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modern stage levels for guitar
Old 4 weeks ago
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
The stuff I snipped was good stuff but I have a question about the above. Granted, this mix was done before the mics on a drum kit resembled a small forest (in fact, to my ears and eyes I doubt there was a single dedicated drum mic) so they are a tad weak in the mix but still audible.

On what system did you listen to the video? That is an important qualifier question, I think, when comparing sounds/mixes reduced to WebM or mp4 on YouTube through amps/speakers all too common on most PCs... not to mention phones.
besides levels, direct sound/room/reverb don't match (at all imo)...

monitoring was via a pair of tannoy dmt10 plus a kh805 sub, on clair co-12 tops (sixteen boxes per hang) and a sub array (nine cs-218m subs) and a sennheiser hd-25 - mix was a bit more forgiving on the large rig (due to some room sound) but much less on the studio speakers and cans...

and no, data reduction imo doesn't account for much with this kind of music/mix.

however, if there wasn't any mic on drums (i didn't watch the video, i just listened to the audio), this would explain A LOT! (wasn't meant to put you down: it's just that this mix imo is unbalanced and not much refined...)
Old 4 weeks ago
  #212
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
besides levels, direct sound/room/reverb don't match (at all imo)...

monitoring was via a pair of tannoy dmt10 plus a kh805 sub, on clair co-12 tops (sixteen boxes per hang) and a sub array (nine cs-218m subs) and a sennheiser hd-25 - mix was a bit more forgiving on the large rig (due to some room sound) but much less on the studio speakers and cans...

and no, data reduction imo doesn't account for much with this kind of music/mix.

however, if there wasn't any mic on drums (i didn't watch the video but justlistened to audio), this would explain A LOT... (wasn't meant to put you down: it's just that this mix indeed does sound unbalanced and not much refined)
OK I see now. You misunderstood the purpose of my post and the example choice. I chose it exactly because it is so primitive. I wouldn't be surprised if there were only 2 or 3 FOH vocal mics onstage as the only sources though I can't even guess about recording mics, although there is not a second mic for Grace's vocals so it is likely just a simple "bleed" FOH board mix.

The precise point is that despite such an incredibly primitive setup, and including a lead guitar player using 2 cranked Twin reverb amps loaded each with 2 x JBL 12s that kind of stage SPL only resulted in a recording mix "only this bad", which frankly, I'll take any day over the kick heavy, buried guitar mixes at under 100db today..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
OK I see now. You misunderstood the purpose of my post and the example choice. I chose it exactly because it is so primitive. I wouldn't be surprised if there were only 2 or 3 FOH vocal mics onstage as the only sources though I can't even guess about recording mics, although there is not a second mic for Grace's vocals so it is likely just a simple "bleed" FOH board mix.

The precise point is that despite such an incredibly primitive setup, and including a lead guitar player using 2 cranked Twin reverb amps loaded each with 2 x JBL 12s that kind of stage SPL only resulted in a recording mix "only this bad", which frankly, I'll take any day over the kick heavy, buried guitar mixes at under 100db today..
got your point now - thx for elaborating.

btw: i'm always wondering about those 'engineers' who spend hours on kick and toms only to be in a rush for lead vocals towards the end of soundcheck - once up, the vocal mic/s then of course throw off the whole balance again, at least in loud stages...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #214
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
got your point now - thx for elaborating.
Elaborating a little more, I'd always mix like that if it got girls to dance like the one at 5:17 :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
btw: i'm always wondering about those 'engineers' who spend hours on kick and toms only to be in a rush for lead vocals towards the end of soundcheck - once up, the vocal mic/s then of course throw off the whole balance again, at least in loud stages...
Wow! Truer words were never spoken... and there's the key word - Balance. Balance that suits the material, the band and the room. Given that, if at all possible, their audience will find them.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #215
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I always say, I'm just trying to get a balance with drums. Amps keep getting smaller, but the drums don't change. They might even be louder than the old jazz kits rockers used.

http://www.wtv-zone.com/ruexperience...imiNYE69_R.jpg

(anybody know how to post a pic on this board?)

I also think that if you have to put amplified guitars in the monitors, you're doing it wrong. Fight me.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #216
Quote:
Originally Posted by L.A. Dude View Post
I always say, I'm just trying to get a balance with drums. Amps keep getting smaller, but the drums don't change. They might even be louder than the old jazz kits rockers used.

http://www.wtv-zone.com/ruexperience...imiNYE69_R.jpg

(anybody know how to post a pic on this board?)

I also think that if you have to put amplified guitars in the monitors, you're doing it wrong. Fight me.
Use the paperclip icon to post an attachment.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #217
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
I have noticed the same thing. Many club soundmen seem interested in kick drum, toms and bass, in that order. The seem to see guitar as competition for the vocals

I did what is probably going to be my last sound gig a couple of weeks ago, after over 40 years of live mixing. A lot of musicians I know were there, and several said that they were going to miss me because I did an "old school balanced mix" instead of the kick-oriented mix they get at many places now.

clip from the last show

YES. I noticed whenever a tom was hit at that show I was at not long ago, you could hear the entire frequency content of it above the bloated kick drum and bass for its entire duration. Which is simply not the point of a tom. They were probably sidechained to something.

