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Why a bolt-on neck?
Old 20th May 2019
  #121
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KevWind's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
"Preferable" is subjective. So is "better." Neither of those belong in the same sentence with "facts." But none of that really matters, it's just all provocation. Bait on a hook. Don't bite.
You would think being retired and avid fly fisherman I would know better
But on a snowy day in the Rockies I must be bored
Old 20th May 2019
  #122
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
...There was a concrete guitar built. Sustained forever. Thin, annoyingly treble tone. Why?...
This can be cured by including more crushed rock and less sand....
Old 20th May 2019
  #123
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Mikhael's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
This can be cured by including more crushed rock and less sand....
Hah! Maybe they should've tried a dried mud guitar, or maybe paper mache...
Old 20th May 2019
  #124
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 

Honestly I find the difference more importance on basses than guitars. On guitar, I can go happily from a screwed on neck (none of them have "bolts" unless they have inserts in the neck) to a dovetail or tenon-jointed neck without any playing adjustment.

On bass, I find the difference in envelope between a screwed-on neck and, say a neck through design is enough to require me to change my playing style a bit.
Old 20th May 2019
  #125
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
I can't believe this is still going on.

There was a concrete guitar built. Sustained forever. Thin, annoyingly treble tone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
This can be cured by including more crushed rock and less sand....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
Hah! Maybe they should've tried a dried mud guitar, or maybe paper mache...
Or by adding a dose of horse**** to the mixture!
Old 20th May 2019
  #126
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audioforce's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
Honestly I find the difference more importance on basses than guitars. On guitar, I can go happily from a screwed on neck (none of them have "bolts" unless they have inserts in the neck) to a dovetail or tenon-jointed neck without any playing adjustment.

On bass, I find the difference in envelope between a screwed-on neck and, say a neck through design is enough to require me to change my playing style a bit.
So lemme get this straight.

You actually have to adjust your playing to compensate for the fact that the screw-on neck is better than the neck-though-body neck since the glue (aka “sustain killer”) that is glommed all over both sides of almost half of the neck basically stops the music from vibrating in the body (wings) that are both glued on to both sides of the neck, because the gross glue prevents the wood-on-wood contact that is the reason that the bolt-on neck guitar sounds better (and rocks harder, yo).

I think I understand now.


cheers,

audioforce
Old 20th May 2019
  #127
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
Fender offers tube amps as well as solid state and digital amps. There are markets for all three.
Fender offers solid state and digital amps because they are much, much cheaper to manufacture than tuver amps, ay least in the USA.

Furthermore, in today's market conditions they can charge a premium for tube amps.

And there's a big market for digital amps among the gang who are more interested in "choices" and fiddling with gear than in actually playing music. And who are dumb enough to swallow the baloney that the "models" in those things actually sound like the real thing.
Old 20th May 2019
  #128
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
And there's a big market for digital amps among the gang who are more interested in "choices" and fiddling with gear than in actually playing music. And who are dumb enough to swallow the baloney that the "models" in those things actually sound like the real thing.
My guess is the biggest market for solid state amps is kids (and their parents). Every kid's first guitar and amp is terrible, just like every kid's first keyboard is either Casio-esque or a Baldwin Acrosonic. I think it may be a law.
Old 21st May 2019
  #129
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
Again you are just being difficult. The man's name is Stradivari.One of his violins is a Stradivarius.
Stradivari is a Latinate Italian name; originally in Latin, which is a declined language, in the First declension (roughly identified as "male", more or less) the nominative case would have been "Stradivarius", the genitive case (meaning "Of XXX" - i.e. "bolonging to") would have been "Stradivari". (The dative, meaning "to Stradivarius" would have been "Stradivaro" or "Stradivario", the accusative case (the direct object of a transitive verb) would have been "Stradivarium", and the ablative (meaning moving or taking away from) would also have been "Stradivario".

"Stradivari" as a proper name probably referred to his place of origin - "Antonio of Stradivarius", as was common in that period.

Remember that during that period Latin was the written language of educated people, still persisting (in somewhat corrupt form) in the Catholic Church and others.

This has been your dead languages lesson of the day. We now return to our normal programming.
Old 21st May 2019
  #130
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chrischoir's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael View Post
I can't believe this is still going on.

There was a concrete guitar built. Sustained forever. Thin, annoyingly treble tone. Why?

No frequency filtering happening. All the highs were retained.

I've NEVER played a neck-thru that didn't sound thin, except the Firebird. That was probably because the neck was a mahogany/walnut sandwich. Most neck-thru guitars I've played had a maple neck, which sounded thin.

