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Guitar Recording is Out of Tune!
Old 9th August 2019
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Guitar Recording is Out of Tune!

Hey guys, not sure if I posted in the right section.
Last week, I was recording guitars for a keyboardist. I suggested to use double tracking, playing Strat on the L and Tele same thing again on the R, then hard panning. Unfortunately, I was told my rhythm guitars were out of tune.
Actually I care about tuning a lot and almost have OCD. BTW, I used TC Polytune 2 MiNi. Every time before recording session, I would check the 12th intonation first, and both guitars were perfectly in tune by themselves. Also, the guitars were in tune perfectly before each take. Besides, I tried to press the strings as even as possible.
I can hear the rhythm guitars are slightly out of tune with the bass (I think it is Midi bass). Is using different guitars for double tracking a bad idea? Is this normal/ acceptable? Or is it just the nature of guitar, never really in tune?
Here's a quick demo, please have a listen:
https://soundcloud.com/fender-marshall/out-of-tune
Old 9th August 2019
  #2
Lives for gear
 

Based on my very scientific listening through my phone’s speaker (sarcasm) I can’t detect anything offensive tuning wise?

Doubling with different guitars is fine and common. I personally would always evaluate it song by song, and part by part...is it really necessary/adding anything, or does it sound better without it? It’s never going to be naturally perfect, timing or tuning, but it ought to be close or it will not sound great. When done right it can sometimes take on a “chorus” type sound. With guitar I always insist on tuning before each take, but while checking 12th fret for intonation is fine, I would always check open strings too...and the range of notes you are using are worth a look. If you aren’t perfectly intonated then being perfectly in tune at the 12th fret would mean you are still out of tune elsewhere. It goes without saying that if you change strings then you should be checking intonation as well. Guitar designs are imperfect and each have their own set of quirks, but I’m always a little suspect of a whammy bar equipped guitar’s tuning and intonation, some people struggle with getting these set up right, even when locked...and even then a little wiggle is all it takes and you need to check your tuning.

It’s also possible the midi bass could have some kind of slight detuning or modulation, you may check the tuning on that just for grins.
Old 9th August 2019
  #3
I'll second the notion that MIDI instruments and VIs are not always perfectly pitch-calibrated. (Also, because of peculiarities of individual instruments/sample sets, some notes may be smack on while other notes show some 'provocative' overtones when they're pitch shifted. That can make things sound 'out-of-tune' even when spot checking individual notes with pitch analysis or a tuner shows the fundamental is on the money.)

FWIW, while I didn't go to the mat listening and relistening to this (and I certainly don't have anything close to what people talk about when they say 'perfect pitch'), I did listen a few times. For my money, the rhythm guitars sound fine. (If it was one of my projects, which often use MIDI bass even though I'm a reasonable bass player and have a fretless I know how to use, I MIGHT futz around with the tuning of the bass instrument. Maybe. But just a little, it's not trainwreck off by any stretch.)

The only other iffy bit I find is the seating of the electric lead (pitch-wise)... the opening figure feels... just a bit suspect -- maybe it's harmonic context, it's a provocative move -- but I can't help but have a slight twinge that the whole solo feels just the tiniest bit out, pitchwise.

TBH, it sounds overall pretty good and I could imagine it sounding just fine with everything in place.
Old 9th August 2019
  #4
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

The guitars sound fine to me, but there's very little keyboard in that mix. Given that the client is the keyboardist, I'd bet his mix is going to have more keys in it than OP's version. How does the tuning sound then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
The only other iffy bit I find is the seating of the electric lead (pitch-wise)... the opening figure feels... just a bit suspect -- maybe it's harmonic context, it's a provocative move -- but I can't help but have a slight twinge that the whole solo feels just the tiniest bit out, pitchwise.
The tuning of the solo doesn't really bump me, I just think it's too loud and too dry and the playing could use more spirit. But then I grew up on Beatles records, where iffily-tuned lead guitar with lots of Beatlish attitude was a regular feature.
Old 9th August 2019
  #5
Here for the gear
 

I really appreciate you guys' relplies!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kslight View Post
Based on my very scientific listening through my phone’s speaker (sarcasm) I can’t detect anything offensive tuning wise?

