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Tone Wood Test Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 3 days ago
  #391
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enorbet2's Avatar
OMFG chrischoir, riddle me this. If we take a 25 1/2 inch scale length guitar and put a capo on the first fret (or remove the 1st fret and put the nut there) what is the scale length then and will it be substantially "fatter"?
Old 3 days ago
  #392
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Mikhael's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
Ok deniers

Why would there be so many different scale lengths if they all sounded the same?

24
24 5/8
24.75
25
25.5


what is the point??


please enlighten me !!!


I won't be holding my breath since you people have provided not one viable argument in 3 weeks
Feel. It's easy for some to play short scale lengths, and others want more room between the frets.

And I provided you with an experiment that showed the difference of scale length was not near so important as the construction and materials. So learn to read.
Old 3 days ago
  #393
Gear Guru
People don’t come in one size hence scale length changes. Nothing to do woth tone otherwise we’d all be playing mandolins or ukes....Stop this nonsense. You are being trolled......
Old 2 days ago
  #394
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
The result would still be subjective since timbre is subjective. Your proposed test is not scientific in any sense. It would be a non scientific hypothesis.

Regardless, the equation I posted proves the difference in harmonic content. I don't know how you can get any more technically minded than a Physics theorem. So I don't know why you continue to deny reality. It's mind boggling at this point. Cut your losses.
Huh? Why are you bringing me into this farce? Also do you even read bro?

I have to admit a passing intrigue into what reality I’m meant to have denied though, maybe this time without trying your best to cherry pick quotes out of context from posts eh? Also “continuing” - huh? When did I last post into this embarrassment? I gotta say though, good trolling.

Speaking of reality, English and treating physics and science in general like a cargo cult totem, Did you know that variation in timbre is not subjective? It’s quite measurable. Like or dislike is subjective. Notice or don’t notice is subjective. Differences in frequency response, note length, harmonic content, attack and decay and so on, in other words all the things that make up variations in timbre are measurable and are not subjective.

Anyhow, to get back to the subject that seems to be so close and dear to your heart. Here’s a simple experiment you can all do with all of your guitars to determine how much effect scale length has on your sound. Doesn’t require pulling out electronics, but won’t eliminate the human and their ability to consistently pick. Take a good quality capo and place it on your first fret. Tune with the capo in place if you want to eliminate the inherent issues with temperament and the guitar, and you may want to adjust your intonation if you aren’t tuning to an open chord (if you want to the just make it easy on yourself tune to an open chord). Record yourself playing your chord or notes or whatever you want really. Now move the capo to the second fret and tune everything down by a semitone so it matches the pitch of the first setup. Repeat recording yourself. You have now effectively adjusted one of the two fixed points on the neck of your guitar. Listen to your recordings if you have any doubt but it’s will give you a pretty good idea of how much difference scale length makes to the sound of your stringed instrument most other factors eliminated.

Give it a try, post your results. Run it through some audio analysis software if you want too, or just post soundclips. If you can think of a better “more scientific” way of testing this then by all means use that. But what I suggest is pretty painless and quick for anyone to try out so there’s really no excuse.... unless you specifically don’t want to find out that is.
Old 2 days ago
  #395
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audioforce's Avatar
 

One guitar, one set of strings.

Now who said that, way back there?

Oh yeah. That's right!



audioforce
Old 2 days ago
  #396
Gear Addict
 
Sniff's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioforce View Post
One guitar, one set of strings.

Now who said that, way back there?

Oh yeah. That's right!



audioforce
I knew you had it covered
Old 2 days ago
  #397
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audioforce's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniff View Post
I knew you had it covered
Thanks.


Best,

audioforce
Old 1 day ago
  #398
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RicTone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie View Post
Anyhow, to get back to the subject that seems to be so close and dear to your heart. Here’s a simple experiment you can all do with all of your guitars to determine how much effect scale length has on your sound. Doesn’t require pulling out electronics, but won’t eliminate the human and their ability to consistently pick. Take a good quality capo and place it on your first fret. Tune with the capo in place if you want to eliminate the inherent issues with temperament and the guitar, and you may want to adjust your intonation if you aren’t tuning to an open chord (if you want to the just make it easy on yourself tune to an open chord). Record yourself playing your chord or notes or whatever you want really. Now move the capo to the second fret and tune everything down by a semitone so it matches the pitch of the first setup. Repeat recording yourself. You have now effectively adjusted one of the two fixed points on the neck of your guitar. Listen to your recordings if you have any doubt but it’s will give you a pretty good idea of how much difference scale length makes to the sound of your stringed instrument most other factors eliminated.

