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good amp for both guitar and bass recording
Old 8th August 2019
  #1
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good amp for both guitar and bass recording

for stoner doom stuff im looking for one amp that I can record both bass and guitar will be using fuzz pedals. I know ampeg is probably the way to go. but which one. also solid state orange bass amp crush I think how would they do.

$500 budget so that limits stuff I have a mxr blue box and a dod carcosa fuzz

there is a ampeg b25b head and b15 cab for that price locally. how would that work

any other suggestions
Old 8th August 2019
  #2
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Moonwhistle's Avatar
 

Ampeg V4
Laney AOR
Bassman 100
Fender Dual Showman
etc.
Old 9th August 2019
  #3
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Recorded bass doesn't always have to be loud. I've used a Fender Concert and a Vox AC15 quite a bit for bass.
Old 9th August 2019
  #4
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audioforce's Avatar
 

V4

Bassman


Probably not the b25 for guitar.

But, like Brent mentioned, in studio you can "get away" with a lot of stuff for bass, if you keep the volume down. [a little different sound, though, bass through smaller guitar amps, works for some stuff]. If you're talking live, then the V4 or the Bassman will do it. Don’t know about a newer baseman for guitar, though.
Old 9th August 2019
  #5
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer81 View Post
for stoner doom stuff im looking for one amp that I can record both bass and guitar will be using fuzz pedals. I know ampeg is probably the way to go. but which one. also solid state orange bass amp crush I think how would they do.

$500 budget so that limits stuff I have a mxr blue box and a dod carcosa fuzz

there is a ampeg b25b head and b15 cab for that price locally. how would that work

any other suggestions
THD Uni-valve or similar
Old 10th August 2019
  #6
Tube based amps are designed thin in the low end. SS amps properly designed will have that missing depth but will not sound great with guitars. You really need two amps. That's why no accomplished acts try to do this.
Old 10th August 2019
  #7
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Tube based amps are designed thin in the low end. SS amps properly designed will have that missing depth but will not sound great with guitars. You really need two amps. That's why no accomplished acts try to do this.
A bit dogmatic, don't you think?

I'll freely admit to being an unaccomplished act. But I "try to do this" routinely with 1 X 12 tube combo amps, and I think it works and I've got clips to back it up.

I'm guessing that accomplished acts don't do it because they don't have to. They've got nice amps and a studio budget, not 500 bucks and a bedroom.
Old 10th August 2019
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Tube based amps are designed thin in the low end. SS amps properly designed will have that missing depth but will not sound great with guitars. You really need two amps. That's why no accomplished acts try to do this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
A bit dogmatic, don't you think?

I'll freely admit to being an unaccomplished act. But I "try to do this" routinely with 1 X 12 tube combo amps, and I think it works and I've got clips to back it up.

I'm guessing that accomplished acts don't do it because they don't have to. They've got nice amps and a studio budget, not 500 bucks and a bedroom.
I have to agree with Brent on this. I've worked with "accomplished acts" and at least a few bass players using Bi-Amped hi power SS rigs or Mini Brute Polytone amps whose jaws dropped playing through something as unlikely as a Marshall 1959 guitar amp, and that includes some renowned Country and Jazz players.
Old 10th August 2019
  #9
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I'd get a good tube guitar amp like a Vox AC15 (I love the tone of this amp) then use a DI to record the bass direct since most recording engineers record the bass direct anyway.
Old 10th August 2019
  #10
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by numero6 View Post
I'd get a good tube guitar amp like a Vox AC15 (I love the tone of this amp) then use a DI to record the bass direct since most recording engineers record the bass direct anyway.
So you'd have a perfectly good AC15 sitting there, and just assume you can't record a bass with it?
Old 10th August 2019
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
So you'd have a perfectly good AC15 sitting there, and just assume you can't record a bass with it?
Brent,
For bass, do you put the small guitar amps through a bass speaker (assuming one is handy)? Open back guitar speakers tend to fall off almost completely not far south of 100hz.
Old 11th August 2019
  #12
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
Brent,
For bass, do you put the small guitar amps through a bass speaker (assuming one is handy)? Open back guitar speakers tend to fall off almost completely not far south of 100hz.
I don't think I've ever done that, or that the 100Hz thing ever occurred to me. But the nice thing about being ignorant is that doing it wrong doesn't bother me. :-)

