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Help Deciding on what Fender Twin! Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 1 week ago
  #61
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioforce View Post
come on, be fare, he almost agreed me.
Old 1 week ago
  #62
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioforce View Post
The top one, iirc, is what you want. YMMV.

audioforce
I like the bottom ones. The "relicing" is superb
Old 1 week ago
  #63
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audioforce's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
I like the bottom ones. The "relicing" is superb
I thought the top one was an Eminence at first, but I guess not. Did they ever decide what the bottom ones are supposed to be?

I like the Eminence speakers in Twins.


cheers,


audioforce
Old 1 week ago
  #64
I like the Eminence V128's here. I have a 4x12 loaded with those, a 480 watt cab that will hurt people.
Old 1 week ago
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
If your amp sounds "too hard" then you very likely need to adjust to the new voltage parameters.

1) Drop the bias voltage down to as far into Class AB1 as you can get it. If you really want to go crazy replace the output transformer or use a higher impedance speaker and go full Class A. You could even go from a B- supply to a self-biased circuit by calculating the right cathode resistor value.

2) Use a resistor substitution box to find the reduced value of decoupling resistor that supplies power to the driver and/or preamp stages to soften up the signal the power section will work with.

If that doesn't twirl your beanie sound-wise, then instead of or in addition to, drop the B+ voltage to the power tubes as it very likely increased from up-sized filter caps. There are several ways to do that.

While increasing filter cap values can reduce sag, even to the point of "hard", it doesn't have to. A simple voltage reduction was how Mesa accomplished the "spongy" "Tweed" selection on their Dual Rectifier amps and Mark IV "Full Power/Tweed" switch. There is just no justification (excepting maybe price) for low value, "soft" caps in any power supply. Ripple sux!... and anything achievable with low value caps is also achievable with proper caps if adjusted correctly.
Is it even possible to run a push pull in class-A?

Anyways...i have first hand experience with a few of the new Jensen drivers. Lets say i will write Jensen with a Cap because of the past. The new line is only so so.
Old 1 week ago
  #66
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pief View Post
Is it even possible to run a push pull in class-A?
.
Of course it is possible. The C lass of operation only defines what percentage of thew signal isd handled by eacvh half of the push-pull pair. In a pure Class B arrangement each half handles 50% of the signal since each side is biased high enough that each goes into cutoff (does not conduct) for half the signal, which means each is effectively "off" half of the time allowing a cooling period which in turn allows the device to be pushed harder which is why Class B has more potential output power than Class AB or Class A.

Class AB is generally and roughly subdivided into AB1 and AB2 to designate the proximity to Class B on one extreme and Class A on the other. It isn't exact but you can think of it as each device in AB2 handling roughly 67% of the signal, and AB1 as 83% of the signal. It actually has to do with what's called the "Conduction Angle" which is defined in degrees of swing but percentage of signal is easier to grasp and close enough. It is also useful in pointing out that there is some overlap shared between each opposing pair in the combining of the respective signals in the output transformer. They manage to share and complement each other just fine.

Class A is effectively on (conducting) all the time, for 100% of the signal. In fact Plate current is flowing even when no signal is present. It is simply idle current though and does not represent any signal. The two signals of the full 360 degree swing of the roughly sine wave signal combine perfectly as well.

The major differences between Class B and Class A, whether single ended or push-pull (another misleading term) is that Class A requires a higher load impedance and a lower bias voltage. Class A puts out substantially less power but doesn't sound lower partly because they never go into cutoff which has a non-linear are that creates "notch distortion" in true Class B amplification. That and the lower bias voltage means Class A sort of "jumps into action" at the slightest provocation and tend to be harmonically rich. This is true even in Hi Fidelity reproduction but is far more important in instrument amplification where distortion products are desirable.

A couple examples of so-called Push-Pull Class A instrument amps are the Leslie 147 and most Matchless amps. Simul-Class Mesa amps have a switch to turn off the pair in AB and leave only the Class A Push-Pull pair operating. The Mesas also have a switch to go from Pentode operation to Triode operation which is another power and harmonic alteration. The flexibility of Tube operation is one serious edge they have over SS devices. You should try some and discover how they each feall and sound and what you prefer.
Old 1 week ago
  #67
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lame pseudonym's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioforce View Post
You know, if you blocked everyone who responded with face-palms, the IQ of the material that you're reading would probably double.
Old 1 week ago
  #68
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audioforce's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lame pseudonym View Post
You know, if you blocked everyone who responded with face-palms, the IQ of the material that you're reading would probably double.
Nah.

Do you need an explanation of how cutting lows or adding highs yields essentially the same effect? Basic e.q.


