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Digital Challenge - Recreate This Simple Dynamic Tone
Old 1 week ago
  #181
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Maxwell View Post
Is that an attempt to pass a chronological relation as a causal one?
Uhhh... it's both and that should be obvious from the simple fact that not only DID digital follow analog but digital guitar rigs are useless absent something to simulate, emulate or profile :D I don't think I've seen a "car accident" or "babbling brook" patch yet.
Old 1 week ago
  #182
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie View Post
...you cannot go from full clean to full dirty easily with picking alone, either with a tube amp or with a sim. If you want to achieve that you will need to make use of the volume pot on your guitar (or pedal) or the lead tone/boost or other pedals...
It can be done, but it's so much easier to do using both picking dynamics and the volume pot. I'm not really getting the anal focus on only using picking dynamics, in this thread. Why not employ the volume pot? What's the downside?

The combo of volume pot use and pick strength buys me so much more control and sound variation than just one or the other.

Why the unyielding and dogmatic focus on picking control only? What is the purpose? The concept of varying distortion level as the front end of an amp is hit with varying signal level is the idea, regardless of where this level variations originate, IMO.

Not being smartass about it... just wondering why.
Old 1 week ago
  #183
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Moonwhistle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
Not being smartass about it... just wondering why.
Personally I assumed that was what Enobert2 was talking about. As in can you set a sim on the edge of breakup and pick hard to get some dirt, pick soft to keep it clean.

Turns out this thread was just bait so he could trash sims like this section always does. Old dudes vs the modeller, lawn get off or mow. etc.
Old 1 week ago
  #184
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
Not being smartass about it... just wondering why.
The key word in the bit you quoted from me was "easily". It's totally doable, but the more dynamic (in terms of from clean to distorted) an amp is the less room for each shade of clean to dirty you have. If you want to be able to go from full on metal monster to country clean you're going to have a hard (bot not impossible) time. It'd be like trying to steer a car which goes full lock after turning only 1/8th. Sure you can do it... or you could just not torture yourself.

I don't think it demonstrates anything either, if you use the tone pot it equally shows how an amp responds to dynamic input. This meanwhile is just doing a demo of picking technique, not amps. It's a necessary skill but as a technique on it's own it's limiting, so as you say - use both because crunch with light picking emphasizing detail and separation and clean with digging in for spankyness are both great tones and not on this particular palette.
Old 1 week ago
  #185
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie View Post
There’s always some excuse eh Yuri? If it’s not the kit it’s the guitarist!

Must suck not being able to enjoy MKs music anymore because of something he used in his signal chain...
I didn't say I didn't like MK. I just said haven't heard anything new from him in a long while. I am sure he will sound just same whatever he uses
Old 1 week ago
  #186
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonwhistle View Post
His tone was great with the Music Man amps. Not sure why he'd downgrade to a fumble. (I kid, kinda)



Yeah most of his recordings are the Pignose or the Acoustic 270. By the 80's he stopped using them.
His tone was great with a marshall too. Its the way he plays, whatever he uses
Zappa went all technological on us in the 80
Old 1 week ago
  #187
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie View Post
It's totally doable, but the more dynamic (in terms of from clean to distorted) an amp is the less room for each shade of clean to dirty you have. If you want to be able to go from full on metal monster to country clean you're going to have a hard (bot not impossible) time. It'd be like trying to steer a car which goes full lock after turning only 1/8th. Sure you can do it... or you could just not torture yourself.

I don't think it demonstrates anything either, if you use the tone pot it equally shows how an amp responds to dynamic input. This meanwhile is just doing a demo of picking technique, not amps. It's a necessary skill but as a technique on it's own it's limiting, so as you say - use both because crunch with light picking emphasizing detail and separation and clean with digging in for spankyness are both great tones and not on this particular palette.
Yeah, my point. Less signal hitting the front end either way. By backing off, you can pick hard and get that aggressive sound of hard pick with less breakup. Or you can turn full up and get more breakup with a softer picking tone.