Doubling with different guitars is fine and common. I personally would always evaluate it song by song, and part by part...is it really necessary/adding anything, or does it sound better without it? It’s never going to be naturally perfect, timing or tuning, but it ought to be close or it will not sound great. When done right it can sometimes take on a “chorus” type sound. With guitar I always insist on tuning before each take, but while checking 12th fret for intonation is fine, I would always check open strings too...and the range of notes you are using are worth a look. If you aren’t perfectly intonated then being perfectly in tune at the 12th fret would mean you are still out of tune elsewhere. It goes without saying that if you change strings then you should be checking intonation as well. Guitar designs are imperfect and each have their own set of quirks, but I’m always a little suspect of a whammy bar equipped guitar’s tuning and intonation, some people struggle with getting these set up right, even when locked...and even then a little wiggle is all it takes and you need to check your tuning.

It’s also possible the midi bass could have some kind of slight detuning or modulation, you may check the tuning on that just for grins.
Kslight, very detailed. . Although I don't play this style any more, because I'm a blues guy now, I started with Led Zeppelin/ACDC. Considering the keyboardist has less experience of rock, so that I tried to make some input. I learnt the doubling thing from Youtube, not sure if doubling is worth for this project, but it does add some dimesions.
In terms of tuning, I almost have OCD about it. Yes, before each session, the first thing I would do is double checking the setup, and my preference is very factory like: relief (0.010"), action (1st fret 0.020" & 12th fret 4/64"), and especially intonation (open string vs 12th fret), which was perfect on all three guitars, Strat/Tele for rhythm and Les Paul for lead. The whammy system was blocked on Strat like what Clapton does, super tight flat on the top of the body, almost a hardtail.
I can't guarentte if it's 100% midi bass or even with any modulation, but I know the key player doesn't play bass. And for an blues old dog, , digital is weird----- except for recording, so convinient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I'll second the notion that MIDI instruments and VIs are not always perfectly pitch-calibrated. (Also, because of peculiarities of individual instruments/sample sets, some notes may be smack on while other notes show some 'provocative' overtones when they're pitch shifted. That can make things sound 'out-of-tune' even when spot checking individual notes with pitch analysis or a tuner shows the fundamental is on the money.)

FWIW, while I didn't go to the mat listening and relistening to this (and I certainly don't have anything close to what people talk about when they say 'perfect pitch'), I did listen a few times. For my money, the rhythm guitars sound fine. (If it was one of my projects, which often use MIDI bass even though I'm a reasonable bass player and have a fretless I know how to use, I MIGHT futz around with the tuning of the bass instrument. Maybe. But just a little, it's not trainwreck off by any stretch.)

The only other iffy bit I find is the seating of the electric lead (pitch-wise)... the opening figure feels... just a bit suspect -- maybe it's harmonic context, it's a provocative move -- but I can't help but have a slight twinge that the whole solo feels just the tiniest bit out, pitchwise.

TBH, it sounds overall pretty good and I could imagine it sounding just fine with everything in place.
I'm new into digital recording, I play gigs sometimes though. No one ever told ever me there were tuning issues. Frustrating for the recording, but theblue1, you made me relaxed a bit.
For the lead, I used a Epiphone Les Paul. Maybe shorter scale length and lack of tension introduce more intonation problems? Don't know. I haven't play a LP for years until last week

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
The guitars sound fine to me, but there's very little keyboard in that mix. Given that the client is the keyboardist, I'd bet his mix is going to have more keys in it than OP's version. How does the tuning sound then?



The tuning of the solo doesn't really bump me, I just think it's too loud and too dry and the playing could use more spirit. But then I grew up on Beatles records, where iffily-tuned lead guitar with lots of Beatlish attitude was a regular feature.
Brent Hahn, you are correct, all I got was one MP3 backing track including unbalanced quiet key,loud bass and drum. Base on it, this mix was roughly done by me very quickly, only for the purpose of this demostration, pretty dry, some EQs, a little delay on the lead, and a touch of short reverb on the dual rhythm.
On the other hand, the final mix surprised me: the rhythm guitars are turned down a lot because of the "tuning issue". What really shocked me was, the lead guitar has been reamplifiered by DAW's plug-in, because "without reamping, your guitar tone was totally useless"! I have to admit, the original tone was on the muddy side, because my gears were super cheap and boomy. However, I always believe the tone is from the hand. After simply low cut, in one second, the tone wasvery useful. But after the reamping thing, the tone sounds like......
If my memory is correct, Steve Lukather said, there once was a producer put his already distorted guitar track into another amp......and that was part of the reasons why he quit session jobs......