Please stop.
Firebird is mahogany body wings and 24 5/8 scale so it is going to be warm no matter what. The neckthru definitely adds to the thick sustain though. Many of the FB pickups are really hot too, that is a bonus for sustain as well. They are great guitars. I have 4 of them.
Old 21st May 2019
  #131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
My guess is the biggest market for solid state amps is kids (and their parents). Every kid's first guitar and amp is terrible, just like every kid's first keyboard is either Casio-esque or a Baldwin Acrosonic. I think it may be a law.
My first amp was a Silvertone Twin Twelve - the original 4 6L6 combo version. Wish I still had it. My first real electric guitar (besides the one I attempted to build from scratch) was a 1960 Strat. Wish I still had that, but it burned up in a fire.
Old 21st May 2019
  #132
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chrischoir's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
Honestly I find the difference more importance on basses than guitars
So are you saying that you find neckthru basses sound better than boltons?
Old 21st May 2019
  #133
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chrischoir's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Stradivari is a Latinate Italian name; originally in Latin, which is a declined language, in the First declension (roughly identified as "male", more or less) the nominative case would have been "Stradivarius", the genitive case (meaning "Of XXX" - i.e. "bolonging to") would have been "Stradivari". (The dative, meaning "to Stradivarius" would have been "Stradivaro" or "Stradivario", the accusative case (the direct object of a transitive verb) would have been "Stradivarium", and the ablative (meaning moving or taking away from) would also have been "Stradivario".

"Stradivari" as a proper name probably referred to his place of origin - "Antonio of Stradivarius", as was common in that period.

Remember that during that period Latin was the written language of educated people, still persisting (in somewhat corrupt form) in the Catholic Church and others.

This has been your dead languages lesson of the day. We now return to our normal programming.
John I actually just read this on Wikipedia, but thanks for copying and pasting here, Appreciate it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
a 1960 Strat. Wish I still had that, but it burned up in a fire.
That's probably worth 20k now, but be glad you didn't have and lose a 1960 Les Paul, those are worth $750,000 !!!
Old 21st May 2019
  #134
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ponzi's Avatar
I have 2 warwick bolt neck basses--fretted and fretless, could not be more pleased with them. Had a neck thru and sold it. When I read that Joe Osborn played the same jazz bass during his entire career, I determined I didn't need more than two basses.

PS, I just read on wiki that the latin first declension is mostly feminine and the second declension is masculine or neuter, so some admittedly off topic information posted earlier appears to be wrong...

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appen...rst_declension
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appen...ond_declension

PSS: who said boltons dont sound good:
Old 21st May 2019
  #135
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
My first amp was a Silvertone Twin Twelve - the original 4 6L6 combo version. Wish I still had it. My first real electric guitar (besides the one I attempted to build from scratch) was a 1960 Strat. Wish I still had that, but it burned up in a fire.
Just proves you were never a kid. :-)
Old 21st May 2019
  #136
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chrischoir's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
I have 2 warwick bolt neck basses--fretted and fretless, could not be more pleased with them. Had a neck thru and sold it. When I read that Joe Osborn played the same jazz bass during his entire career, I determined I didn't need more than two basses.

PS, I just read on wiki that the latin first declension is mostly feminine and the second declension is masculine or neuter, so some admittedly off topic information posted earlier appears to be wrong...

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appen...rst_declension
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appen...ond_declension

PSS: who said boltons dont sound good:
This guy had the best mullet and he could sing great !!! He also tried out for Black Sabbath after Dio quit.
Old 21st May 2019
  #137
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
Honestly I find the difference more importance on basses than guitars. [. . .] enough to require me to change my playing style a bit.
Martin: Thanks for the remarks. . .a useful perspective, I think.

Required technique [for me] often varies significantly from one guitar to another - sometimes even on the same basic kind of instrument [e.g, similar body, scale and neck shape].

Don’t know how much of that I would lay on neck/body joint design for a premium quality solid body though. My own experiences [at least those I can recall] have involved too many other variables.

Setting all doubt/disbelief aside [for the sake of discussion], it would be interesting to hear more specific detail of the differences in technique players attribute to different neck-joint types.


Best regards,

Ray H.
Old 21st May 2019
  #138
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
Firebird is mahogany body wings and 24 5/8 scale so it is going to be warm no matter what. The neckthru definitely adds to the thick sustain though. Many of the FB pickups are really hot too, that is a bonus for sustain as well. They are great guitars. I have 4 of them.
Mahogany thru-neck with mahogany wings. Check.

So you have just made the case that materials matter significantly more than construction, as long as the construction is well designed and executed.

Thank you.

You can shut up about it now.
Old 21st May 2019
  #139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Just proves you were never a kid. :-)
Well, my first playable guitar was a $40- Marco Polo classical, which was quite playable but nothing to write home about. It died when I tried stringing it with silk and steel.
Old 21st May 2019
  #140
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
This guy had the best mullet and he could sing great !!! He also tried out for Black Sabbath after Dio quit.
I detest Michael Bolton. Unlike the bolt on guitars, he does not sound good, AFAIK.

<barf!>

And he wouldn't have lasted one week in a band with Tony Iommi. He would have gone running for his mommy.

(Tony is an inveterate practical joker with a really wicked sense of humor....)
Old 21st May 2019
  #141
Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
PS, I just read on wiki that the latin first declension is mostly feminine and the second declension is masculine or neuter, so some admittedly off topic information posted earlier appears to be wrong...
They are wrong. I studied Latin from my dad, who was a professor of classics - he taught Latin in universities for a living.

First declension is -us. SECOND declension is -a.

At least that's what my Latin textbook said.