Give it a try, post your results. Run it through some audio analysis software if you want too, or just post soundclips. If you can think of a better “more scientific” way of testing this then by all means use that. But what I suggest is pretty painless and quick for anyone to try out so there’s really no excuse.... unless you specifically don’t want to find out that is.
I'm not specifically replying to you mdme_sadie, several people have talked about this and I recorded a short test in Pro Tools.

The guitar is a Gibson Tennessean with a 25.5" scale. For this test I recorded the guitar in standard tuning and then tuned down a step and put a capo on the 2nd fret. I recorded two separate tracks and then A/B'd with a cut between the two tracks. With both tunings I strummed an E chord to a click track, then precisely matched the waveforms and made a straight cut between the two tracks. Both tracks used the neck pickup and volume and tone knobs were exactly the same. In Pro Tools the two tracks were recorded at exactly the same level. Each strum of the E chord begins with the capo at the 2nd fret then cuts to open standard tuning. There is a difference at the cut, there is more "resonance" for lack of a better word in standard tuning, but I haven't listened to the test enough to ascertain all the elements in the change or if there is any change in tone at the cut. (I recorded this late last night and only now uploaded it.)

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Old 1 day ago
  #399
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enorbet2's Avatar
Yeah RicTone it sounds and even looks different but not "fatter". The difference may be as I noted above since I was first to bring up the capo thing. I amended that in theory by suggesting removing the 1st fret and placing the exact same nut there. The difference your experiment rightly demonstrates is that nuts (usually some fiber or plastic) provide a different resonance end point for the string and as a transmission point for vibration transfer to the neck, compared to a hard, metal fret. Nice job on the recording, mate.
Old 1 day ago
  #400
I would cut it alternately starting open and second fret. One reason I suggested both being capo’ed was because I find a capo always deadens the strings slightly due to them never quite matching the neck radius properly, I was eyeing one of those new expensive g7 capos that claims to solve this recently because of that, but nearly fifty bucks for a capo seems OTT.
Old 1 day ago
  #401
Gear Guru
Capo makes a guitar sound different unfortunately...... I use them all the time (since my voice ain't what it used to be).

Maybe I'll take back my kid's guitars that I bought when they were little. Need that fat sound...... Now if I can get my fingers to behave.........
Old 1 day ago
  #402
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audioforce's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
.... since I was first to bring up the capo thing.
Au contraire. : )



audioforce
Old 1 day ago
  #403
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audioforce's Avatar
 

And don't use the open string or the "capoed open string". And don't cut. You're hearing the edit.

Play a fretted note at one string tension, and let it fade. Play a fretted note [same string, same pitch] at the other string tension, and let it fade. Different tracks if you want to record it.


audioforce
Old 16 hours ago
  #404
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chrischoir's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
OMFG chrischoir, riddle me this. If we take a 25 1/2 inch scale length guitar and put a capo on the first fret (or remove the 1st fret and put the nut there) what is the scale length then and will it be substantially "fatter"?
Perhaps you are confused since the fret locations (and distance between frets) are different depending on scale lengths. So putting a capo on is not going to make a difference in fatness. If you put a capo on it will just make things even thinner. If you want a little fatter you can try to tune down, give that a try.
Old 15 hours ago
  #405
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kennybro's Avatar
Of all the weird threads over the years on GS, this has got to be one of the deeper rabbit holes.
Old 13 hours ago
  #406
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
Perhaps you are confused since the fret locations (and distance between frets) are different depending on scale lengths. So putting a capo on is not going to make a difference in fatness. If you put a capo on it will just make things even thinner. If you want a little fatter you can try to tune down, give that a try.
That may be a common perception but it is false. If you replace the 1st fret with the nut, what used to be the 13th fret becomes the 12th and is still exactly half way to the bridge. The scale length just changed. It is not the distance between frets that changes it is the RATE of change which is a simple logarithmic relationship. If that weren't so no guitar would ever be in tune all the way up the neck regardless of scale length.