Last edited by FenderMarshall; 9th August 2019 at 07:07 PM.. Reason: Grammer mistakes
Old 10th August 2019
  #6
Gear Maniac
 
stixstudios's Avatar
I listened to the sample a few times and couldn't hear any real problems with the rhythm guitars.

However, the lead part does sound a bit off - not sure if it's pitch, or it almost sounds like it's in a different key?

If you are going to track the same guitar part L/R it might be worth playing one of them up the neck, or a different version of the same chord, which would give you a much wider sound.

Cheers.
Old 10th August 2019
  #7
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stixstudios View Post
I listened to the sample a few times and couldn't hear any real problems with the rhythm guitars.

However, the lead part does sound a bit off - not sure if it's pitch, or it almost sounds like it's in a different key?

If you are going to track the same guitar part L/R it might be worth playing one of them up the neck, or a different version of the same chord, which would give you a much wider sound.

Cheers.
This is the bridge section and key suddenly goes up by a semitone near the end. If you mean the whole lead part is almost off the key, I'm suspecting my ears now......:
Honestly, the compostion is not very mature and the arranger only asked for playing power chords. IMHO, there are not many choices of playing power chords in inversions. The intro of "Smoke on the Water" may be an exception, a strings of 4ths. Thanks for your input though.
Old 10th August 2019
  #8
Gear Maniac
 
stixstudios's Avatar
At around the 30sec mark it sounds like a key change? I'm not suggesting it's wrong, but it sounds a bit odd - maybe it's just me
Old 10th August 2019
  #9
Look up "Temperament", the guitar is inherently an out of tune instrument unless you have a perfect or even temperament neck (which looks and plays very funky). You can make some adjustments to the overall tuning to minimize the effect (see Buzz Feiten tuning, or even tuning for a specific key Pianette style as the RHCP have been known to do for certain songs) but it'll always be there as you move around the neck. It's a part of the charm of the instrument and you and anyone you play with will have to accept it for what it is unless you're willing to spend a lot of money and learning time changing your instrument to resolve this (only to then be out of tune with any other guitarists or bassists).
Old 10th August 2019
  #10
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie View Post
Look up "Temperament", the guitar is inherently an out of tune instrument unless you have a perfect or even temperament neck (which looks and plays very funky). You can make some adjustments to the overall tuning to minimize the effect (see Buzz Feiten tuning, or even tuning for a specific key Pianette style as the RHCP have been known to do for certain songs) but it'll always be there as you move around the neck. It's a part of the charm of the instrument and you and anyone you play with will have to accept it for what it is unless you're willing to spend a lot of money and learning time changing your instrument to resolve this (only to then be out of tune with any other guitarists or bassists).
Yeah, totally agreed. I've seen Steve Vai having those funky frets on his Jem 7V, pretty cool; Suhr has option of BF tuning; Musicman uses compensated nut. All cool, I always look up to people who are so dedicated to their ****! But I'm just an old blues dog. Those old records are not perfect, tuning, playing, recording, but they are beautiful!
Old 10th August 2019
  #11
Gear Addict
There's nothing wrong with the guitar tuning on this at all. I wouldn't have an issue with it. The only possible bit is around the 3rd chord after the crossfade but it's so slight I'm only picking it up because I'm trying to find a tuning issue.

I use Shreddage Bass for programming bass sometimes, I have to tune it after programming because some notes are 20cent sharp or flat at times. Why on earth they didn't just tune up each fret before playing I don't know but VST's can be out of tune.
Old 10th August 2019
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by FenderMarshall View Post
I really appreciate you guys' relplies!