First is -us, -i, -o, -um, -o. Masculine

Second is -a, -ae, -ae, -am, -a. Feminine.

Which makes perfect sense, as ancient Latin society was seriously sexist. Women were second class citizens and were not allowed to vote.

Perhaps some revisionist feminist edited the Wiki.
Old 21st May 2019
  #142
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ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
They are wrong. I studied Latin from my dad, who was a professor of classics - he taught Latin in universities for a living.

First declension is -us. SECOND declension is -a.

At least that's what my Latin textbook said.

First is -us, -i, -o, -um, -o. Masculine

Second is -a, -ae, -ae, -am, -a. Feminine.

Which makes perfect sense, as ancient Latin society was seriously sexist. Women were second class citizens and were not allowed to vote.

Perhaps some revisionist feminist edited the Wiki.
Apparently Wheelock was a feminist as well.

http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Wheelock-Latin/
Old 21st May 2019
  #143
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chrischoir's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Mahogany thru-neck with mahogany wings. Check.

So you have just made the case that materials matter significantly more than construction, as long as the construction is well designed and executed.
John I really don't want to open this can of worms known as scale length. But I will agree mahogany warms things up and adds a certain thickness to the tone.


Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
You can shut up about it now.
Yes sir
Old 21st May 2019
  #144
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audioforce's Avatar
 

Help!
I accidentally glued a Tuna-matic bridge to my Les Paul, and now it will only play “Breezin’”.

What should I do?


Best,

audioforce
Old 21st May 2019
  #145
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audioforce's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
My first amp was a Silvertone Twin Twelve - the original 4 6L6 combo version. Wish I still had it.

Those were good. Not "thin sounding". : )



Best,

audioforce
Old 21st May 2019
  #146
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioforce View Post
Those were good. Not "thin sounding". : )
Indeed.
Back in 60's, My folks bought me the solid state 1464, and it was total dog; worst amp ever made. It actually got me kicked out of a band. There's one on Bay right now for $65, no bids. It could be $25, no bids.

About 10 years ago I found a near perfect 1484. It's not loud by modern standards, but it sings like a well-fed bird. Def one of the best sounding amps of the era.
Old 21st May 2019
  #147
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audioforce's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
Indeed.
Back in 60's, My folks bought me the solid state 1464, and it was total dog; worst amp ever made. It actually got me kicked out of a band. There's one on Bay right now for $65, no bids. It could be $25, no bids.

About 10 years ago I found a near perfect 1484. It's not loud by modern standards, but it sings like a well-fed bird. Def one of the best sounding amps of the era.
I almost bought one a few years back. Cool amp. Not the sturdiest cabinet, but that's part of the charm, I guess. Some kind of fiberboard, right? : )


Best,

audioforce
Old 21st May 2019
  #148
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
John I really don't want to open this can of worms known as scale length. But I will agree mahogany warms things up and adds a certain thickness to the tone.
AH! So you didn't actually bother to measure from the first fret to the bridge and discover it was twice the distance to the 13th fret and so on ad infintum, eh? You didn't see that Scale Length is in effect constantly changing on any one guitar.* depending also on string gauge and tuning... unless of course one only plays open strings. I suppose that is technically possible but 5 notes only would be the most limiting form of "pentatonic" I've ever heard of.

* This doesn't imply that guitars of different base scale length don't have different vibrating lengths for the exact same note, but it should imply that just playing in a transposed key would solve that making scale length all but irrelevant, a miniscule effect much like the difference of any manner of quality neck joint.

In all honesty I really don't understand exactly why so many neck through designs sound so thin but it's mostly because I don't care. I can get a sound I like out of pretty much anything that has decent intonation and stays in tune, given a proper amp..

For whatever it's worth, the first ever solid body electric I built from scratch was a bolt-on, not a screw-on... a bolt-on. All of my subsequent builds were set necks excepting one neck-thru. They all sound great.

Last edited by enorbet2; 21st May 2019 at 12:11 PM..
Old 21st May 2019
  #149
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audioforce's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
just playing in a transposed key would solve that making scale length all but irrelevant,
Not how it works.

Also, nobody does that.




cheers,

audioforce
Old 21st May 2019
  #150
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioforce View Post
I almost bought one a few years back. Cool amp. Not the sturdiest cabinet, but that's part of the charm, I guess. Some kind of fiberboard, right? : )


Best,

audioforce
Yeah, fiberboard. Drop that sucker, and it's all over.
Thing I like the most is that it's 2-12, so got a massive tone. But it doesn't get loud, not like a modern tube amp. My Blues Jr gets much louder, but sounds much smaller. After about 11 oclock on the volume, it just saturates more, but no louder.

I had a guru amp tech go through it, soup to nuts. He put a grounded IEC socket in and changed components that needed changing. We tried a Mercury Magnetics transformer, but put the original back in. Sounded better.

Perfect for studio, small, low-volume club gigs, and larger stage gigs where everything is mic'd up and stage volume is low. All of those in-betweens where you need stage muscle and cut-through tone, it won't work. But in studio, volume at about 2 oclock and a mic about 3 feet out to grab both 12's, it's tough to beat.
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