When I'm using a responsive amp setting, I instinctively use both picking strength and volume control settings to play the amp's input stage. To not use one or the other would require conscious restraint, and that would affect what I'm doing. My mind is busy
thinking about technique instead of emotional communication.
Old 1 week ago
  #188
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonwhistle View Post
Personally I assumed that was what Enobert2 was talking about. As in can you set a sim on the edge of breakup and pick hard to get some dirt, pick soft to keep it clean.

Turns out this thread was just bait so he could trash sims like this section always does. Old dudes vs the modeller, lawn get off or mow. etc.
Could be, yeah... As I stated, I would use Norbury's posted tone in any situation, gigging or studio. I feel no need to dig further than that, and start overthinking tiny minutia of tone questing; i.e. focusing on minuscule tonality aspects instead of musical communication.

I've heard plenty of live amps that don't sound anywhere near as good as that Kemper tone he posted. I've maybe heard some better also, but it gets so subjective, personal and academic from that point forward. That is a tone I could easily use to reach listeners emotionally.
But hey, that's me. A lot of people get satisfaction by magnifying and expanding the last 1% until it consumes the entire field. That's cool, depending on one's goal.
Old 1 week ago
  #189
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
It can be done, but it's so much easier to do using both picking dynamics and the volume pot. I'm not really getting the anal focus on only using picking dynamics, in this thread. Why not employ the volume pot? What's the downside?

The combo of volume pot use and pick strength buys me so much more control and sound variation than just one or the other.

Why the unyielding and dogmatic focus on picking control only? What is the purpose? The concept of varying distortion level as the front end of an amp is hit with varying signal level is the idea, regardless of where this level variations originate, IMO.

Not being smartass about it... just wondering why.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was being dogmatic on ONLY picking dynamics. I'm hugely in favor of using what's right at your fingertips and with a good amp the sweet spot is wide enough that Volume control setting can greatly enhance and complement picking dynamics. I'm not much of a fan of pedals, preferring what's right in front of me. That said, if the amp doesn't have a wide sweet spot of transition, that can be rather limiting.
Old 1 week ago
  #190
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonwhistle View Post
Personally I assumed that was what Enobert2 was talking about. As in can you set a sim on the edge of breakup and pick hard to get some dirt, pick soft to keep it clean.

Turns out this thread was just bait so he could trash sims like this section always does. Old dudes vs the modeller, lawn get off or mow. etc.
'
I would be offended if this wasn't so blind and hilarious. I can't even count the times I've complimented digital clips just in this thread. Furthermore, I have heard some that surprised me and taught me something which is EXACTLY why I made this thread. If you think it was just to trash sims ur delusional and WAY too defensive.

Not only that but I haven't displayed the all too common disdain for young vs. old, old vs/ new either. Maybe you're a speed-reader and missed every other line.
Old 1 week ago
  #191
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was being dogmatic on ONLY picking dynamics. I'm hugely in favor of using what's right at your fingertips and with a good amp the sweet spot is wide enough that Volume control setting can greatly enhance and complement picking dynamics. I'm not much of a fan of pedals, preferring what's right in front of me. That said, if the amp doesn't have a wide sweet spot of transition, that can be rather limiting.
Right, not about anything you said. Another posted noted regarding Norbury's sound file... "To me you are missing the point. Its how the amp responds to picking dynamics. Not riding the volume pot." I should have aimed it more carefully.
Old 6 days ago
  #192
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deng's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
Right, not about anything you said. Another posted noted regarding Norbury's sound file... "To me you are missing the point. Its how the amp responds to picking dynamics. Not riding the volume pot." I should have aimed it more carefully.
Examples to demonstrate how an amp sim can respond to picking dynamics when the player, guitar and the signal chain work together, cutting the mustard!




Last edited by deng; 6 days ago at 08:29 AM..
Old 6 days ago
  #193
Also, you can skim through Paul Davids' channel on YT - he uses Kemper almost universally in his videos. He is also a good player, so maybe there is something of interest to glimpse from his sound.

ADDED:
However, since we're talking about Kemper with increasing frequency here, one must distinguish Kemper from software amp sims like ReValver because while they both can be called DSP, and it doesn't matter to the OP, they operate on fundamentally different principles. While RV is a highly optimized and simplified SPICE circuit simulator, Kemper at its core is a classic machine learning (neural network) setup with simple DSP blocks added to it.
Unfortunately I've yet to come across one in my vicinity, but nevertheless, those two approaches will have different pitfalls and idiosyncrasies to them.
Something I thought I'd clarify after Yuri's comment that he would steer clear of Kemper based on my ReValver samples.