Kslight, very detailed. . Although I don't play this style any more, because I'm a blues guy now, I started with Led Zeppelin/ACDC. Considering the keyboardist has less experience of rock, so that I tried to make some input. I learnt the doubling thing from Youtube, not sure if doubling is worth for this project, but it does add some dimesions.
In terms of tuning, I almost have OCD about it. Yes, before each session, the first thing I would do is double checking the setup, and my preference is very factory like: relief (0.010"), action (1st fret 0.020" & 12th fret 4/64"), and especially intonation (open string vs 12th fret), which was perfect on all three guitars, Strat/Tele for rhythm and Les Paul for lead. The whammy system was blocked on Strat like what Clapton does, super tight flat on the top of the body, almost a hardtail.
I can't guarentte if it's 100% midi bass or even with any modulation, but I know the key player doesn't play bass. And for an blues old dog, , digital is weird----- except for recording, so convinient.



I'm new into digital recording, I play gigs sometimes though. No one ever told ever me there were tuning issues. Frustrating for the recording, but theblue1, you made me relaxed a bit.
For the lead, I used a Epiphone Les Paul. Maybe shorter scale length and lack of tension introduce more intonation problems? Don't know. I haven't play a LP for years until last week



Brent Hahn, you are correct, all I got was one MP3 backing track including unbalanced quiet key,loud bass and drum. Base on it, this mix was roughly done by me very quickly, only for the purpose of this demostration, pretty dry, some EQs, a little delay on the lead, and a touch of short reverb on the dual rhythm.
On the other hand, the final mix surprised me: the rhythm guitars are turned down a lot because of the "tuning issue". What really shocked me was, the lead guitar has been reamplifiered by DAW's plug-in, because "without reamping, your guitar tone was totally useless"! I have to admit, the original tone was on the muddy side, because my gears were super cheap and boomy. However, I always believe the tone is from the hand. After simply low cut, in one second, the tone wasvery useful. But after the reamping thing, the tone sounds like......
If my memory is correct, Steve Lukather said, there once was a producer put his already distorted guitar track into another amp......and that was part of the reasons why he quit session jobs......
On the relax and make music front, I think I'd underline Brent H's citation of his experience listening to early Beatles records. Good hooks, catchy tunes, sharp words, and spirited performances often beat out slick professionalism.

Let the music lead you and the sound will follow...
Old 10th August 2019
  #13
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theillusionist View Post
There's nothing wrong with the guitar tuning on this at all. I wouldn't have an issue with it. The only possible bit is around the 3rd chord after the crossfade but it's so slight I'm only picking it up because I'm trying to find a tuning issue.

I use Shreddage Bass for programming bass sometimes, I have to tune it after programming because some notes are 20cent sharp or flat at times. Why on earth they didn't just tune up each fret before playing I don't know but VST's can be out of tune.
Glad to know the bass thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
On the relax and make music front, I think I'd underline Brent H's citation of his experience listening to early Beatles records. Good hooks, catchy tunes, sharp words, and spirited performances often beat out slick professionalism.

Let the music lead you and the sound will follow...
Couldn't agree with you more!
Old 11th August 2019
  #14
Well, I had a listen and the rhythm guitars did sound a little bit sharp to me, that's why I avoid tuning the instrument by itself, I prefer to tune to the context and the part being played when recording, I also prefer to use my tuner in strobe mode, they are more accurate, also a perfectly tuned guitar may sound weird so you have to compensate.
Old 11th August 2019
  #15
It's probably not completely inappropriate to note that, like all equal-tempered instruments (fretted instruments, xylophones and other mallet instruments, standardly intonated keyboards, etc), the ONLY intervals that are strictly in perfect tuning with each other on a standard fretted guitar are octave intervals.

Perfect fourths and fifths are close behind -- only a couple cents off. But 6ths and 3rds range from about 14 to 16 cents out of perfect harmony (when the instrument is perfectly tuned to the 12 Tone Equal Temperament standard), major 7ths and minor 2nds are about 12 cents out -- and tritone intervals are over 17 cents out!

And that's why using 'harmonics' to tune a guitar never come out quite right -- the 12TET perfect fourth interval is 2 cents sharper than the purely harmonic 'Just' interval.