Here's something that was done with a bass through an AC15.
Attached Files

Buck_McCoy_Love_Tycoon.mp3 (6.69 MB, 1172 views)

Old 11th August 2019
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I don't think I've ever done that, or that the 100Hz thing ever occurred to me. But the nice thing about being ignorant is that doing it wrong doesn't bother me. :-)

Here's something that was done with a bass through an AC15.
S
Ahhh... the Epstein theme song...
My soloed subwoofer tells me there is some (not a lot) of clean, round bass below 80, and it is nicely balanced with the kick.
It certainly fits the song and the mix. Interesting idea, I hope to use it some day.
Old 11th August 2019
  #14
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
Interesting idea, I hope to use it some day.
For me, it wasn't an interesting idea so much as it was sitting right there. I base a lot of gear and mic choices choices on proximity.
Old 11th August 2019
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
For me, it wasn't an interesting idea so much as it was sitting right there. I base a lot of gear and mic choices choices on proximity.
But if it sounded wrong, I’m sure you would reach a little farther for the next-closest option. I like the feel and sound of that mix. Don’t act all humble. You aren't just throwing paint at a canvas.
Old 11th August 2019
  #16
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
But if it sounded wrong, I’m sure you would reach a little farther for the next-closest option. I like the feel and sound of that mix. Don’t act all humble. You aren't just throwing paint at a canvas.
I can easily imagine Brent rolling one of these bad boys over in such a case




... but then again, one of the most influential bass players of all time, Carol Kay, used straight up guitar amps, even open back Super Reverbs . If you don't know just how influential she was check this out... actually even if you do know you'll probably like this.

Old 11th August 2019
  #17
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Carol Kaye uses a pick, too. They probably took her direct a lot or mostly.


Best,

audioforce
Old 11th August 2019
  #18
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Moonwhistle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioforce View Post
Carol Kaye uses a pick, too. They probably took her direct a lot or mostly.


Best,

audioforce
Carol Kaye was almost always recorded direct but with an amp in the room too.
Old 11th August 2019
  #19
Carol Kaye: Session Legend Interview (full)

I think Jim has a good point that there are limitations to using one amp for guitar and bass; not to say good sounds cannot be achieved, but physics...

In testing, guitar through bass amp always sounds a little bit filtered - like an impedance mismatch - whilst the bass kinda bulges the low end on the guitar amp. Sometimes it works but I wouldn't like it to be a restriction.

I enjoyed playing bass, electric, electro-acoustic, semi-acoustic, and lapsteel through the Orange Terror Bass (tube input/solid-state output) and OBC-112 cab. Nice size/weight for portability too.
Old 11th August 2019
  #20
I used tube bass amps back in the day because that's all you could buy. Touring with great acts with good budgets showed their limitations. Natt Watts 1980 bass rig with Stevie Wonder was a 2x18" Meyer cab and two UPA's sitting on top, powered by a pair of 800 watt pro power amps. The low end was incredible. I had to tape down the guitar stands and pedal board onto the stage or they would fly forwards. The extra bass had to be attached at the headstock or it would fly right out of the guitar stand and land on the stage. Yes, I wore earplugs back then, the only tour member that did.

SVT's will not do that. They roll off at 90 hz in their preamps. The SVT power amp will do 40 hz. Bassman amps are also thin. Bigger caps can fix that. Guitar and bass amps are such different beasts I have a dedicated amp for both because I never found any that could do both well.
Old 11th August 2019
  #21
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audioforce's Avatar
 

Before this thread turns into a debate about the obvious, why don't we just stipulate that dedicated bass amps are usually [obviously] designed / optimized for bass, but the OP asked for some suggestions as to amps he could use for both guitar and bass, and that there are some that could be used that way?

Sound reasonable?


Best,


audioforce
Old 12th August 2019
  #22
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vincentvangogo's Avatar
 

A Fender Twin, Vox AC30 or Selmer Treble and Bass would be my choices.
Old 12th August 2019
  #23
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer81 View Post
for stoner doom stuff im looking for one amp that I can record both bass and guitar will be using fuzz pedals. I know ampeg is probably the way to go. but which one. also solid state orange bass amp crush I think how would they do.