Last edited by Orson Maxwell; 6 days ago at 10:13 AM..
Old 6 days ago
  #194
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Maxwell View Post
Also, you can skim through Paul Davids' channel on YT - he uses Kemper almost universally in his videos. He is also a good player, so maybe there is something of interest to glimpse from his sound.

ADDED:
However, since we're talking about Kemper with increasing frequency here, one must distinguish Kemper from software amp sims like ReValver because while they both can be called DSP, and it doesn't matter to the OP, they operate on fundamentally different principles. While RV is a highly optimized and simplified SPICE circuit simulator, Kemper at its core is a classic machine learning (neural network) setup with simple DSP blocks added to it.
Unfortunately I've yet to come across one in my vicinity, but nevertheless, those two approaches will have different pitfalls and idiosyncrasies to them.
Something I thought I'd clarify after Yuri's comment that he would steer clear of Kemper based on my ReValver samples.
No, I am steering away from Kemper because I bought one and it didn't do what I wanted it to do. So I sold it at a loss. Since then I was told that I wasn't profiling right, had wrong version of software... I would like to have one demoed to me in my studio preferably and shown to me the error of my ways before I commit to a very expensive gizmo, which doesn't do what I want it to do.
Old 6 days ago
  #195
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deng View Post
Examples to demonstrate how an amp sim can respond to picking dynamics when the player, guitar and the signal chain work together, cutting the mustard!



Nice guitar with funky gold foils. I am in a process of having 2 built. See if they come out as good. The MOJO pickup in the bridge is interesting
Old 6 days ago
  #196
Those claims might not entire lack some substance - an ML system's performance depends very strongly on the learning protocol. Beyond that, I can't tell much - I'd very much like to toy with a kemper myself to see particularly how it is taught.
Old 6 days ago
  #197
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deng View Post
Examples to demonstrate how an amp sim can respond to picking dynamics when the player, guitar and the signal chain work together, cutting the mustard!



Both of those sound really good but the soundcloud clip while quite dynamic, isn't at all about the threshold of distortion. He's dead clean all the time.

The YouTube clip sounds amazing both the guitar and the player and while still primarily clean, I can hear subtle nuance approaching overdrive and was very impressed. I'd like to hear more of it's range in that "grey" area but I couldn't find anywhere what amplification he is using there? Do you know? and if so, how so?
Old 6 days ago
  #198
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deng View Post
Examples to demonstrate how an amp sim can respond to picking dynamics when the player, guitar and the signal chain work together, cutting the mustard!
That's a great clip with some most excellent playing. The sound is definitely moving toward a nice OD type of breakup when he picks hard. Sounds responsive to me. Not into distortion, but an expressive OD sound.

This kind of thing works perfect as a great baseline tone for me, especially on the gig. If I want distortion, I'm going to a device, not expect the amp to go into full distortion when I pick hard. For me, that would be problematic on the gig, as it would dictate far too strongly on my picking-hand style. Further, a range of devices offer more tonality, i.e. Blackstone Appliances vs. Maxon vs. Big Muff or Fulltone. A wider palette.

This guy is a seasoned player. Put this rig into the hands of a crap player, and it will sound crap. Put it in the hands of an excellent player with a different style and it will sound great, but quite different. The core of the expressive emotional stuff here is coming from his fingers; how he's pinching notes, where he's picking, left hand expressions and vibratos and such.

I don't do open mic stuff here in US, just paid gigs. But I live abroad for a while in the summer; all open mics and jam things. And there's always a house rig; from acoustic to a full setup. Seasoned players can make a crap house rig sound great, and crap players make an amazing rig sound crap. Every time. The rig can only take a player so far.
Old 6 days ago
  #199
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deng's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Both of those sound really good but the soundcloud clip while quite dynamic, isn't at all about the threshold of distortion. He's dead clean all the time.