So, for instance, sometimes I will use a harmonic to get in the ballpark when tuning up from the bass on the fourth interval pairs -- and then nudge up by my guesstimate of 2 cents. Happily, my phone is almost always handy with my favored (but no longer available at a reasonable price) tuner (glad I bought the then-reasonably priced pay-for version before they moved to a strictly subscription basis).
Old 4 weeks ago
  #16
There are factors at play, you have to set up intonation with a very accurate tuner, you also have to work on your touch and make it very consistent or you'll have tuning problems, if you hit the strings too hard your guitar will sound sharp, if you use palm muting you have to be careful not to place your hand in the wrong place or else you'll go sharp too.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #17
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kennybro's Avatar
Yeah, the rhythms sound a little pitchy to me, but I think it's how they are played. I can't pin down exactly why. It's certainly too cut and dried in performance; trying to be too precise and sterile. Loosen up the performance and let it fly. It almost sounds programmed, and the sample is going a bit weird.

Put some humanity in the performance, and tiny anomalies will become assets instead of liabilities.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #18
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Aside from what’s been mentioned about keyboards/synths and tuning differences variances instability etc. which is great advice!
And aside from perhaps some slight pitchiness in the bends on the leads or choice of notes .. which is somewhat subjective.. and maybe some chord changes/timing..

Today’s listener has been programmed to hear music perfectly in pitch and time all the time. Otherwise it doesn’t sound right to them.
This track it’s self is very rigid and perfectly in tune minus a couple of things that aren’t horrible by any means.
Keyboard players anymore play instruments that are always perfectly in tune so they hear these inconsistencies really well.
So first youll need to ask the client exactly where It sounds out of tune.

But the main thing I want to point is that it’s an organ and guitar playing the same chords in the same register which generally just doesn’t sound good!
Also, an organ sound generally has a bit of an inherent kind of modulation or pitchiness to the sound.
And when you put guitar chords in the same register over it you’re going to hear some beating between the frequencies, kind of out of tune sound.
Same with most keyboard sounds/synths and any fretted isntrument as mentioned elsewhere in this thread.
I’m assuming that’s what you and/or your client is refering to here as out of tune.

So there’s creative ways around this from a playing and arrangement stand point.
Different inversions, different octaves/ registers, playing single notes or diads, or arpegiations etc from a playing standpoint.
Or, you can just accept it.
You can have counterpoint and instruments playing off of eachother, and it can sound great. But when it’s just straight forward long organ/keyboard chords that span across all bars of the song, like the track you’ve been given to record guitar on.
And then a simple guitar chord progression that just follows what the organ is doin..
It might not sound in tune, not to mention it might sound very exciting.
No offense.

I would reference the Allman Brothers Dreams for how guitars and organs can play off eachother together really well but don’t step on each others toes.
Or heck, the Allman Brothers in general for this.
The early stuff mainly.

And then, Boston’s Foreplay/Longtime, intro :30-40 ish.
Organ and guitar.
It doesn’t sound in tune.
Like that would never make the charts or get newly played on radio these days. It wouldn’t even get past an a&r.
But I would reference those tracks and others with your client and let them know of the realistic expectations. Ask the client for references of somgs with similar instrumentation, etc.
And maybe it’s just a learning process for one or both of you.
Obviously this is a different genre/style track than the tracks I mentioned. Maybe like a little country. But the principles are pretty much the same.



You might “fix” the organ and guitar relationship in the mix (to a degree) by panning, eq, and first and foremost volume. Where the organ may be a lot less prominent or vice versa.
Or the organ might just play a bass note or the 5th or 3rd. While the guitar plays the chords or vice versa.
This might sound somewhat sparse and empty at first. You’ll have to get creative to fill it up, if you choose to go this direction.
That’s a whole production discussion there.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #19
Gear Head
 

Seeing as you are tracking two different instruments playing the “same” part (there are surely minor if imperceptible variances) could it be comb filtering where the two signals combined are not meshing well? You could have a very small delay (not in the effect sense) between the two signals that it is not glaringly obvious, but creates the “off” feel that people are describing.