$500 budget so that limits stuff I have a mxr blue box and a dod carcosa fuzz

there is a ampeg b25b head and b15 cab for that price locally. how would that work

any other suggestions
I have 2 vintage b15's - neither is very suitable for guitar duties
In the past Hiwatt's, Showman's, Twins, would successfully used for double duty. None of these is $500.
Smaller amps (like the THD Univalve/Bi-Valve) with a lot of headroom will do both duties, can have their sound varied by changing tubes on the fly, and small/big enough to work in the studio or on a small gig. They also take pedals very well which will increase your palette.
There is also the digital amps these days but I don't know how well cheaper ones (under $500) would perform.
Old 12th August 2019
  #24
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audioforce's Avatar
 

Obvious choice is V4. Almost same amp as V4B.

V4 may actually be better than V4B for bass. : )


Best,

audioforce
Old 12th August 2019
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonwhistle View Post
Carol Kaye was almost always recorded direct but with an amp in the room too.
Is that definite? I never heard that.
Old 12th August 2019
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentvangogo View Post
Is that definite? I never heard that.
I think its pretty much what she says in an interview she did. But you can check it.

Honestly, its prolly gonna be a matter of who's story you want to believe.

I think she also says they never used any eq or compression on her. Maybe going in. : )

But, normally, you take bass direct and mic'd, both. And she wasn't the artist or the producer or the engineer. She was the hired gun bass player. No disrespect, she's good at it and deserves a lot of credit I would think.


Best,

audioforce
Old 12th August 2019
  #27
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When I started as a gofer at Crystal in Hollywood, we had tracking sessions which occasionally included Kaye, and more often Jamerson. I don’t recall that Crystal used any direct boxes on anything at that time (1974/75). Everything was mic’d, and early synths were patched in in the control room. Jamerson used an Ampeg tube flip amp (where the head is flipped over and was transported in the speaker box). I don’t remember what Kaye used. It is possible that some other gofer(s) happened to be working her sessions.
Old 12th August 2019
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
I have 2 vintage b15's - neither is very suitable for guitar duties
In the past Hiwatt's, Showman's, Twins, would successfully used for double duty. None of these is $500.
Absolutely agreed. The only reason I mentioned the B15 at all was to counter the idea that tube amps don't make good Bass Amps. Of course that depends a great deal on what tone you seek, but that doesn't negate the fact that there exists a lot of great Bass tracks made on tube gear even guitar amps and vice versa. Also, the limitations in the Studio are very different from those on a live stage.

Even live Tube Bass Amps can deliver although I agree that SVTs are not deep bass rigs. Gary Talent of the E Street Band for a time used 3 complete Mesa Bass 400 rigs even though I'm positive he was very familiar with high powered SS amps. The Mesas have substantially more low end than an SVT and a punch that's like getting hit in the chest with a Buick.

For a somewhat more modern tone, Tim Commerford of Rage Against the Machine used Mesa Bass 400s though he also relied on a fairly diverse pedal board and experimented with other amps after the early days.. He said he always liked "the growl".of the Mesas.

That's not to say there are no killer SS Bass rigs since it is very obvious there are, but again it depends a lot on what you're going for as well as what environment one is playing in..
Old 12th August 2019
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
When I started as a gofer at Crystal in Hollywood, we had tracking sessions which occasionally included Kaye, and more often Jamerson. I don’t recall that Crystal used any direct boxes on anything at that time (1974/75). Everything was mic’d, and early synths were patched in in the control room. Jamerson used an Ampeg tube flip amp (where the head is flipped over and was transported in the speaker box). I don’t remember what Kaye used. It is possible that some other gofer(s) happened to be working her sessions.
Not for nothin’ and all that, but are you saying crystal didn’t have a direct box? And taking bass direct along with the amp, if any, is almost knee-jerk. I mean why would you not, unless you’re out of tracks?

Best,

audioforce
Old 12th August 2019
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioforce View Post
Before this thread turns into a debate about the obvious, why don't we just stipulate that dedicated bass amps are usually [obviously] designed / optimized for bass, but the OP asked for some suggestions as to amps he could use for both guitar and bass, and that there are some that could be used that way?

Sound reasonable?


Best,


audioforce
No imposed stipulation on discussion; not reasonable.

OP is asking for advice.

We want Stevie Wonder live bass stories. Thanks, Jim!
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