi-Gi use. In the early '70s a few companies like Eminence and CTS started thinking about speakers intended specifically for guitar amps but it was mostly clumsy modifications to the old designs so thjat they wouldn't blow inm the (then) new higherr powered amps and a few companies aping the appearance of JBLs (when seen through grill cloth) by using poorly designed aluminum domes. Around the late '70s when people were just starting to really get into swapping speakers for tonal reasons companies like Celestion started fooling around with different tuning of speakers for guitar amps and various different cone designs.

Celestion still does specific cone designs for specific applications, one obvious example being the variant of the V30 specifically designed to the specifications of Randall Smith at Mesa.

Incidentally, the first company (that I know of) to specifically design different cones for different MI applications was JBL, who designed their guitar 15" speaker, the D130F, with a curvlinear cone with no seam, while employing a ribbed design - also with no seam - for their bass guitar speaker. That was about 1960, rive or take a year or two. (The "F" in "D130F" stood for Fender, as Leo Fender asked JBL for specific design changes to their D130A Hi-fi speaker to suit the requests of Dick Dale.

Nowadays pretty much every competitor in the guitar speaker market designs and advertises a wide range of speakers with different sonic characteristics. You'd have to be completely ignorant of the current guitar speaker market to not be aware of that.
There is a great variety. However a vast majority are advertising them as an "improved" version of the old design. Mostly unsuccessfully. However unsuccessful copy can still be a useful (and often preferred) speaker. As an example i usually prefer WGS speakers over the originals they are trying to emulate.
Old 5 days ago
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
It just makes you another fruit in the bowl....


(ducks behind the line of Marshall Majors....)
True. But one has to earn money or be chomped down (Oh, stuffed roasted duck -yam)
Old 5 days ago
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
I also think that what John Paice might say to me or might publish in Voice Coil is probably rather different than what he might say to Yecky or might publish in a mass market publication intended for guitar players.
Exactly There is the promo blurb and there is the truth
Old 5 days ago
  #145
Quote:
Originally Posted by telegramsam View Post
If everything weren't arguable we wouldn't be here!

I respect their and your opinion, but I have heard people get good results from reamping, that TO ME, sounded very close to the original performance played through the same amp, as a test.

I've done this test myself and felt the results were pretty convincing. Have you ever tried it?

I find that the biggest trip up is prosumer interfaces that output a line level at -10dbu vs +4dbu. The smaller signal is hard to boost up to the correct level that gets in the same range as a guitar plugged straight in.
To YOU, sure. To ME, generally not. When listening to the end result these days it's often quite had to tell - was the "meh" quality the result of sims, reamping, whatever or was it simply that the artist really wasn't very good?

Who knows?

What I know is that my interest in newly released commercial music - of all kinds - has never been less. Very occasionally I hear something that's quite good. I used to hear stuff that was STUNNINGLY GREAT all the time.

Those who have not lived in an environment of consistent greatness don't really have any yardstick to measure.
Old 5 days ago
  #146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
To me a musician is another word for entertainer. You are there to entertain people. Everything else is pretty self-indulgent?
That really doesn't say anything about Mikhail's comment.

These days the audience does not have the ability to choose what gets played - it's all done by focus groups and corporate dweebs in high rise offices.

These days people listen to what they're force-fed. There is no audience feedback in the playlist process anymore and has not been for a long time.

Hell, It's become REALLY difficult to find a new car with a CD player, forcing people to listen to horrible canned broadcasts in their cars. The last refuge of personal choice is gone.
Old 5 days ago
  #147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
There is a great variety. However a vast majority are advertising them as an "improved" version of the old design. Mostly unsuccessfully. However unsuccessful copy can still be a useful (and often preferred) speaker. As an example i usually prefer WGS speakers over the originals they are trying to emulate.
Advertising. BLRRRP!
Old 5 days ago
  #148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Exactly There is the promo blurb and there is the truth
When AES used to still hold a major convention in SF every two years I used to attend all 3 days and seek out technical people from many companies and discuss these issues. My conclusion is that 75%-85% of what you read is utter BS. It also gave me a really good ability to recognize when I'm being lied to by PR weasels.

Last edited by John Eppstein; 5 days ago at 05:02 AM..
Old 5 days ago
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
To YOU, sure. To ME, generally not. When listening to the end result these days it's often quite had to tell - was the "meh" quality the result of sims, reamping, whatever or was it simply that the artist really wasn't very good?

Who knows?

What I know is that my interest in newly released commercial music - of all kinds - has never been less. Very occasionally I hear something that's quite good. I used to hear stuff that was STUNNINGLY GREAT all the time.

Those who have not lived in an environment of consistent greatness don't really have any yardstick to measure.
I mostly agree with you here. I don't connect much with current releases. I haven't for nearly 15-20 years (I'm unfortunately probably a little older than you might be assuming). However I disagree that it's because of any new technology explicitly. I think song writing as a craft, has fallen out of fashion to some degree along with musicianship.

Especially in my local scene, I see a lot of people that want to project a certain image, but just want to play in their (minimal) spare time and don't have a lot of ambition to be better. This to me seems more detrimental, than any tech itself, although some technology might enable this mindset, for sure. The main issue, though is that people's bands are sometime more like some fashion accessory then an expression of anything. They don't have anything to actually say.

I don't actually use any IRs typically, but do have UA Ox, which is a lot of fun. It also emulates at least some of the non-linearities that IRs don't, such as cone cry and the kind of break-up associated with older speakers.

I still believe that there's nothing like the real thing, when it comes to amps and cabs. However, if you don't try new things yourself, you will never know what they are actually capable/not capable of.
Old 5 days ago
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post

Who knows?

What I know is that my interest in newly released commercial music - of all kinds - has never been less.
Absolutely quotable.
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