I also agree with Tnevz. When double or triple tracking, playing the same chord inversions or the same notes in the same position can be offputting. Look at Rhoad’s tones on Blizzard of Oz. His use of double/triple or even quadruple tracking the same exact guitar parts resulted (in my opinion) in a less than stellar tone that his audio engineer did not know how to fully compensate for. By the time they recorded Diary of a Madman, they had figured out how to better mix his multiple takes.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #20
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnevz View Post
Aside from what’s been mentioned about keyboards/synths and tuning differences variances instability etc. which is great advice!
And aside from perhaps some slight pitchiness in the bends on the leads or choice of notes .. which is somewhat subjective.. and maybe some chord changes/timing..

Today’s listener has been programmed to hear music perfectly in pitch and time all the time. Otherwise it doesn’t sound right to them.
This track it’s self is very rigid and perfectly in tune minus a couple of things that aren’t horrible by any means.
Keyboard players anymore play instruments that are always perfectly in tune so they hear these inconsistencies really well.
So first youll need to ask the client exactly where It sounds out of tune.

But the main thing I want to point is that it’s an organ and guitar playing the same chords in the same register which generally just doesn’t sound good!
Also, an organ sound generally has a bit of an inherent kind of modulation or pitchiness to the sound.
And when you put guitar chords in the same register over it you’re going to hear some beating between the frequencies, kind of out of tune sound.
Same with most keyboard sounds/synths and any fretted isntrument as mentioned elsewhere in this thread.
I’m assuming that’s what you and/or your client is refering to here as out of tune.

So there’s creative ways around this from a playing and arrangement stand point.
Different inversions, different octaves/ registers, playing single notes or diads, or arpegiations etc from a playing standpoint.
Or, you can just accept it.
You can have counterpoint and instruments playing off of eachother, and it can sound great. But when it’s just straight forward long organ/keyboard chords that span across all bars of the song, like the track you’ve been given to record guitar on.
And then a simple guitar chord progression that just follows what the organ is doin..
It might not sound in tune, not to mention it might sound very exciting.
No offense.

I would reference the Allman Brothers Dreams for how guitars and organs can play off eachother together really well but don’t step on each others toes.
Or heck, the Allman Brothers in general for this.
The early stuff mainly.

And then, Boston’s Foreplay/Longtime, intro :30-40 ish.
Organ and guitar.
It doesn’t sound in tune.
Like that would never make the charts or get newly played on radio these days. It wouldn’t even get past an a&r.
But I would reference those tracks and others with your client and let them know of the realistic expectations. Ask the client for references of somgs with similar instrumentation, etc.
And maybe it’s just a learning process for one or both of you.
Obviously this is a different genre/style track than the tracks I mentioned. Maybe like a little country. But the principles are pretty much the same.



You might “fix” the organ and guitar relationship in the mix (to a degree) by panning, eq, and first and foremost volume. Where the organ may be a lot less prominent or vice versa.
Or the organ might just play a bass note or the 5th or 3rd. While the guitar plays the chords or vice versa.
This might sound somewhat sparse and empty at first. You’ll have to get creative to fill it up, if you choose to go this direction.
That’s a whole production discussion there.
Tnevz,really apprieciate your detailed and professional reply! Usually I'm awared of playing in different register from other instruments. However, I wasn't on this project for some reasons: I thought power chords were only effective on low guitar strings and I was given only one day to finish the recording including writing a solo. Ashamed anyway! But I've learnt a lot from this experience and especially you guys, and I'll try to be more creative next time rather than robotic. BTW, I'm always a fan of Boston!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #21
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Glad to help brother!

Just trying to save you and anyone else some time and headaches trying to figure out what was going on.
We all forget stuff like that at times, especially under pressure and time constraints .
Guitar sounds really good though, whatd you use on the track? If you don’t mind me asking.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #22
I'm a bit late to the party and have not had a chance to hear the clip yet but I do have a couple of general suggestions.

First, you'd do well to read the Jack Endino article on tuning. You can find a link to it in the "resources" sticky at thje top of the forum.

Second, guitars never play perfectly in tune. It's physics and is explained in the article.