The YouTube clip sounds amazing both the guitar and the player and while still primarily clean, I can hear subtle nuance approaching overdrive and was very impressed. I'd like to hear more of it's range in that "grey" area but I couldn't find anywhere what amplification he is using there? Do you know? and if so, how so?
There's a thread here where he posted about his new Ronin $6.5K guitar with a 1000 yr. old redwood body, about 4 years ago.

Playing thru a Kemper toaster, with I presume, a profile of his Suhr Badger (Voxy)

Here's some more......enjoy
Old 4 days ago
  #200
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grannis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Maxwell View Post
Kemper at its core is a classic machine learning (neural network) setup with simple DSP blocks added to it.
i've not heard this before - but it does make sense that it would use ML when profiling, but not while it is being played. Do you have a source where this is explained?
Old 4 days ago
  #201
Quote:
Originally Posted by grannis View Post
i've not heard this before - but it does make sense that it would use ML when profiling, but not while it is being played. Do you have a source where this is explained?
No, unfortunately, I don't. However, from dealing with voice recognition, I see it has some characteristic traits of being a machine learning system. It might not be a full-blown spectral resynthesis algo, since it clearly takes measurements of your guitar setup during the profiling (the weird sounds it makes), but the "refining" of the profile with human input (playing) is a dead giveaway of a neural network learning process. At least those are my thoughts on that subject.
And yes, it learns while profiling, and then stores and uses the coefficients of some kind of a network. That's what they are loved for - they are slow to learn but quick to operate, and when they do, they get you 90% of the way there pretty quickly given proper architecture and error propagation techniques.
Old 1 day ago
  #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie View Post
If you want to be able to go from full on metal monster to country clean you're going to have a hard (bot not impossible) time.
That's the moment when you simply use an expression pedal and morph the gain on the Kemper, look at the tube aficionado and say "And now what about you and your tube amp?".
Old 20 hours ago
  #203
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pops Martin View Post
That's the moment when you simply use an expression pedal and morph the gain on the Kemper, look at the tube aficionado and say "And now what about you and your tube amp?".
Actually, on any of my amps that have FX Loops I run a simple pedal board consisting of one or two delay devices that ends in a Volume Pedal so that my guitar Volume controls input level and preamp staging but the Volume Pedal handles how much gets to drive the power section, mitigated by the following FX Return level control. I have all the control I could want and in effect at "infinite sampling rate".

I'm glad it is improving but I am aware that digital isolates us from machines in a way that analog by nature does not. Maybe we will get past this somehow but it has only been a decade since Toyota's software debacles killed people in ways if not impossible then exceedingly unlikely with direct electro-mechanical connections. The software in vehicles no longer does that. Much of this thread is to hopefully see similar deep improvements in digital musical instruments that interface with electro-mechanical devices, in this case, guitars.
Old 18 hours ago
  #204
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deng's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pops Martin View Post
That's the moment when you simply use an expression pedal and morph the gain on the Kemper, look at the tube aficionado and say "And now what about you and your tube amp?".




Old 17 hours ago
  #205
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enorbet2's Avatar
Thanks a bunch, deng! That is informative and very cool. Personally I wouldn't like that much for Live work but for studio that seems a very workable tool. I can imagine lots of ways that could be extremely flexible and creative. I am very pleasantly surprised.
Old 4 hours ago
  #206
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orson Maxwell View Post
No, unfortunately, I don't. However, from dealing with voice recognition, I see it has some characteristic traits of being a machine learning system. It might not be a full-blown spectral resynthesis algo, since it clearly takes measurements of your guitar setup during the profiling (the weird sounds it makes), but the "refining" of the profile with human input (playing) is a dead giveaway of a neural network learning process. At least those are my thoughts on that subject.
And yes, it learns while profiling, and then stores and uses the coefficients of some kind of a network. That's what they are loved for - they are slow to learn but quick to operate, and when they do, they get you 90% of the way there pretty quickly given proper architecture and error propagation techniques.
The "refining" phase is more likely a tone matching process, using dual channel FFT analysis. Describing the Kemper in terms of machine learning or neural network learning is sexy but seems quite off base.
Old 1 hour ago
  #207
Well, having seen Kemper on videos only, that can surely be the case. However, I'd like you to elaborate on this one. At least on what do you think it actually does when "refining".
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