Best,

audioforce
Old 1 week ago
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Of course it is possible. The C lass of operation only defines what percentage of thew signal isd handled by eacvh half of the push-pull pair. In a pure Class B ................
Wow Thanks. Very nice explanation.
Old 1 week ago
  #70
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioforce View Post
Nah.
Do you need an explanation of how cutting lows or adding highs yields essentially the same effect? Basic e.q.
Best,
audioforce
Actually that's only true in reproduction where the signal chain is supposed to remain free from distortion products.

In instrument amplification, especially guitar amps, it matters a great deal where in the signal chain frequencies are cut or boosted. Boost the bottom early on and be greeted with fart sounds and overall lack of clarity as well as some added (and often nasty) high frequency harmonics. Boost the treble early on and risk harshness and intermodulation products.

Commonly it is better to boost Treble and/or cut Bass early on and cut Treble and/or boost Bass at the power amp or even at the speakers. One example of this is many players followed Paul Kossof's example of playing into the Bright channel of a Marshall through Bass cabs and using the Presence (which is in the power section) to adjust to the room or stage acoustics or different guitars. Another good example is Mesa's Graphic EQ which is Post Distortion and in some models, channel assignable.

Instrument amplifiers aren't always (not even often) mere reproduction devices. They are musical instruments in and of themselves.
Old 1 week ago
  #71
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioforce View Post
Nah.

Do you need an explanation of how cutting lows or adding highs yields essentially the same effect? Basic e.q.


Best,

audioforce
Er, no.

Cutting 250 Hz does not give essentially the same effect as boosting 2kHz.

Cutting lows is cutting lows. Boosting highs is boosting highs. They are not the same thing, "essentially" or otherwise.

If you believe otherwise you're really in need of ear training.
Old 1 week ago
  #72
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audioforce's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Er, no.

Cutting 250 Hz does not give essentially the same effect as boosting 2kHz.

Cutting lows is cutting lows. Boosting highs is boosting highs. They are not the same thing, "essentially" or otherwise.

If you believe otherwise you're really in need of ear training.
First of all, that's not what I said, and second of all, you're wrong again.

My point was valid, yours is not. Its nonexistent, really.

Wow. It seems like you're just being an argumentative old dude, John.



cheers,


audioforce
Old 1 week ago
  #73
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audioforce's Avatar
 

Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Actually that's only true in reproduction where the signal chain is supposed to remain free from distortion products.

In instrument amplification, especially guitar amps, it matters a great deal where in the signal chain frequencies are cut or boosted. Boost the bottom early on and be greeted with fart sounds and overall lack of clarity as well as some added (and often nasty) high frequency harmonics. Boost the treble early on and risk harshness and intermodulation products.

Commonly it is better to boost Treble and/or cut Bass early on and cut Treble and/or boost Bass at the power amp or even at the speakers. One example of this is many players followed Paul Kossof's example of playing into the Bright channel of a Marshall through Bass cabs and using the Presence (which is in the power section) to adjust to the room or stage acoustics or different guitars. Another good example is Mesa's Graphic EQ which is Post Distortion and in some models, channel assignable.

Instrument amplifiers aren't always (not even often) mere reproduction devices. They are musical instruments in and of themselves.
It’s a speaker. Lol.
Old 6 days ago
  #74
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioforce View Post
It’s a speaker. Lol.
While I did mention speakers with special attention to specific case voiced instrument speakers, I was responding to your specific statement claiming that "cutting lows or boosting highs are essentially the same thing" for which my response is spot on and hardly "lol" worthy but then perhaps you still laugh at bumblebees "trying" to fly. .
Old 6 days ago
  #75
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audioforce's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
While I did mention speakers with special attention to specific case voiced instrument speakers, I was responding to your specific statement claiming that "cutting lows or boosting highs are essentially the same thing" for which my response is spot on and hardly "lol" worthy but then perhaps you still laugh at bumblebees "trying" to fly. .
Your post had nothing really to do with mine. LOL.



Best,

audioforce
Old 6 days ago
  #76
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enorbet2's Avatar
Well, audioforce, since my post, #72 in this thread, is still up there complete with your quoted post to which it responds, I imagine everyone can draw their own conclusions as to whether or not my response had anything to do with your post. Case closed.
Old 6 days ago
  #77
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audioforce's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Well, audioforce, since my post, #72 in this thread, is still up there complete with your quoted post to which it responds, I imagine everyone can draw their own conclusions as to whether or not my response had anything to do with your post. Case closed.
Case closed? What is it you think this is? Some sort of evidentiary proceeding?

Eppstein wrote:

"I would not call a C12N a "bright" speaker. I would say that it's a bit deficient in bass. Some people might interpret that as "brightness", I guess."

So we are talking about a speaker, not placement of tone stacks in a guitar amp.

I thought it was hilarious what he said because someone else had said something about C12N being "bright" and he says, basically, "No, its not bright, it just lacks bass". That's fu*king funny, no matter who you are.

Its like: "Its not too dark in here, there's just not enough light to see good", right?