Third, just because you got the instrument "perfectly" in tune (or as good as is possible) that doesn't mean that it will play in tune in the song. This can be particularly egregious in strummed rhythm guitar parts. The problem is that when a string is picked or strummed it will go a bit sharp on the attack of the note and settle down to a flatter sustained pitch for the duration of the note. The amount that it bends sharp is proportional to the force (volume) with which the string is struck. The more vigorously it's played, the more off the attack will be compared to the sustained note. This can cause problems, especially when doubling rhythm parts in the same register. Using a lighter touch and a thinner pick can help, as will voicing the two parts on different parts of the neck with the with the concomitant differences in pitch and chordal inversions.

Fourth, there's always the matter of pressure from the fretting hand, which can bend notes out of tune. This is a greater problem with lighter strings and also with shorter scale length (Les Paul compared to Fender) because of the reduced string tension.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #23
Gear Maniac
 

I haven't listened closely to the recording, but..

1) "All in one" keyboards made by Yamaha, Kawai etc. have tuning temperaments built in, and sometimes default to stretch tunings.

2) VSTis will also have temperaments

3) VSTis that *don't* have temperaments can be out of tune

4) VSTis based on samples can have *individual notes* out of tune

5) VSTis based on samples can have sketchy pitch at different points in their ADSR

6) "Kool" bass patches sometimes have... zany pitch swings



Anecdotally, when playing with a All in One Keyboard -kinda player, the "mysterious settings in the menu" can be askew - even the master tuning.

If the keyboard player can't positively answer if any of that is happening, or doesn't understand what it means, or you don't know what it means, then... things can happen. Also, if the keyboard player doesn't know the pitfalls of equal temperament, or you don't, ... problems can happen.


As a guitar player there are going to be situations when recording where you've got to make concessions specific to what you're recording. Playing with keyboard players forces the issue.
Old 1 week ago
  #24
Gear Maniac
 

What John E. said is correct. Guitars are not perfect and neither are guitar players. The concept of playing the same part twice and hard panning is effective, provided the part is played true both times. So, if the recording is noticeably out of tune it literally could be one string or 1 particular note (fret ware or the way it's pressed) etc etc. If the part is good otherwise nothing is hurt by examining it with Melodyne and fixing the offending note(s). You would not be the first person to fix a sour note - and Melodyne excels at this.
Old 1 week ago
  #25
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audioforce's Avatar
 

This thread is all over the place with overthinking and wiseacreing.

Doubling guitars is not a mystery or a black art.

You do have to be a good enough guitar player to do it.

So you play the first part, and you play it right, and you play it in tune, and you fix any parts that need fixing. The first pass should stand on its own.

And then you do the same thing again on another track. You can play along with the first track in the cans too, or not, whatever you need.

You play the second pass the same way as you played the first [i.e. you nail it].

But.........The two parts are not going to be exactly the same. They aren't supposed to be. That's what makes it sound good.

Normally better to use the same guitar and amp for both passes. Same sound, doubled.
Old 1 week ago
  #26
Lives for gear
 
kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioforce View Post
Doubling guitars is not a mystery or a black art.
Right... This thread is overanalyzed. Anally retentive to the max. Too much thought put to this. It's rock music, FGS. Put some ass in it, and play the song with some guts and emotion, and don't obsess over microscopic tuning anomalies.

If the thing about the arrangement that stands out is microscopic guitar anomalies, you need a new guitar arrangement that will overpower the minutia with emotional performance. Re-arrange the part in a manner that works in the context of this song, and loosen up a bit.

Sorry to be blunt and abrasive, but this stuff simply does not warrant this level of mental introspection and macro examination. Getting a new tuner, changing your tuning style, new guitar, etc.. is not going to fix things. Brent hit on it in post 4, and Blue nailed it down in post 12.

Last edited by kennybro; 1 week ago at 02:58 AM..
Old 1 week ago
  #27
Lives for gear
 
audioforce's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
Right... This thread is overanalyzed.


Brent hit on it in post 4, and Blue nailed it down in post 12.
But what about me? Me too! I did good too, right? .

Note easy, step by step instructions from audioforce's Big Note Songbook.

: )
Old 1 week ago
  #28
Lives for gear
 
kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioforce View Post
But what about me? Me too! I did good too, right? .

: )
Haha! yeah man!
Old 1 week ago
  #29
Gear Head
 

What was the outcome for the OP? Did he figure this all out? Did his band mates confiscate his gear and lock it in a closet? Inquiring minds want to know.
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