Musicians around here would be spoiled to have you man.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #218
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i had to watch the video after reading your comment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
(...) I'd always mix like that if it got girls to dance like the one at 5:17 (...)
truer words were never spoken... :-)
how would you call this technique/approach then?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #219
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bmanzer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
sound and normalized all the channels,
That really seems like the final gesture, good luck on your next chapter!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #220
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Checking...
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #221
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konkon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
A question for those of you who play out more than I do. I have pretty much retried after playing and running sound at the local level for some 35 years, but I still do some recording and mixing for local bands. Some of the stories they tell me about the newest crop of sound engineers they are encountering at live gigs are very confusing to me.

For example, several local guys have recently been quite hostile to a young friend of mine for bringing a model 2204 50W Marshall head and a 4X12 to a gig. The amp is a MV model so he doesn’t need to distort the power tubes, and I know from experience that he runs it a lot quieter than I would have been considered normal even 20 years ago. One sound guy told him that “no-one uses amps in this place that don’t have a direct out.”’ Another told him that he’d have to face the cabinet towards the wall, because “you can’t have the guitar amp interfering with the sound from the PA.”

I have noticed at many local gigs that I attend that the backline appears to be almost inaudible. I am not a volume freak. As a sound guy in the 80s, I was heartily disliked by a few players in town because I was not keen on people running guitars so loud that it hurt to be within 20 feet of the stage. Now, at the one sound gig I still do, I spend a lot of time asking people to turn backline UP, because I’m struggling to keep the drums out of the bass and guitar mics. I’ve met bassists who seem confused by the idea of putting a mic on their cabinet, and guitarists playing at (to me) at extremely moderate volumes who thank me for “letting them turn it up for once.”

Equally, most young musician now seem used to hearing all the instruments, including their own through the monitors rather than from the amps. Last month, faced with a request for bass guitar in all four monitor channels on a 20 X 15 stage, I suggested that they just turn the bass amp until they could hear it on stage. The idea seemed quite novel to them.

Anyone else seeing stuff like this?
I don't know about elsewhere but I can tell you, as a constantly gigging guitar player where I am (HK), every gig is still either way too loud so that I can't even hear what I am playing or way too quiet because they're people who think they know what jazz is or karaoke folks and are afraid of drums or anything that "looks" loud, even if it's not.

If it's a serious gig (like my own band concept), I will take my own and and I use 20 watt Marshalls. That way I can control the volume and get good tone by turning it up without it being ridiculous. If it's not my stuff and it's just whatever junk music I am paid to play, I will just use whatever is provided since I learned long ago to stop making too much effort for situations where nobody can tell the difference.

If it's not fear of loud places, then they often provide 100 watt amps, so it's one extreme or the other. I've yet to have a gig that had some nice kick to the sound because it wasn't quiet OR wasn't so loud that I can't hear vocals or what I am playing. I just hear a wall of noise. The only time it has been comfortable whilst not being weak and background-musicy is when I have arranged shows myself and used my own guys.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #222
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
i had to watch the video after reading your comment:
truer words were never spoken... :-)
I know, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Butthead
Bathe her and bring her to me

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
how would you call this technique/approach then?
To be perfectly honest AND forthcoming I might respond "Basic and Experienced, but also Lucky". Being an East Coast guy I never saw JA until the After Bathing at Baxters tour and though my first time was a fairly small college venue (slightly smaller than in the video) I didn't and don't have the perspective of how they fared in smaller venues. For example did Jorma pare down to just one Twin early on or at smaller gigs or did he always use two because of his stereo guitar? How much would or did that affect Tone and Mix with such a simple PA or was that a House PA at Family Dog?

Lots of variables but I do support the idea that when presented with a choice to simplify or get more complex, simpler is usually better in Art and Technology.

If, as I strongly suspect, the recording was either a "bleed" mix from the board or a hybrid with a couple of "field" mics blended with the vocal mic "Send" it may be worthy of contemplation how the dancing girl at 5:17 heard the mix, since I'm sure it was quite different than what ended up on tape.

In Arena venues I've heard such massive differences in audio at different locations that not only was the blend of the mix different but actual Timing was noticeably altered. IOW the band performing might sound crisp and tight in one location and sloppy and "off" in another. Perhaps the salient point is that Stage Levels are just one of the variables that can affect a mix.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #223
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RicTone's Avatar
 



Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
If, as I strongly suspect, the recording was either a "bleed" mix from the board or a hybrid with a couple of "field" mics blended with the vocal mic "Send" it may be worthy of contemplation how the dancing girl at 5:17 heard the mix, since I'm sure it was quite different than what ended up on tape.
I believe your analysis is on the correct track, (no pun intended.) The fascinating things in this recording/mix for me is the fact Grace is facing the band much of the time and turning, yet there is no feedback from her mic. Obviously she couldn't clearly hear her vocals, which belies the fact of no feedback and plus she uses the common technique of the day, the hand/fingers to the ear to hear yourself. And also, her singing voice is so strong it's almost as though the recording of her vocal came directly dry from the board.

Personally I love the mix, it's far from technically perfect obviously particularly the drums, but it is a perfect mix.
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