BTW while I think it is possible to learn something new from just about anyone, something as fundamental as what we are talking about here I learned before you were a gleam in your Daddy's eye. I lived it. I worked at it...professionally and with players with names I've seen you mention in your posts. It is certainly possible you know something about guitars and amps I don't but it is highly unlikely given your track record here, and this about fret distances is but another example of mistaken.assumptions. Sorry, Bro. It is you who are confused on this issue.
Old 12 hours ago
  #407
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audioforce's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
Of all the weird threads over the years on GS, this has got to be one of the deeper rabbit holes.
I did switch to a "Jump the Shark" avatar in reference to, and recognition of, this thread.



Best,


audioforce
Old 11 hours ago
  #408
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chrischoir's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
That may be a common perception but it is false. If you replace the 1st fret with the nut, what used to be the 13th fret becomes the 12th and is still exactly half way to the bridge. The scale length just changed. It is not the distance between frets that changes it is the RATE of change which is a simple logarithmic relationship. If that weren't so no guitar would ever be in tune all the way up the neck regardless of scale length.

BTW while I think it is possible to learn something new from just about anyone, something as fundamental as what we are talking about here I learned before you were a gleam in your Daddy's eye. I lived it. I worked at it...professionally and with players with names I've seen you mention in your posts. It is certainly possible you know something about guitars and amps I don't but it is highly unlikely given your track record here, and this about fret distances is but another example of mistaken.assumptions. Sorry, Bro. It is you who are confused on this issue.
You don't come across as someone who is professional or overly knowledgeable, TBH. Not to mention "log" is a scale it does not imply a rate of change. To find the rate of change of log you need to know the base then you need to find the derivative. So in other words log base 10 the derivative would be 1/((ln(b)*x) where b = base. so 1/(ln(10)*x) or . Perhaps you are confusing rate of change with magnitude? You clearly are grasping at straws at this point. Cut your losses.
Old 10 hours ago
  #409
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audioforce's Avatar
 

Using the latest analytical methods, in keeping with my new "Jump the Shark" Avatar and my proprietary new Gearslutz Thread Classification System ["GTCS"], I have determined that this thread is now designated as a "Two Shark Thread".

As many of you are doubtless aware, at a mere 14 pages, the thread is rapidly approaching a Three Shark designation.

These are exciting times indeed!



Best of luck to all in the water,


audioforce [Shark Jumper]
Old 3 hours ago
  #410
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Mikhael's Avatar
 

Well, I'm out. This thread has become too ridiculous to continue, not to mention we're nowhere near the original topic.
Old 3 hours ago
  #411
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enorbet2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir View Post
You don't come across as someone who is professional or overly knowledgeable, TBH.
Considering this is from a guy who (among other things listed in another post) imagined "playing outside" meant "out of doors", I think I will cut my "losses" by letting our respective posts remain as evidence of exactly who is professional and knowledgeable.

A question though to demonstrate your willingness to examine and fact check arguments, did you actually recently, or ever, measure and compare the distance from the 1st fret to the 13th fret to the 13th fret to the bridge?
Old 2 hours ago
  #412
Gear Guru
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
Of all the weird threads over the years on GS, this has got to be one of the deeper rabbit holes.
Yeah when most of the people on it I've muted, it's kinda like watching an accident scene at this point....... or a CIA heavily redacted report......
Old 2 hours ago
  #413
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
Yeah when most of the people on it I've muted, it's kinda like watching an accident scene at this point....... or a CIA heavily redacted report......
Well, at least the innocent peripheral victims are protected from public humiliation.
Old 2 hours ago
  #414
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kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioforce View Post
I did switch to a "Jump the Shark" avatar in reference to, and recognition of, this thread.



Best,


audioforce
Yeah, let's continue to emphasize negligible triviality by pounding it silly. The beatings will continue until morale improves
Old 1 hour ago
  #415
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enorbet2's Avatar
ogarding the evolution of this thread, it was doomed from the start and may well have been posted for exactly that reason - to get a high page count. Trolls don't just live under bridges anymore. That said, the drift isn't really very far. Those who disagree that that tone woods make an appreciable difference are driven to back their claims by offering their views on what does. <mock Gomer Pyle voice engaged> Well surprise! surprise! Scale length reared it's ugly little head.
Old 1 hour ago
  #416
Gear Guru
Actually tone wood is a great topic. Really not sure how much in electrics but John made a good point about pickups behaving differently. I have a lot of questions about neck weight and bolt on/thru design (NOT SCALE LENGTH!). Fret seating can also have an effect on sound, certainly in acoustics....

Since this is a guitar player forum it'd be nice to hear from people that have real world opinions and not pulling Wiki and half baked theories out of their a*s.....
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