So thereafter, in usual form, you write another whole novella about different e.q. stages in guitar amps, ostensibly to school us all [me, I guess] on the mysteries of e.q. I am assuming this was mostly just so you could hear yourself talk, as is usual with these techno-bloviations.

I've been an audio engineer for decades. So I promise you don't have to explain basic gain-staging, or e.q. to me.

And cutting lows properly yields the same effect as boosting highs [we are not talking about guitar amp preamp stages, btw, just plain old track and program e.q.], sometimes without some drawbacks. In this case the frequency balance question was actually confined to a 12" speaker.

Pro Tip: New engineers always boost everything. They want more highs, more low-end, more, more, more, hot, hot, hot. They end up with clipping, signals that are stupid hot and tracks that are a pain in the ass to mix. Maybe they learn at some point that you can also make things brighter by removing low end, and vice versa. You can achieve the same thing another way [better].

Balance.

Now who's bloviating? : ).

Anyhow.


cheers,

audioforce
Old 5 days ago
  #78
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enorbet2's Avatar
Yes, I write "novellas" and so do you. It's just that mine start and end usually in just one post. Yours come in numerous installments, sprinkled with considerable cruft posts. Apparently, from your view, I made the "mistake" of responding to just one as it stands on it's own. THAT is the case that is closed. Under some conditions cutting bass is similar to boosting treble but not all conditions, whether we are discussing gain staging or speakers. In the words of one of the more annoying commercials ever, "Can you hear me now?" or is this a null zone?
Old 4 days ago
  #79
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post

Old Fenders are notoriously thin sounding due to the age of the caps, resistors and age of the transformers.
Nonsense.

Aged transformers do NOT make an amp sound thin, especially high quality transformers such as those found in a Twin Reverb.

Where do you get these utterly silly ideas from, anyway?

Caps and resistors can definitely alter the tone but I would never say that they make a Twin sound thin. And caps and resistors are cheap - pennies each.

Quote:
Why would anyone take a chance buying a vintage amp without hearing it first? That IS a bad idea buying an amp without hearing it first. Even if these amps are mint NOS flawless sound, it doesn't guarantee a player is going to like the sound.
A Vintage amp is nearly always worth a good tune up by a tech. A MUCH better investment than buying some new Asian piece of junk.

Quote:
I personally would never play though a Fender Twin. They don't sound as good as modern amps.
yeah, it's pretty clear from you posts up to this point that both you ear and your taste in amplifiers leave something to be desired.

There are very, very few "modern" amps thatI'd be willing to spend my money on that are not uber expensive boutique amps.
Old 4 days ago
  #80
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post


Fender Twin has 2 sounds, Clean and cleaner, It's one sound John, It has no gain. It can get any crunch tone on it's own. Stop printing mis-information. The "Evil Twin" from the 90s had some gain but that was not a real twin. It still was wimpy.
You are deaf.

Even with my 140 watt Ultralinear Twin with stock JBLs I can still get a great breakup tone out of it. However, you might not want to be in the same room with it when I do.
Old 4 days ago
  #81
Gear Head
 

I’m pretty tired and I’m not sure what we’re talking about but the oxfords are good for that late Beatles rooftop era distortion sound. Still though they are not good especially after all these years. Twins are great I don’t understand the hate.
Old 4 days ago
  #82
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audioforce's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Yes, I write "novellas" and so do you. It's just that mine start and end usually in just one post. Yours come in numerous installments, sprinkled with considerable cruft posts. Apparently, from your view, I made the "mistake" of responding to just one as it stands on it's own. THAT is the case that is closed. Under some conditions cutting bass is similar to boosting treble but not all conditions, whether we are discussing gain staging or speakers. In the words of one of the more annoying commercials ever, "Can you hear me now?" or is this a null zone?
I can hear you [or read you, as it were]. But what you are saying is null.

I think you were trying to say "dead zone", btw.




audioforce [noted multiple shark jumper]
Old 3 days ago
  #83
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enorbet2's Avatar
Here ya go, audioforce, a "piece offering" (a piece of epic comedy) just for you but be warned it's NSFW. You can FFWD to 2:30 if you prefer.

Old 2 days ago
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Here ya go, audioforce, a "piece offering" (a piece of epic comedy) just for you but be warned it's NSFW. You can FFWD to 2:30 if you prefer.
Just about as offensive as possible on all fronts, right? You've outdone yourself.



really,


audioforce
Old 2 days ago
  #85
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audioforce's Avatar
 

Don't push it. : )




Best,

audioforce
Old 2 days ago
  #86
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioforce View Post
Just about as offensive as possible on all fronts, right? You've outdone yourself.
really,
audioforce
How old are you? or are you just devoid of humor? You didn't get the George Carlin reference and you consider Richard Pryor merely "offensive" despite his being considered one of the greatest comedians of all time even by his peers, then and now. He's basically the Jimi Hendrix of Comedy.
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